Author Topic: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry  (Read 15365 times)

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Paradox of Advaita
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2009, 01:57:07 PM »
“There is no such thing as realising the Self ” – Bhagavan has
often said this in order to remind those who asked that the
Self alone is, now and eternally, and is not something new to
be discovered. This paradox is of the essence of non-dualism"


In answer to a question as to what is the best way to the goal,
Bhagavan said: ‘There is no goal to be reached. There is nothing to
be attained. You are the Self. You exist always. Nothing more can
be predicated of the Self than that it exists. Seeing God or the Self
is only being the Self, that is yourself. Seeing is Being. You, being
the Self, want to know how to attain the Self. It is like a man being
at Ramanasramam and asking how many ways there are of going
to Ramanasramam and which is the best way for him. All that is
required of you is to give up the thought that you are this body and
give up all thoughts of external things or the non-Self. As often as
the mind goes out towards objects, stop it and fix it in the Self or
‘I’. That is all the effort required on your part.'

Despite this paradox, however, Bhagavan also stressed the
necessity of effort.


Ceaseless practice is essential until one attains without the
least effort that natural and primal state of mind which is free
from thought, in other words, until the ‘I’, ‘my’ and ‘mine’ are
completely eradicated and destroyed.

It is in order to safeguard the viewpoint that there is nothing
new to be discovered that Advaita explains that it is only a
question of removing the screen of ignorance, just as by
removing water-plants one reveals beneath them the water
that was already there, or as the removal of clouds reveals the
blue sky that is there already but was hidden by them.

The Self always is. There is no knowing it. It is not
some new knowledge to be acquired. What is new and not here
and now cannot be permanent. The Self always is, but
knowledge of it is obstructed and the obstruction is called
ignorance. Remove the ignorance and knowledge shines forth.
In fact, it is not the Self that has this ignorance or even
knowledge. These are only accretions to be cleared away. That
is why the Self is said to be beyond knowledge and ignorance.
It remains as it naturally is – that is all.

Sometimes people complained of the difficulty of quelling
thoughts. Bhagavan brought them round again to Self-enquiry
by reminding them that it is the thinker or, in case of doubt,
the doubter whom one must examine. There may be a thousand
doubts, but one does not doubt the existence of the doubter.
Who is he?


- Sri Ramana




“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17366
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2009, 06:09:53 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Yes. Sadhana is only  for the 'middle class' people, as in many other aspects of life!

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2009, 07:59:59 PM »
Dear Udai,

Very true,

Sadhana is necessary for those persons who are not able to firmly establish themselves as the Self at all times.

The word Sadhana itself means 'leading straight to a Goal' or 'establishment of Truth' or 'accomplishment' or 'completion' or 'perfection'

Its like the Balance scale - weighing equally in the middle.

neither prejudiced by past not in fear of the future. The moment only the moment.

Sadhana is necessary only if the weighing scale is imbalanced either this way or the other.

Nagaraj





“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17366
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2009, 11:29:48 AM »
Yesterday, in a TV serial someone was telling:  All Jnana Sastras,
are not necessary for an outright fool, because he cannot make
use of them.  They are also not necessary, for a realized person,
because he knows the purport of Jnana Sastras.  These are only
for the middlings, who does not know, but who wants to know.

Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2009, 02:12:11 PM »
Some months back, I happened to see a discovery channel programme, A young Buddhist monk somewhere near Nepal Tibet border sat under a Banyan Tree for months together and it caught the attention of the Discovery channel crew members and they made a documentary of the young monk. The set few cameras for covering the young monk's activities continuously. This exercise was carried on for a period of more than 3 months.

The Young monk did not move an inch, nor opened his eyes, nor had food of water. It seems he took a vow to meditate for 13 years till he becomes a Buddha or the enlightened.

Hearing about this young monks intense Tapas, his Guru came to him and had his Darshan and left. This Guru spoke to the Discovery crew members about some yogic techniques, breath and others by which one is able to attract the moisture in the Atmosphere and other energies in the air by which a Yogi can sustain His body and remain with water or food for days together.

about 3 months passed by the crew members still find the young Monk unmoved. Huge crowds began flocking around the monk and some people who were guarding the monk created a circle and began collecting money from people who wanted to have darshan of the monk. Soon there was a lot of disturbances.

The Young Monk one night sometime after 3 months got up and went into the forest and no one could trace his whereabouts. The close associates said that the monk wanted solitude and left the place.

It was an interesting documentary. I was reminded of Bhagawan who remained motionless of ?? number of weeks in the Pathala Linga Shrine.

What stops us from such deep enquiry? They say its because of our Vasanas. Either we don't have the 100% desire for Self enquiry, we usually have 50% 60% 70% or so and the rest 50% 40% or 30% for worldly desires. we want both! thats the whole problem!

The So called Vasanas - We want them, the desires. There are 2 ways from here.

1.  control all your desires and meditate. do not allow the desires to take hold of you. This is very very tough.
2.  accept the Ashrama you are in. for Ex Grihasthasrama entitles for the householder to desire rightfully and enjoy the materialistic life for some years and then retire to the forest to know the Self.

But most of us probably want both the (1) and (2) we sometimes want to curb all our desires and sometimes want to enjoy for lacking the poise to control our desires.

The Yogic path also describes the Ashtanga Yoga:

Yama           -Social discipline
Niyama   -Discipline of the self
Asana   -Physical discipline through the practice of postures
Pranayama   -Mental discipline through breath control
Pratyahara   -Discipline of the senses through withdrawal
Dharana   -Concentration
Dhyana   -Meditation
Samadhi   -Self-realisation


The famous Yoga Teacher BKS Iyengar says one should not jump the Ashtanga Yoga say from Yama to Dharana and Samadhi, Its not possible. One has to pass all the 8 stages to Samadhi else it will be endless cycle.

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 02:14:39 PM by Nagaraj »



“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2009, 05:32:11 PM »
Dear Udai,

What you say is very true. being the Substratum of all the activities is to abide and remember the Self constantly! I saw this documentary I think around the months of Jan - Feb 2008

I have been moving round and round or like the waves up and down for equipoise. I know I am just dabbling myself intellectually. sometimes I feel I am even the simple layman innocent person is far ahead of me spiritually, the person does not even understand anything. Such implicit faith. The person reads the Sai Sat Charitra every day and says (mara Manda) roughly translated as 'my dull headed brain' does not understand a word of what is written in the book but I just read it because I know Baba will bless me take care of me. I can die but I can never get such simple faith in me.

This journey to know more and more is always continuing. It is never ending. What is meditation after all? infact even this moment as I am typing this post I am concentrated in this topic of meditation, the mind is focussed on this subject. Time passes and then when it ends the mind dabbles thinking about Sri Ramana and Tiruvannamalai, etc... The mind is constantly engaged. What does it seek? The seeking has to end! Sri Ramana says Meditation is your true nature. sometimes I wonder what is meditation after all. Is it to sit in solitude and enquire, is it to sit and do Japa, is it to be engaged in some work not knwing the time pass by, is it to keep chanting some mantra always, is it to be close to nature and be aware the air touch you, is it to be sensitive to the smell of the nature, is it to to feel the ground softly when we walk step by step feelingly, is it to show love and care towards fellow humans, is it to think some beauty like Arunachala Krishna Rama? In a way all of the above are types of meditation suiting each ones abilities.

But anything which is not constant cannot be your true nature, it has to last permanently being the substratum. all the above kinds of meditations seem temporary for me, as its happening in Chitta - Imagination.

I don't seem to know what my question is after all, what am I really seeking? all the knowledge that I have gained is as good as the pile of waste even though I am aware of the possible answers myself for the doubts raised. This seems to be beyond the dirt. the dirt has to be wiped out!

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 05:57:31 PM by Nagaraj »



“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17366
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2009, 05:36:27 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Even though Bhagavan Ramana has explained this in detail, in His
Vichara Manjari to Gambhiram Sesha Iyer, He said that it need not
be followed step by step or it need not adhered to strictly.  For
example Bhagavan Ramana did not prescribe any Asana, only
Sukasana was all that needed.  He did not prescribe breath control,
as per Ashtanga Yoga, mere watching of breath would be adequate.
Bhagavan was like a Manduka, a frog!  This is the word from which
the name Maandukya Upanishad came.  A frog simply jumps from one place to its place of prey!  Bhagavan Ramana jumped from 16.
Chokkanatha Street, West Towers, Madurai to the Self that is
Arunachala Siva.  He was like a surace-to-surface missile, like a
Patriot or Scud missile used in Gulf War!  From the Nirvana Room,
He also jumped to the summit of Arunachala as a meteor at 8.47
PM, on 14th April 1950!

Arunachala Siva.
 

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2009, 06:57:24 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

I feel in Jnana Marga, these Ashtanga mentioned is involuntarily achieved and leads one to Samadhi without necessarily with the awareness of the person.

Yama

  Ahimsa: non-violence, inflicting no injury or harm to others or even to one's ownself, it goes as far as nonviolence in thought, word and deed.
  Satya: truth in word & thought.
  Asteya: non-covetousness, to the extent that one should not even desire something that is not his own.
  Brahmacharya: abstain from sexual intercourse; celibacy in case of unmarried people and monogamy in case of married people. Even this to the                 extent that one should not possess any unholy thoughts towards any other man or woman except one's own spouse. It's common to associate   Brahmacharya with celibacy.
  Aparigraha: non-possessiveness

Niyama refers to the five observances
  Shaucha: cleanliness of body & mind.
  Santosha: satisfaction; satisfied with what one has..
  Tapas: austerity and associated observances for body discipline & thereby mental control.
  Svadhyaya: study of the Vedic scriptures to know about God and the soul, which leads to introspection on a greater awakening to the soul and God within,
  Ishvarapranidhana: surrender to (or worship of) God.

Asana: Discipline of the body: rules and postures to keep it disease-free and for preserving vital energy. Correct postures are a physical aid to meditation, for they control the limbs and nervous system and prevent them from producing disturbances.

Pranayama: control of breath. Beneficial to health, steadies the body and is highly conducive to the concentration of the mind. Similarly when we just observe our breath, the breathing is normalized.  any how the purpose is achieved.

Pratyahara: withdrawal of senses from their external objects.

Dharana: concentration of the citta upon a physical object, such as a flame of a lamp, the mid point of the eyebrows, or the image of a deity.

Dhyana: steadfast meditation. Undisturbed flow of thought around the object of meditation (pratyayaikatanata). The act of meditation and the object of meditation remain distinct and separate.

Samadhi: oneness with the object of meditation. There is no distinction between act of meditation and the object of meditation.

In what ever way one goes Bhakti Marga, Yoga Marga Jnana Marga or even Karma Marga, these Ashtanaga are, either voluntarily or involuntarily reached. All though one need not learn intensely the Asanas and all, the basic Asanas i.e. to sit in Sukhaasana is also achieved only after Yama Niyama.

These Ashtangas are the ingredients to Samadhi or is natural to the enlightened person.

Nagaraj


« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 07:01:27 PM by Nagaraj »



“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17366
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 12:31:49 PM »
Dear Nagaraj, srkudai,

Bhagavan Ramana has also described the Ashtanga, the eight limbs
of Raja Yoga, as applicable in Jnana Yoga.  This is the same as
Aparokshanubhuti of Sankara.  I did not mention about this, as
Nagaraj may be further confounded.  But the fact remains that
Bhagavan Ramana stressed only Sukasana and watching the
breath to most of the devotees.

Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2009, 06:50:42 PM »
Dear Udai, Subramanian,

Thanks for your posts. I was just trying to convey the same thing. Yes Bhagawan and Shankara respectively have conveyed the real essence of the attitude one should have. These Ashtangas i.e. Yama, Niyama, etc... - I was just trying tell that these things are by default achieved by whatever Sadhana one pursues, the end of Yoga is to achieve that equipoise, to achieve at that Sukhasana to sit comfortably for long periods forgetting ones own body. similarly, when one just watches his breath alone, the objectives of Ashtanga are naturally achieved, when one watches ones own breath, his breath becomes natural, which is the goal of Pranayama, when ones enquires into himself, he will by default develop the qualities of Yama and Niyama. As the practice increases one achieves Prathyahara Dharana and Dhyana and finally one gets established in Samadhi.

I would'nt deny that I am incomplete. Yes some sort of incompleteness exists. I seem to find no specific reason for it. If God willing, If it happnes I would love to meet Sri Suddhananda. I did check out his website and I found him inspiring. Am just faithfully waiting for a Guru. They say the Guru comes when the disciple is ready. perhaps I am not yet ready! only rare souls like Sri Ramana, Dhathathreya did not even require a Guru. I have visited some Gurus. The Shankaracharya of Sringeri and Shakatapuram are the only Gurus I have met. But when I stand in front of them, I find myself humbled, I am unable to talk with their holiness. I feel I am not yet ready even to talk to a Guru. Each time I visit Sringeri, usually I have a lot of clarifications and questions to ask. But when I see Him, a voice within somes up - Do I even need to tell my questions to Guru? Who am I after all to ask questions, I am far less matured spiritually than several others who are able to converse with the Guru at ease.

I am just waiting. What could be more auspicious than to serve a Guru day and night? I just pray.  God willing, I will be able to meet Sri Suddhananda.

Its like you know, when the mother leaves the small baby alone and the Baby simply cries and cries to see the mother and get in her folds.

Nagaraj



“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2009, 09:18:14 PM »
If book-reading develops yearning in the heart of the seeker, it has served its purpose.
The inner guru which has planted the yearning in the heart will also lead towards the Self, provided the seeker remains faithful to him.

Since ancient times, various sages and saints have expressed the same Self in different ways.
When a person is thirsty what is the need to know how water is called in all the languages of the world.
Instead the seeker should find out the source of water and drink it.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17366
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2009, 11:23:47 AM »
Dear silentgreen,

Yes.  Bhagavan Ramana has said, inter alia, the following two things
also in Who am I?

1. There is no use in limitless reading of books.  I am still not able
to practise it fully.

2. Since all actions in the world are done by Parameswara Sakti,
why not you leave the burden to Him and keep quiet and instead,
keep on thinking whether I should  this or do that?  Even here,
the mischievous ego does not listen.  We are planning, constantly
planning, day in and day out, for something or other.  Everyday
when I read Who am I? I think:  Bhagavan!  Why I am not able to
follow these things fully?

Arunachala Siva.   

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2009, 09:11:42 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Nice to hear your story.
It is true, God alone knows his ways.

Om Shanti ...
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
    • View Profile
Re: Bhagawan on 'Who am I' enquiry
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2009, 11:38:20 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) Its really very inspiring to read your experiences. Pure Consciousness - I am reminded about the Mahavakya - Prajnanam Brahma - "Consciousness is Brahman" which appears in the Aitareya Upanishad of the Rig Veda.

Nagaraj




“You cannot travel the path until
you have become the path itself”
[