Author Topic: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?  (Read 3370 times)

srkudai

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What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« on: July 27, 2010, 05:49:22 PM »
I was doing my work when a friend pinged me and asked me about "Sadhu OM"
I said I respect him a lot, but disagree with some of his statements!
he was surprised! How can i disagree with some one like "Sadhu OM" ?

"David Godman respects him a lot", he said

"Yes, I know that", was my reply.

He finally said "Whats your problem with Sadhu OM?"

"These letters are in black color. if someone comes to me and says these are yellow, i cannot accept it... no matter who says it. Even if it is Ramana himself saying that, Its not about personalities! Its about the truth of the statement. if it is correct its correct even if some terrorist says that. and if it is wrong, even if Ramana says it, i cannot take it", I replied.


Nagaraj

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2010, 07:54:03 PM »
Dear I,

Pardon me for 'I' keep, responding your posts often with 'my' views.

The 'I' which is unable to accept/reject Sadhu Om/anything else, is simply the 'Ego' 'Mind' the lesser 'Self'.

Everything always is only describing and pointing only towards the Self alone. The rights and wrongs. Absolutely everything.

Who is the 'I' that says thus? that(Halaahala) has to merge into the Self (Siva)

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 08:52:18 PM by Nagaraj »



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amiatall

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 10:07:16 PM »
Everyone is unique with their own paths.

To Self it does not matter thoughts or no thoughts. But many does not even ever experience absence of thought, such strong identification. Absence of thought is an effect of remaining still, since there is no thought to swirl other thoughts, namely there is no 'I'-thought to move stream, thoughts gets lessened or should I say one becomes more detached from the stream and stream gets no energy.

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 11:54:13 PM »
Dear Udai Garu,

I agree with you.

I have repeatedly expressed my views in this forum regarding this.

As Bhagavan Ramana says,

Ananya saranagathi means to be without any attachment of thoughts, no doubt, but does it mean to discard thoughts even of food and water, etc., which are essential for the sustenance of the physical body? He asks, ‘should I eat only if I get anything by God’s direction, and without my asking for it? Or should I make a little effort?’ All right! Let us take it that what we have to eat comes of its own accord. But even then, who is to eat? Suppose somebody puts it in our mouth, should we not swallow it, at least? Is that not an effort?

In the book Sadhana Panchaka written by Sankara, it is stated, kshudvyadhischa chikitsyatam pratidinam bhikshoushadham bhudyatam’. It means, for treatment of the disease called hunger, eat food received as alms. But then, one must at least go out for bhiksha. If all people close their eyes and sit still saying if the food comes, we eat, how is the world to get on? Hence one must take things as they come in accordance with one’s traditions and must be free from the feeling that one is doing them oneself. The feeling that I am doing it is bondage. It is therefore necessary to consider and find out the method whereby such a feeling can be overcome, instead of doubting as to whether medicine should be administered if one is sick or whether food should be taken if one is hungry; such doubts will continue to come up and will never end. Even such doubts as, ‘May I groan if there is pain? May I inhale air after exhaling?’ also occur.

So thoughtlessness is not our real nature rather i would say without having any attachment of thoughts which does not implant vasanas are our real nature.

Quote
Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind. (Day by Day with Bhagavan, 12th April, 1946)
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silentgreen

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 09:04:10 AM »
It is God who has created Maya (which includes thoughts and forms) and it is God who has created the phenomemon of seeing (or being) beyond Maya through Self-Realisation.
Many spiritual aspirants tend to take "Maya to Self" in good spirit but "Self to Maya" in bad spirit. But it is their co-existence which makes the creation.

It is very difficult to really appreciate "Self to Maya", even though it is stated in many scriptures that Maya is but the "Leela of God", His play to express His intense Bliss. This is because an individual does not feel even a little of that bliss and so to feel a little maya (as thought forms etc) is misery for him. We find that the more a person feels the bliss of expansion within, the more thoughts he can endure or enjoy as play.

Only a Self-Realised person, whose pot has been broken (as Sri Ramakrishna said) and the fish now swims in the ocean of Sat-Cit-Ananda can understand how what appears to be Maya to individuals is actually a Leela of God.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 09:49:34 AM »
Our nature is thought-free,actionless,non-dual Self consciousness "I am".It is the basic form of Self consciousness.It is adjunct free.
This essential Self consciousness "I am" when mixed with adjuncts like body and mind,a compound consciousness results which is
devoid of Self knowledge i.e this compound consciousness has only object knowing capacity without the knowledge of the nature
of basic form of consciousness.This compound consciousness is mind centered around the imaginary experience of ourselves as a
body.To function in the phenomenal reality thought is required for this compond consciousness.But the problem arises when
we use thought where it has no role to play.For example the state of anger,fear etc are result of thought activity.So they
cannot be corrected by thought.But thought tries to manipulate anger or fear etc by suppressing it or justifying it.
This type of effort is a struggle to transform the anger or fear into their opposite states.Here thought has no role to play.Just the
perception of anger or fear etc is enough.In perception we don't do anything psychologically in form of thought activity.
It is simple looking into the state of anger or fear etc without the interference of thought and the burden of psychological past.
Here what is required is stilling of thought which is brought about by perception.Stilling of thought is not an action of will.
When anger happens,it happens.You cannot do anything about it.By being aware of this inward insufficiency "be with the anger"
with awareness.When we are aware we don't give energy to the anger but rather we will be aware of the factors which are
resulting in a state of anger.In that very awareness of network of anger we go beyond anger.Any effort by thought to correct
the anger is a distraction from being "aware" of the anger.So effort in the psychological arena is a struggle to transform the
"what is" like anger and fear,violence etc to what should be.In this struggle definitely there is unhappiness and misery.
When saints say thought brings misery and unhappiness all this is implied.They do not mean to say thought has no
role to play in the outside phenomenal reality,if we want to go back to our house from office thought is required,
to draft a message like this thought is required.Thought and body are the tools in the hands of consciousness but
thought and body are not our essential nature.We continue to exist in our basic form of consciousness without them.
Till you experience your basic form of consciousness for yourself you continue to doubt whether such a state exist at all.
Self-inquiry is meant to make you experience your basic form of consciousness and to function from that center instead of
functioning from the ego which is to function from the burden of psychological past which is essentially limited.
When we function from a limited entity our action is limited and never complete and such an action however sincere
results in incomplete action which results in duality,conflict and perennial strife.So thought should be used where it has a
role to play in physical dimension like technology,fulfilling the basic needs of the body but it should not be used as an
instrument to solve the psychological problems born out of relating with others with a separative feelings.If one tries
to manipulate there with thoughts misery is certain.
pvssnraju

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 10:40:23 AM »
Quote
Thought and body are the tools in the hands of consciousness but thought and body are not our essential nature.

well said raju garu and udai garu.

Yes our nature is thought-free,actionless,non-dual Self consciousness "I am".

But to achieve this as Dr raju garu and guru ramana says we need to make use of few thoughts and body i.e use them as tools.

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2010, 10:52:54 AM »
Reason why said earlier that "thoughtlessness is not our real nature rather i would say without having any attachment of thoughts which does not implant vasanas are our real nature" because atleast in waking/dream state few thoughts are 100% required and we cannot avoid few basic thoughts like food,drink etc.

So in theory yes Our nature is thought-free,actionless,non-dual Self consciousness "I am".

But practically atleast in waking and dream states without having any attachment of thoughts which does not implant vasanas is our real nature.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 12:40:17 PM »

Dear everyone,

Whether one likes Sri Sadhu Om or not, one has to agree with
Bhagavan Ramana, who said that thoughtless state is only abidance
in the Self. - Atma Nishta.

See ULLadu Narapadu, first benedictory verse, which reads:

Could there be a being-consciousness existing apart from that which is eternally is?  Since that Reality exists in the Heart, FREE OF THOUGHTS, who could meditate upon that Reality, called the Heart?
Know that to remainwithin the Heart, as it is, is truly to meditate
upon the Heart. 

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 383 says:

The impure mind that is frightened and perplexed, as if it has
been intoxicated by drinking alcohol, is alone the Jivatma [the individual self] that is mentally confused and confounded, believing
that it is really bound by the bond of karma.  If the mind, without
desiring and reveling in sense objects perceived through objective
consciousness [compounded consciousness as Dr. Raju said], abides
in the Self without slipping from it, then that extremely pure mind
alone will be the Paramatma [Supreme Self] that shines, in a clarified state, as the attribute free consciousness.

Again GVK Verse 379 says:

O foolish mind, you have wallowed in suffering by desiring the trivial pleasures of this world and the next [heaven]! If you remain still
WITHOUT THOUGHTS, you will certainly attain the supreme bliss of the liberation that transcends both of these. 

The child is mistaken to be thought free, because WE DO NOT KNOW ITS THOUGHTS. When the child cries for milk, it merely cries, it does not speak and it cannot make its thoughts for milk to be known by
words. A new born child when kept by mother on her laps, looks
for the breasts.  How does it know that there is food for it in the
breasts of the mother?  There are no words of course, but there are
thoughts for the child too.



Arunachala Siva.

prasanth_ramana_maharshi

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 12:48:42 PM »
well said Subramanian garu.

What i meant to explain in my previous posts is nicely put In Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 383.

Quote
The impure mind that is frightened and perplexed, as if it has been intoxicated by drinking alcohol, is alone the Jivatma [the individual self] that is mentally confused and confounded, believing that it is really bound by the bond of karma.  If the mind, without desiring and reveling in sense objects perceived through objective consciousness [compounded consciousness as Dr. Raju said], abides in the Self without slipping from it, then that extremely pure mind alone will be the Paramatma [Supreme Self] that shines, in a clarified state, as the attribute free consciousness.

This is exactly what i want to convey previously in my earlier posts.

Also As Dr Raju garu says,

Quote
Destruction of tendencies amounts to destruction of the ego. In English it is termed as no mind state(Amanaska state in vedantic jargon).In this state all physiological functions continue through mind but only the anomaly of volition(sankalpa) and doubt(vikalpa) is destroyed forever.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 12:50:21 PM by prasanth_ramana_maharshi »
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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 01:08:17 PM »
Thanks a lot for your encouragement and kind suggestions udai garu.

All posts in this forum have been very much useful and it helped me a lot in my sadhana and i am grateful to udai garu,Dr raju garu,silentgreen garu, Subramanian garu,nagaraj garu,lakshmi garu,ramanadulai garu and graham garu and each and every member in this forum.

We all belong to ramana's family and we should always be united though we may differ in our opinions some times.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 01:53:56 PM »

Dear srkudai, prasanth and others,

Bhagavan Ramana clearly meant that abidance in the Self is only
after the ending of thought waves.  In Sri Arunachala Akshara Mana
Maalai, Verse 57, He says:

When will the waves of thought in my mind end, so that I may reach
you O Arunachala, subtle ethereal being?   


Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2010, 01:59:37 PM »

Dear prasanth,

We are all not able to comprehend "the thoughtless state of mind",
because we have still not attained it.  We are like a newly married
bride.  What is sexual union, will be comprehended by her, only when
she comes out of the nuptial room in the next morning.  Till such time, it is all theory and book learning.

We are also like a pupa inside the cocoon, not knowing what is meant to be a larva and a grown up insect?   Because, we have still not broken the wall of the cocoon, "the wall of thoughtful state".

Sri Ramakrishna says that a mother gives a chit telling that the son
should buy fish and vegetables.  Once the purchase is made, where
is the need for the chit?  We are still keeping the chit.  We are yet
to buy the fish and vegetables!

Arunachala Siva.

   

Nagaraj

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2010, 03:33:30 PM »
Dear I,

Very simply put! Cannot be said in a better way! Realising thus, one can only surrender and give up. What else can we do, all else is vain. Even the minute bit of ego gives up if one realises this!.... Every attempt of ours in realising the Self is limited. Sharanagati is inevitable!

The silence that one comes into after this realisation that the only realisation that 'I' can get is the realisation of the limitedness of itself - 'I' and simply remain! What else can we - 'I' do? This is the silence of wisdom!


We are all not able to comprehend "the thoughtless state of mind",
because we have still not attained it.  We are like a newly married
bride.  What is sexual union, will be comprehended by her, only when
she comes out of the nuptial room in the next morning.  Till such time, it is all theory and book learning.

We are also like a pupa inside the cocoon, not knowing what is meant to be a larva and a grown up insect?   Because, we have still not broken the wall of the cocoon, "the wall of thoughtful state".

Sri Ramakrishna says that a mother gives a chit telling that the son
should buy fish and vegetables.  Once the purchase is made, where
is the need for the chit?  We are still keeping the chit.  We are yet
to buy the fish and vegetables!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 03:37:51 PM by Nagaraj »



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SLakshmi

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Re: What is my problem with Sadhu OM ?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 04:12:46 PM »
prasanthji,

well said. We are all learners. hence sometimes differences in opinion. but all are one big ramana family. we as youngsters should respect elders and let them pave the way. So, its sadhakas like subramanian sir, uday sir, raju sir, viswanathan sir and others who set the path..

ramanarpamastu