Author Topic: What happens to the jiva after death?  (Read 3502 times)

Hari

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What happens to the jiva after death?
« on: November 29, 2011, 12:17:59 PM »
Does jiva fall asleep like dreamless sleep? Or it goes to another world like astral plane, heaven, another dimension and so on? Does the soul go to the place which the religion it follows promise it? When jiva reincarnates it doesn't remember anything. What use of it? Are there people who when reincarnate they remember everything like Sri Krishna explains about Himself in Bhagavad Gita?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:20:52 AM by ramana1359 »

Subramanian.R

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 01:00:27 PM »
Dear ramana,

Death is like dreamless deep sleep. That is the nearest example Sri Bhagavan says. In death, mind which is otherwise called Jiva or Sukshma Sarira, takes the prana, i.e breath and takes a new birth. The interval of time, no one can say. There is no time in between death and re birth. The avatara
of Narayana are incarnations with a purpose. There are no vasanas for incarnations.

Sri Bhagavan used to ask, "are you born now, to ask about death and rebirth?" All births, death
and reirths are only for the mind. Otherwise, every one is Atma, eternal.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 01:46:02 PM »
Ramana has said as I can remember that for example Vishnu devotees will go to Vaikuntha, Shaivas to Kailasha and so on. How can that be if the jiva falls asleep?

Subramanian.R

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 02:42:50 PM »
Dear ramana,

The discussions on Kailasa and Vakunta are only for those who think they are the body.
Sri Bhagavan has said that the body itself is an illusion. So are the Kailasa and Vaikunta.
See Mercedes de Acosta's detailed discussion with Sri Bhagavan, Mountain Path, Oct. 1988.
you may access this issue in www.sriramanamaharshi.org.

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 10:12:27 AM »
Dear ramana

The question about what happens after the death of Ego is like asking, what happens after the death of a person who acted as Ravana. Does he really die as Ravana? Did Ravana, really exist in first place?

Or, it is like asking, what happens after the death of the child of a barren woman which was never born at all!

(note: Can a barren woman have a child at all?)

If somebody, swings his sword and cut your reflection in water, can you really die? so, the question is like asking what happens what happens after the sword is swung and cut your reflection in water!

It is like asking, what will happen to me after I am killed in my dream! Even though, we exist in our dream, do we really exist?

When somebody, with an intention to kill you, breaks the mirror, which has your reflection, really kills you?

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 10:34:33 AM by Nagaraj »



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Nagaraj

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 10:36:54 AM »
For, the Sun has never seen Darkness. It can never see the Darkness. Darkness never exists for the Sun. Is it even possible to convince the Sun, that there is Darkness? that the darkness is like this, like that? Where is darkness for the Sun?

the same way, Jiva is like the darkness which never really exists.

Can we request the darkness to stay a little longer till the Sun comes?  Is it possible even?

Jiva never really is!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 10:40:37 AM by Nagaraj »



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ksksat27

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 12:42:04 PM »
Ramana has said as I can remember that for example Vishnu devotees will go to Vaikuntha, Shaivas to Kailasha and so on. How can that be if the jiva falls asleep?

Dear 1359ramana,

Thanks for putting this question which has been asked by many at many different times.

You would appreciate that you are asking a question which is purely based on the experience once passes through and it cannot be answered by intellect alone.

During death,  for a split moment,  due to the excessive pain and the unusability of the body it has so far identified with,  the core element called the mind will go into a unconscious state that is based on pure ignorance. 

That state is timeless, spaceless, mind has submerged into the Atman but not with the pure awareness.  There is no sense organ or any instrument on that state to tell what is happening on that state. 

After this unconsious state,  mind may suddenly emerge out and enter into a dream like world based upon its tendencies.  This dream world can be very very high and holy like Kailash or Vaikunta.  Those who enter such a dream world will 99% never come back to earth with physcial body  (Annamalai Swami confirms this).   If at all they come back,  it will be like a great avatar like sundara murthi swamigal.

Now  otherwise,  every  ego-mind will emerge from the unconsious state into a dream project which will be very customized and no exact definition is possible. 

Once that dream is ended,  based on Ishwara Sankalpam, quite involuntarily,  the experience on the physical plane starts.

So between death of physical body --  emergence of a dream projection -->  there is a gap of unconsciousness.  Even though it is unconscious state,  it is the primordial state,  because  somebody is present to tell that he was unconsious.

Again after the dream projection -- physical body birth --> there is a gap of unconscious state.  Suddenly birth comes.

That is why Nisarghadatta Maharaj asked this question once:  you say you took birth.  How were you one day before your birth?  10 years before your birth?  That state is the primordial state.

And even on the day of birth,  in the hospital 500 children take birth --  500 bodies come into.  On that day  you dont identify yoruself with 1 out of 500 bodies.  That identification still not happened.  So on the day of your birth also, you were stil in that primordial unconsius state where you dont know anything. 

Two days after your birth -- mother is discharged from the hospital.  Are you aware of it?  No.

6 montsh after your birth -- are you aware of the sense organs and the body? No.

Then tell me this answer --  when on earth,  for the first time,,  you got the feeling 'I AM'?  When for the very first time you suddenly identified with the current body?  During your 1st year birthday? one day before that birthday celebrations?  or two days after ?  or before your 2nd year birthday?  When?  Exactly when?  No one can answer because that was the moola mayaaa.  It happens in a split moment --  in a micro split moment.  Moola mayaa. Moola mayaaa.

But if one deeply keep on asking this question again and again , again and again,  not looking for brain made answers ,  but a deep inquistive mind,  as one keeps ask this question,  fits of laughter will result forth.  It will spring from within.

I will continue if you can catch atleast what I am trying to convey -- but only as told by Nisarghadatta and Ramana.

Hari

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 10:54:59 PM »
Quote
After this unconsious state,  mind may suddenly emerge out and enter into a dream like world based upon its tendencies.  This dream world can be very very high and holy like Kailash or Vaikunta.  Those who enter such a dream world will 99% never come back to earth with physcial body  (Annamalai Swami confirms this).   If at all they come back,  it will be like a great avatar like sundara murthi swamigal.

When the mind "wakes up" in this subtler world will it remember it's "death" and the last life it has experienced?

Nagaraj

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 09:38:20 AM »
some of my humble discernments. There is nothing called mind, Mind never exists, There is no waking for mind or death of mind, and there is no experience for mind.

All this is just illusion! Mind itself never exists! The existence of Mind is like the existence of snake in snake-rope phenomenon!

Even, if anybody comes back as Avatar or great soul, who still remains to witness that avatar? is it you (us), that Self, I must be the only reality!

There is no going and coming back! Bhagavan sings in Arunachala Akshara Mana Malai 74 -

பொக்கும் வரவும்இல் பொதுவெளியினில் அருட்
பொராட் டங்காட்டு  அருணாசலா

In the wide open space of pure being, where there is
no going and no coming, reveal to me the joy of wrestling
with your Grace, O Arunachala.

There is no death of anything! One can never know ones birth or death! It is only perceived idea out of avidya!

There is no Jiva to Die!

Salutations to Bhagavan



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you have become the path itself”
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ksksat27

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 11:19:53 AM »
Quote
After this unconsious state,  mind may suddenly emerge out and enter into a dream like world based upon its tendencies.  This dream world can be very very high and holy like Kailash or Vaikunta.  Those who enter such a dream world will 99% never come back to earth with physcial body  (Annamalai Swami confirms this).   If at all they come back,  it will be like a great avatar like sundara murthi swamigal.

When the mind "wakes up" in this subtler world will it remember it's "death" and the last life it has experienced?

For those who reach Kailash or Vaikunta,  we can from our view piont assume safel that they are almost muktaas and tehir state cannot be described by us  -- if they rememebr or not their past lives.

But in huge other cases cases,  mind wont remember its previous body death or any of the incidents as such,   but the tendencies will be a continuation of the previous vasanas.  For instance,  a kaabaaligan (tantric guy),  when dies,  will take birth among the similar mind set tantricks and will have the exposure to cruel practicses of animal sacrifices, wine,  meat,  drums and beat from his early childhood in the next birth.  He will stirke a perfect syncrhonization and will be in-tune pursuing more and  more on this desires and vasanas.  But he will most probably will not correlate the fact that this was becasue of his past life in which also he was a kaabaaligaa.    Muudaa janmani janmani.  Here there will be a general attraction towards the past life tendencies but there is no exact remembrance.


Only for very very advnaced yogis, past life will be reveleaded but that also Nisarghadatta says that no jnani can explain how it all started though he may re-collect a number of his past lives.

Lakshmana Swami could re-collect being born as a great yogi,  a king and a chirstain father in his past births .  Papaji being a Krishna devotee saint in Tunga bandhra banks in his past life. 

But even with Buddha,  nobody can trace back to the first ,  very first "I am" feeling,  how it all started,  nobody can ascertain. 

That is why Nisarghadatta in his very last days,  discarded re-incarnation theory just like Ajata doctrine which Nagaraj explained in a different way.

It is very interesting when I question this,  when this "I am " feeling started for me,  in this brith,  for a moment forgetting all past births.  In this very birth itself,  that split moment,  the moment of maya is not traceable.  When on earth,  in this body,  did I have this first "I am "ness feeling?  One second before that,  where was "i"?  What was that state?  That is the primordial state. 

Hari

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 11:37:51 AM »
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For those who reach Kailash or Vaikunta,  we can from our view piont assume safel that they are almost muktaas and tehir state cannot be described by us  -- if they rememebr or not their past lives.

Not past lives. I mean the last life they've lived. But yet I suppose jivas in Kailash or Vaikuntha are not born again like children. So it's a little strange if you "wake up" lile adult not remembering "who you are" before that. If it's true you will not remember even who is Shiva or Vishnu. Whay kind of heaven that could be?

Subramanian.R

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 01:48:18 PM »
Dear ramana,

I wonder why you are so much confused about two parallel philosophies that are available in
Hinduism. These two meant for two different typesbof devotees. One is a typical conventional
way meant for people who wantvto keep their ego intact and do devotion and god related
deeds. This for who are happy with chariyai and kriyai. They write devotional poems, sing them,
and do temple work, like plucking flowers for garlands to God, grinding sandal paste for God,
bringing water for abhishekam to the idols.  In modern days too, we do this type of work,
slightly differently.  We go to templed/churches, pray and offer money in the hundi. Sri Ramana
did not discourage this.  Even in His days people went to temples and brought vibhuti and kumkum.
He took them too!  All the talks of talking about heaven, hell, Kailasa, Vaikunta, Indraloka and
Chandraloka --are for these people only!  You can see stories of Siva in Periya Puranam and Vishnu
in Azhwar's prabhandhams, are about such people.  Do not rush to speak of them, as some who
are inferior. They also attained liberation in 'their own way '.  Because they had sraddha,
interest with faith in godhead, which is matchless and something far higher than your faith
and interest in godhead.

The other way is the way of Upanishads, Gaudapada and Sri Sankara and Sri Bhagavan.  These
great sages DID NOT belittle this conventional way but showed a more DIRECT way, where you
can do Self Enquiry, ardently, sincerely (sraddha) and liberation which is WITHIN. There is no
temple or church here, no kriya or chariya, but simple Atma Vichara, sitting where you are.
No flowers -your mind is the glower. No sandal paste -you grind your ego and make it a sandal
paste for Atma within. God is within you, not in temple or church, not even in Tiruvannamalai
for that matter. God is within. God is Atma within. God is you and you are god!

Stick to one path. Do not speak ill of the other path. Be silent. Be still and pursue.
The two paths are like two horses running towards the same goal. Both will reach the
Goal. But do not try to ride both the horses simulataneously.

Arunachala Siva.

ksksat27

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 05:53:26 PM »
Quote
For those who reach Kailash or Vaikunta,  we can from our view piont assume safel that they are almost muktaas and tehir state cannot be described by us  -- if they rememebr or not their past lives.

Not past lives. I mean the last life they've lived. But yet I suppose jivas in Kailash or Vaikuntha are not born again like children. So it's a little strange if you "wake up" lile adult not remembering "who you are" before that. If it's true you will not remember even who is Shiva or Vishnu. Whay kind of heaven that could be?

Those who are constantly in anandamaya ghosam by long lasting bhakti while living alive will alone reach kailasham or vaikuntam.

For such highly elevated mahatmas,  God will himself spoon feed the mukthi,  nirguna brahman etc. etc.   

They wont think or contemplate on anything else like saradamma did when she constantly thought of her Guru.

Even when Shiva appeared and asked her to join,  she refused.   Where did that authority came from?  From pure bhakthi.  Krishna changed his form to Rama when Hanuman arrived.  Such is the greatness of bhakthi.

Kailaasa or Vaikunta is a very high elevated state of mind -- only love body will exist there  No need for breath or no need for time and space.

A pradosha kaalam (evening time) in Kailaasa will last for many yugas or according to Bhaktha's temparament.  It will be very different to every individual. 

The Brahman in its active form is Ishwara Shakthi .

Venkata shasthri according to Maharshi reached Brahman lokha. 

Such souls are very very elevated.   They dont have individual orientation itself to know past lives.

Subramanian.R

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 07:36:32 AM »
Dear all,

See the following conversation:-

Devotee:-  I want to go to Brahmaloka.  Please guide me...

Bhagavan:-  So you want to go to Brahmaloka?

Devotee:-  That is whact I am tring to obtain. That is what the Sastras prescribe.

Bhagavan:-  But where are you now?

Devotee:-  I am in your presence.

Bhagavan:-  Poor thing! You are here and now in Brahmaloka and you want to obtain it elsewhere!
Know it to be Brahmaloka where the Brahmanishta is. The Brahmanishta is the complete one and encompasses and transcends all that is manifest.  You are like a thirsty man wanting to drink water yet all the time standing nevk deep in the Ganga.  Let that 'I' that wants to obtain the Brahmaloka be dead
and the Brahman in you will be realized.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: What happens after death of the jiva?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 10:15:56 PM »
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I wonder why you are so much confused about two parallel philosophies that are available in Hinduism.

:) My confusion emerges only when I don't know the exact teaching of these philosophies. Anyway I accept all Hindu systems. My point was what will happen with the jiva after death according to the different philophies. Is death loss of consciousness or is it transition to another demention, another world and so on. My confusion arises when I read different things about death. One time it's said that after we die we lose consciousness, like in dreamless sleep. Another that we will go in astral world, another dimension, heaven, hell, Brahmaloka, Chandraloka, Vaikuntha, Kailasha and so on.
Quote
Do not rush to speak of them, as some who are inferior.

When have I said something even closer to that? I think my post were greately misunderstood.

Quote
All the talks of talking about heaven, hell, Kailasa, Vaikunta, Indraloka and Chandraloka --are for these people only!

And what about atheist? Or occultists? Or new agers? Pantheists? Naturalists?

Thanks for your answers in advance. :)