Author Topic: How to deal with dislikes?  (Read 9727 times)

vinita

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2009, 01:56:37 PM »
Dear Skrudai,

 :)
"Outside" for me is what i percieve with my senses. "Inside" for me is my thoughts, emotions, imagination. I am conscious of the outside and the inside. But i am not conscious of what is beyond my sensory perceptions and my thought perceptions.

The Superconciousness (by that i mean being concious of something beyond the body and the mind/emotions) is not in my experience of things.

Therefore i call myself unaware....which may also be called living in duality.
:(

matthias

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2009, 04:21:34 PM »
as you are an dedicated advaitin I suggest these books (remeber that I feel that it is bhagawan wish that I study this buddhist system):

http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/old_man_basking_in_the_sun.htm <----I read this one a the present, incredible powerfull

http://www.keithdowman.net/books/fg.htm

from keith dowman my dzogchen teacher and further of his teacher HH Dudjom rinpoche:

http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Nectar-Dudjom-Rinpoches-Foundation/dp/155939224X

I tink this books will deepen your understanding of Advaita...because they spring from the same source


when I sit down to meditate I always cry :) its natural these days alot of dirt is surfacing...physical, metal and subtle barries crumbling

I think this tears are the most precious tears....not tears more like diamonds

vinita

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2009, 06:24:30 PM »
dear srkudai,

i think i understand where we are heading... ;D

of course it is "i" who is behind all this...the sensory perceptions, the thoughts, etc. But then is that "i" the SELF? i know the i of the eye perception...but i dont know the SELF.

yes, it is dualism.

 ;D

vinita

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2009, 12:25:48 AM »
Dear Srkudai,

Consciousness just recognizes the presence ... consciousness neither wants a particular thought nor rejects a particular thought... it just IS , thoughts of want, rejection etc keep passing it.

This requires practice. For me thoughts of want, rejection, etc. don't pass, but stay...linger on...or get replayed again and again...

i am conscious of this. But what is the use of this conciousness if i cannot change the force of habit???? :(

matthias

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2009, 12:32:37 AM »
http://www.keithdowman.net/books/fg.htm#Flight%20of%20the%20Garuda

an excerpt of fly of the garuda...wonderfull verses

please see              www.keithdowman.net   for additional material

I do not know if there is "basic" knowledge of dzogchen...it is based on three precepts of the great master garab dorje

all writings are based on this three short senteces....but anyway read the above verses and you will get an good idea about dzogchen

much love
matthias

Nagaraj

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2009, 05:08:59 PM »
Dear Udai :)

Infact my post is an inspiration form Echart Tolle's book only. It is one book that has influenced me so much. It has widened and broadened my outlook towards Spirituality and enlightenment. Its definitely a wonderful book for any person who is on a spiritual journey. His teachings are so lucid and more importantly PRACTICE-ABLE.

I have heard about Thich Nhat Hanh, and I know he was a Buddhist teacher whose teachings are quite similar to those  of Echart's, but I have not got a chance to read his teachings. I will check out the website you have provided.

Like you said, :) even I have wondered and felt happy many times conversing with you over topics here. Firstly, I was set at rest because when I saw your replies and your points, I could see the same quest in you just as mine in the same way! I also felt that Ok!, I seem to be going on the correct path and not backwards :). I don't see myself as an orthodox student of spirituality, I mean, I am quite open to various interpretations of the grand Truth. I always appreciate the Truth in most abstract forms. There are so many perspectives. Its like the moon, the sun and the stars look the same from where ever you see it, from any country! ( :D Yep! there is no route !)

True, one cannot but be a witness always. reminding oneself as the witness is to only to become aware of ones true Nature - the eternal I.
Whether one is aware or not, one is always a witness. But if one is not conscious about this, He becomes Witnessed - This is the Key here - to remain as just the Witness and not Witnessed or Witnessing...  This is the difference between Conscious awareness -Witness or witness-er or the "I" and Unconscious awareness - Witnessed!

Thanks Udai :), in many ways you too have played a key role in making me understand things when I went haywire. I too pray to you, Brother! Sri Ramana be with you always!

Love,
Nagaraj




“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
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Nagaraj

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2009, 05:32:39 PM »
Dear Vinita / Udai,

I just remembered Arjuna in the Battlefield when I read this written by Udai -

But irrespective of the mental habits ... once one knows one is the Consciousness ... how does it matter what habits are there of mind ? who cares to change. one just remains as consciousness ... this too is proper attitude.

We are all verily Arjuna stuck in the Battlefield of Life in search of "Enlightenment" and Krishna is nothing but the "Consciousness" one this Krishna (Consciousness) took over Arjuna, none of his actions were able to affect him. He got the wisdom (rather he is the wisdom itself!) and did not bother about his actions of killing his own blood relatives. His Vasanas - Habits did not anymore affect him. He became a SthithaPryagna. Arjuna is said to be Nara Narayana. Like the unification of Shiva and Shakti, this is the unification of Nara and Narayana.

Later even when Arjuna heard the death of Krishna, all other pandavas cried with pain at the loss of Krishna whereas Arjuna was least affected!

What ever opinions or thinking happens just be aware of it. being aware of itself is consciousness. no need to analyse or bother. Let the analysis happen. Let the process go on with your awareness! initially you can start acknowledging your own thoughts to it by saying "ok", "Oh, is it?", "I see", "Good, Great, carry on", etc... as though you are corresponding to another person and letting that person be and carry on his/her duties. once you get a grip of this "I" nothing will affect you. For all the role is not being played by you for you are that "I" the awareness or consciousness. the one that is playing the role, thinking, analysing is the Not you. Don't worry about the Mystery of "you" awareness/consciousness and the "Actor" on the "Non-I" the unconsciousness who does all actions!

:)

Nagaraj



“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
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Nagaraj

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2009, 06:15:02 PM »
The Msytery of the Present moment can be made easy like this -  As long as you are conscious/aware or awareness - Witnessing You are in the Present Moment. Whenever you are Unconscious or not aware not witnessing you are either in Past or the Future.

It is this consciousness alone Sri Ramana taught to Sri Ganapathy Muni when he first Met The Great Sage -

He had met the yet-to-be-called Sri Ramana on the southern slopes of Arunachala. One day he was assailed by pains, troubles, doubts. He remembered that the young Swami was on the hill, and at midday, a little after noon, he climbed and found him sitting outside Virupaksha cave, alone. He prostrated and said, "All the scriptures that have to be read, I have read. All the mantras and japa that have to be done, I have done. Still I have no peace. Please save me." The young Swami took a little time. For at least fifteen minutes he silently gazed at him. Then in Tamil, he spoke. The English translation is simple:

"If one watches whence the notion 'I' arises, the mind is absorbed in That; that is tapas. When you recite a mantra, watch where the sound is coming from, within you; when you sing a song or prayer, watch where it is emanating from: your Heart. Put your attention on That. That is tyaga, that is TAPASYA, that is all."

Consciousness is THIS - watching the notion "I" arising - all the activities that go on. when one is aware of this i.e. being a witness to all that is happening That is being described here by Ramana. This is being in the NOW or the present Moment. when this watching is not there - one is lost in either past of the future.

When you are the Consciousness there is no Future or Past because it is not possible to become aware/conscious for your past or your future! Both are not there. If at all you want to be conscious or aware are be the consciousness It is only possible NOW and only now This Very Moment. any planning for future or thinking about whether you ever were aware of this conscious in the past is all part of past.

This is Tapasya - It is Tapas as long as it becomes your True Nature - Your natural state. Sri Ramana always remained as this consciousness - the eternal I.

Nagaraj





“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
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vinita

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2009, 08:57:12 PM »
Dear Srkudai, Nagraj,

thanks for your responses.

face each habit and being a witness, slowly undo it. this is mental work, needs effort and happens slowly.

yes, it is hard and slow work...and very often i get disillusioned. but i also know that there is no alternative.

have read books, done various practices....am still doing them, in the hope that identification with habits will snap. but progress is pretty slow....and i feel frustrated at the slow progress.

the secret of course is to dwell more and more in the i awareness....which may be eckhart tolle's NOW. Habits are always of the past...compulsions that arise out of some deep seated conditioning / karmas?

but this as usual is theorising...and not the real thing, perhaps.

sadhana, sadhana and more sadhana is required. sometimes it seems to be a long dark tunnel with no light at the end...

but as u said, we dont know when the tree will flower...or how long the wait / tunnel is.



matthias

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 12:29:42 PM »
dear vinita

what skrudai says is very important, you see taking the fact that everything is the self and that you are that should be the one and only view...

think about it at first and then it will be selfevident (the self is allways the one and only fact...allways)

meditate upon the fact that what arises right now is natural perfection...it is totally unbound and self liberated....we cannot see this from the beginning, but we should meditate about it and take it wherever we go..

I do not understand why we should begin a fight with our mind? it will always be the mind that fights himself...it is totally baseless

remember bhagawan? the thief turning into the policeman?.....it is the truth

there is a wonderfull stanza in longchepas treasury of natural perfection please read it carefully:


Everything is impermanent and bound to perish-
haw can a tight mesh of body, speech and mind
reach out and touch its own indestructible core?

so if we aspire to the supreme state of being,
we should cast aside all childish games that fetter
and exhaust body speech and mind;


to be honest dear vinita I stood up some time ago, I had no meditaiton, no breakfast, I do not feel well, Iam in some way tight, my body feels tight not relaxed my mind is also tight, very anxious Iam hungry no coffe ( no coffee!!!!).....and? whats the matter, I do not live in a totally illuminated mind and body....I would be a serious lier if I would tell you this....but the thing is that I know who Iam...I trust the scriptures, I do not jsut read them....I trust the words and the meanings...
if the scriptures say that Iam sat chit ananada (even If i really do not feel like beeing sat chit ananda)...I do not argue, it is a plain fact for me....and when it does not feel like the truth who cares? samsara and nirvana are both unreal...moksha and maya are both just a trick of the mind....why believe in a lier?

this means that I life the fact that everything that arises is itself the medicin, it may feel like poisen but I simply know it is the medicin....so when I feel rather bad like now...I do not mind...because I know htat the feeling is my own special medicin...

so I came to the conclusion that a very important thing for me, as a mini yogi, is that I live from this knowledge...may it be a thought, a feeling or deeper....I do not longer trust my mind and body..I trust this knowledge

vinita

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2009, 12:35:46 AM »
dear srkudai, dear mathias,

there is something in what u say that makes immense sense...but there are contradictions within.

you say:

No practise is going to help you get beyond habit patterns.

i would like to agree with this....but on the other hand many gurus lay a lot of store by consistent practice. i have been experimenting with various types of practices because i think they are important for inculcating discipline. the essential thing, gurus say, is not to expect anything...just go on doing whatever it is that is considered as practice (it could be doing girivalam ((there are people who do it everyday, or maybe once a fortnight or once a month), it could be doing japa, it could be meditation, prayanama, or even homam)).

though i have been doing some of these practices for some time i have not been able to break habits. sometimes i blame myself for not being sincere enough or not being able to surrender myself completely to practices.

the method of self-enquiry had appealed to me almost 30 years back...but that too i could not practice sincerely.

as consciousness you are untouched and are not worried about discomfort

but where is the consciousness??????? there are worries, there are discomforts because the consciousness is missing in my day to day existence....because i have not enquired deep enough.

the vasanas, the habits have me in their grip precisely for this reason, i am conscious of that. But i have not been dwelling in this consciousness so that i could rise 6 inches above the habits, see them objectively...and ultimately shake them off ...

yes, it is a painful and a very uncomfortable existence when the light of consciousness is not strong enough to hang on to...or see things clearly...because thoughts, emotions, feelings come in the way.

practicing self enquiry is a form of sadhana too...and it may be as important as other forms of sadhana...However, the problem i have at the moment is that nothing seems to be yielding results...because i consider the acid test of all types of sadhana to be...to become.... an untouched being who is perpetually blissfull....perpetually conscious.

Mathias, you say:

I do not longer trust my mind and body..I trust this knowledge

For me, though i "know" somewhere deep down that i am neither the body nor the mind...in my present state of existence/consciousness i remain rooted in the body and the mind.

in other words, i have no experience of chidananada, shivoham, shivoham....

but i will keep on exploring.....because i am convinced there is nothing in life that is more important than this!!!

 :)





Subramanian.R

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2009, 11:51:26 AM »
dear vinita,

"I shall keep on exploring"  -  This is the persevernce that
Bhagavan Ramana insisted.  Everyone cannot have a death
experience and realize the Truth in 20 minutes like Bhagavan.
The vasanas are high or low in each case.  When Cow Lakshmi
was liberated by Bhagavan, He did not stay with Lakshmi till her
last breath.  Whereas He stayed with His Mother till her last breath curled up in the Heart.  When someone asked why He
did not stay with Lakshmi till the end, Bhagavan Ramana, "Where were vasanas for her?  They were only a few and they got cleared up and so I did not stay with her till the end.  Mother
was not like that.  My assistance was necessary till the end."

So, the perseverence is the key word.

And you say, "Liberation is the most important thing."  This is also very true.  Bhagavan Ramana has also said, mumukshatvam, desiring the Self relentlessly is the only thing that one should have."

Both your points are excellent.  Let us not worry about our
carry bags of vasanas.  They will all go away one by one, it takes time. It requires perseverence.   The goal must be kept in mind constantly.   

Arunachala Siva.

vinita

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2009, 10:36:41 PM »
dear srkudai,

when i say that things have not worked...but i will keep on trying, it includes various things...including trying to know the "i".

there must be some deficiency in the way i do things...or / and my conditioning must be very deep rooted ...which is the reason i feel so shackled....and which is the reason why i have not got rid of my ridiculous fears / anxieties.

of course i am conscious of this. but this is obviously not enough.

remaining conscious of my limitations is one thing. identifying myself with limitations is quite another. i have not been able to break the identification chain...i have not included in my experience the "i" consciousness that is free of limitations. and that is the root of the problem, i think.

the unidentified i consciousness has to be experienced strongly so that the identification of the self with the "unreal" dissipates. this has not happened so far for me....

so the search with various forms of sadhana continues...including the search for a "permanent" experience of the i....

maybe i am not making much sense. all these things are too much of the mind. how do u separate consciousness from the mind????? how can u be sure that when u "watch" yourself by being "conscious", this too is not a mind thing??? :-[

sometimes everything appears to be like panini's grammar :-\ to this Muda mathe :(


Nagaraj

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2009, 11:04:49 PM »
"That which makes the enquiry is the ego. The 'I' about which the enquiry is made is also the ego. As the result of the enquiry, the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist." - Sri Ramana Maharshi

In this way, the one that feels "I am conscious of this" is the ego, and the one that also says "this is also not enough" is also the ego,  every opinions, learning etc... is only the ego's play.  The one that says "aybe i am not making much sense. all these things are too much of the mind. how do u separate consciousness from the mind?? how can u be sure that when u "watch" yourself by being "conscious", this too is not a mind thing???" is also the ego

"One goes through all sorts of austerities to become what one already is" - Sri Ramana Maharshi

Therefore, the one that is making the enquiry itself is the search! how can one look at ones own back? how can one look at ones own eyes? (not through the mirror) so simply illustrated by Kabir -

Kasturi Kundal Base
Mrug Dhoondhe Ban Maahi
Jyo Ghat Ghat Ram Hai
Duniya Dekhe Nahi

A deer has the fragrance in itself and runs throughout the forest for finding it. similarly the one that is making the search is the same self, is actually in search of itself -

In the same Self - The one that is making the Search is called or termed as the ego and
the one that the Self is in search of is also itself!

"......The best course is therefore is to remain silent and be just a witness." - Sri Ramana Maharshi

"He is Jnani who sees he is the Self  and it is on that Self as the screen that the various cinema-pictures of what is called the world pass. he remains unaffected by the shadows which play on the surface of that screen" - Sri Ramana Maharshi

Nagaraj



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matthias

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Re: How to deal with dislikes?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2009, 11:55:20 AM »
dear vinita

I think you are on the right track, just drop some of the missunderstandings and you will make further "progress".....

the very fact that you came to ramana maharshi is an indication that you have a strong and genuin praxis....you could end up in TM, or some other strange corners of the modern spiritual circus

first I give you another nice verse

you wrote:

......and which is the reason why i have not got rid of my ridiculous fears / anxieties.


Then, aware of all good and bad stuff as the basic reality,
You become liberated.
Neurotic emotions are great awareness,
They're to a yogi as trees are to a fire—FUEL!


-Maitripa

what does it mean? it means that when fear arises two things are present without the smallest boundery...these two things are on one side the Self and on the other side the phenomenal realm(fear)...so you have the nature of mind (emptiness, light, primordial space, unmanifested beeing etc...) and what appears in it...in reality there is no gap between these two....world=illusion, brahaman alone is real, world=brahman.....this is the whole essence of every non dual view...

and therefor neurotic emotions are great awareness....please stop to think they will cease...all the struggle, pain worry will continue....why worry about them when they are the display of your Self?

you continue:
of course i am conscious of this. but this is obviously not enough

no it is never enough for the mind, but in reality it is all there is..and all that is neccessary

you continue:
remaining conscious of my limitations is one thing. identifying myself with limitations is quite another. i have not been able to break the identification chain


first you are concious of the limitations....this "knowing" of the things comes first and then you identify with them, and this identification means samsara for you and me and all others...but in fact nondual school plainly say samsara and nirvana (nirvanais here: staying just with the "knowing" factor of the awareness) are equally empty, not existing in reality....and this reality is never part of you expereince...the actual nature of mind is never an object, a goal, a breakthrough...please stop to think that you will earn it, or that you have lost it....

these two extrems of gain and loss are total senseless.....all there is is awareness, the here and now.....you can not say AH now the moment is here....or NO the moment is not here...both are equally baseless ideas...

you continue:
the unidentified i consciousness has to be experienced strongly so that the identification of the self with the "unreal" dissipates. this has not happened so far for me....

there is nothing that is unreal, if you say there is someting that is unreal it implies that there something that is real(and hte other way arround)...but in reality all unreal is gone...and reality is all that is right now....look in this moment, look directly into the moment that arises right now, can you say that it is unreal? can you say it is real? it is beyond these two extremes...it is not unreal but if you look closely it is also not real...

again you always cast the impression that you want an expereince, first a deep one and then an continues flow of this extremely blissfull experience...you see, pray to ramana, meditate on him and he will give you illuminations of this type...I had some...but they do not help that much...they are like limonade on the way through the dessert, like subramanian said after I posted them in the forum..

you see if you not stop to grave something else then what is right now you will constantly miss the point...these extreme graving spoils what is naturally here and now...it is simply present, this moment comes unasked, nobody say BE or DONT BE....no one can choose or refute this moment...not even ramakrishna was so powerfull to say MOMENT stop, or MOMENT come into presence...and it is this small presence, this small moment that contains the answer...not the big incredible strong illuminations...they are openings...not the clearing...not the watcher....