The Old Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: Nagaraj on July 17, 2010, 10:05:29 PM

Title: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 17, 2010, 10:05:29 PM
One of my close friends, when we were discussing about 'surrendering' to God completely (We had discussed a lot of times before); She had got so tired of surrendering, and one day, she said to me 'If at all I have to surrender anymore, I only have to go to a Police Station and Surrender myself'  :D


I found this very enlightening article by Sri A. Devaraja Mudaliar in one of the Mounatin Path Issues.

Even recent saints have, in their great mercy, told some lucky disciples that if they surrendered completely to the Guru they need not do anything else. Once when Girish Chandra Ghosh wept before Ramakrishna and declared that he could not follow any discipline, however simple or short, Ramakrishna was pleased to tell him: "Then give me power of attorney", meaning: 'Surrender and I will do the rest!'

I once told Bhagavan: "I am another Girish. You must save me yourself. Every saint must have a Girish."

Bhagavan replied But he gave power of attorney."

"I too have surrendered to the extent that I am capable of," I said: "What more can I do?"

Bhagavan said nothing.

It was not Bhagavan's way to say, "Surrender and I will look after you." However, the following incident is significant in that regard. About a year before Bhagavan left the body I said to him one afternoon: "I am going to sing Bhagavan three stanzas from a poem by Sivaprakasam Pillai because they express what I want to say better than I could." I then sang them. Their meaning is: "I have not followed your teaching or instructions; but is it proper for a Guru to get disgusted with his devotee as an incorrigible beast and to give him up? If you let me go my own way like this, what is to happen to me? I shall not reform and you will not correct or change me. Have I any other help in this or the other world except you, my Lord? What, then, is your idea" Is this right behaviour for you?"

Bhagavan did not immediately reply, which caused me some disappointment. After a minute or two he said: "Whether I do anything or not, your business is only to surrender and keep still."

Some friends have told me that I may take this to mean: "Don't worry; I know what to do and will do it." On the other hand, it may only mean: "If you really surrender you have no right to complain; so if a devotee complains it is a sign that he has not surrendered." In any case, I prefer to be an optimist and believe that, however incomplete my surrender may be, so long as his Grace is complete he will look after me all right.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: viswanathan on July 18, 2010, 08:25:19 AM
Dear Mr.Nagaraj,
                      Some time back I met  a staunch devotee of Bhagavan who was working as a professor in a leading college in Chennai.When i was exchanging views on teachings of Bhagavan,she told me that atma vichara( self enquiry ) is easy to practice  as compared to surrender which is very difficult and she was thankful to Bhagavan for giving us the technique of self enquiry.. From our day to day practice,we know that real surrender is very difficult.When  we are happy or achieve something in life ,we forget god where as when there is some serious problem we  remember him.How can this be called as surrender?During one of my visit to Us ,I met a senior devotee who is hindu by birth and a professor in US.He was in full praise of Bhagavan for his method of self enquiry.He told me that Bhagavan has not prescribed any rituals for atma vichara like wearing rudharaksham applying  vibuthi,dress code,doing elaborate puja etc which are all common in Hinduism.If a hindue does not follow all these he will be condemned.Many  of us follow these rituals and outwardly we look divine where as we are full of ego and  we spit venom when we open our mouth.What a Hippocrate  we are?The rituals and customs was are so strong in  Hinduism that  a fellow human being  was not permitted in temples just because he was considered a untouchable.Leave alone temples,they were not permitted to enter inside  house of so called high caste...In the name of rituals,still people of other faiths are not allowed in our temples in some parts of india.In the case of Bhagavan,his life itself was his message.He ate food brought by staunch devotees like keerai patti/Mudaliar patti who were not brahmins,his personnal attendents were all non brahmins.He gave darshan to people of all religion and nationality.This was the power of Bhagavan's self enquiry and this is the reason Bhagavan was attracted by people of  all religion,caste community and nationality throughout the globe.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 18, 2010, 09:37:33 AM

Dear Nagaraj and viswanathan,

For some, Atma Vichara appears to be easy.  For some others,
Saranagati [surrender] appears to be easy.  But both are difficult
and need practice and perseverance.

For those whose ego is quite tough to crack, the surrender is
advocated, because the surrender per se is concerned with
ego only and not the Self.  Surrendering ego totally, one experiences the shining of the Self.  The Self is ever shining but the ego, the impurity should totally be cleaned up.

Bhagavan Ramana attained self realization in Madurai.  The whole thing was an investigation method, which lasted about 15 to 20
minutes.  He has in fact said, "where is the time, there was no
time at all," i.e. only the preparatory work of lying down, making the body stiff, tightening the lips etc., took some time.  Then
the Atmanubhuti revealed itself like a lightning. 

But Bhagavan Ramana also advocated surrender to many.  He has told Devaraja Mudaliar once:  "If you cannot do self enquiry,surrender and remain still."

But, if surrender, I mean the self-surrender is also difficult, then one should keep on smothering the ego, and that is all.


Guru will take care of everything.  Bhagavan Ramana says in
Sri Arunachala Nava Mani Maalai, Verse 7:

"That moment when as Annamalai you called me and made
me your own, you took sole charge of my spirit and my body.  What more do I want?  Merit or defect I know none, apart from you.  My very life you are.  Do with me what you will.  Only,
only, GIVE ME EVER INCREASING LOVE FOR YOUR TWIN FEET."           



Love the Guru's Twin Feet.  Constantly contemplate on His Twin
Feet.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: SLakshmi on July 18, 2010, 08:17:21 PM
The following is from the talk given by Sri V. S. Ramanan, President of Sri Ramanasramam, in New York City at the September 8th, 2002 "Advent at Arunachala" program.

The whole life of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi is a commentary on saranagati (surrender). When he left Madurai for good, he took just the train fare to Tiruvannamalai, threw away the packets of sweets given to him by Muthukrishna Bhagavathara’s wife and was not anxious for the morrow. He tore off from his dhoti only a strip for a kaupina (loin cloth) and he did not even think of using the remaining cloth as a towel. This is total surrender.

Surrender is a practical proposition. It releases the devotee from life’s dilemma. Wherever Sri Krishna teaches about saranagati in the Bhagavad Gita he refers to ananya bhakti, where the instrument and the goal are one and the same. The same idea is stated by Sri Bhagavan in the fifth verse of "Arunachala Pancharatnam":

One who surrenders his heart wholly to you, one who sees you in every aspect of creation, one who loves every creation as himself – he is the one who will succeed, O Arunachala! he will get immersed in you!

Here Sri Bhagavan stresses ananya bhakti and self-surrender.

It is interesting to note that Sri Krishna says, "Do not grieve." After surrendering yourself totally to God, you should not even worry about your own shortcomings or flaws. For if you think you have to improve yourself after surrender, then it indicates a residual ego in you. Hence, don’t grieve about your flaws after surrender. It only shows your surrender is incomplete. Bhagavan says after getting into a train, nobody carries the luggage on his head. He keeps it on the luggage-rack. Likewise, after surrendering, do not continue to carry your mental luggage. Leave it totally to His care.

After surrender you should not have 1) worries, 2) fear, 3) doubt, 4) sorrow, 5) the inclination to test whether surrender is effective or not and 6) aberrations (conflicts).

The devotee who has surrendered is like a lump of clay in the hands of the potter. The lump never says, "Make me a pot! Make me a cup, etc." It leaves it to the potter to mold it into whatever shape he wants it to become.

Sri Bhagavan lays great value on ananya saranagati. There are several instances where He explains the concept to the questioner:

"If you have surrender, it means that you must accept the will of God and not make a grievance of what may not happen to please you. Things may turn out differently from what they appear. Distress often leads people to faith in God.

"The Lord bears the burden of the world. Know that the spurious ego which presumes to bear that burden is like a sculptured figure at the foot of a temple tower which appears to sustain the tower’s weight. There cannot even be impatience for speedy realization."

To one who was so afflicted, he replied: "Surrender to Him and accept His will whether He appears or vanishes. Await His pleasure. If you want Him to do as you want, it is not surrender, but command. You cannot ask Him to obey you and yet think you have surrendered. He knows what is best and when and how to do it. Leave everything entirely to Him. That is what is meant by surrender."

Even prayer can imply a lack of trust and Sri Bhagavan normally did not encourage prayer in the sense of petition:

"They pray to God and finish with ‘Thy will be done’. If His will be done, why do they pray at all? It is true that Divine Will prevails at all times under all circumstances. Individuals cannot act of their own accord. Recognize the force of the Divine Will and keep quiet. Everyone is looked after by God. He created all. You are only one among two thousand millions. When He looks after so many, will He omit you? Even common sense dictates that one should accept His will. There is no need to tell Him your requirements. He knows them Himself and will look after them."

To a devotee’s question Sri Bhagavan replied: "Gandhiji has surrendered himself to the Divine and works accordingly with no self interest. He does not concern himself with the results but accepts them as they turn up. That must be the attitude of national workers.

"Devotee: Will the work be crowned with success?
"Bhagavan: The question arises because the questioner has not surrendered himself."
When a devotee questioned about unconditional surrender, Bhagavan replied:
"If one surrenders completely, there will be no one left to ask questions or to be considered. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root thought "I", or one surrenders unconditionally to the Higher Power. These are the only two ways to Realization."

[Extract taken from arunachala.org]

Ramanarpamastu
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: viswanathan on July 19, 2010, 10:43:32 AM

After surrender you should not have 1) worries, 2) fear, 3) doubt, 4) sorrow, 5) the inclination to test whether surrender is effective or not and 6) aberrations (conflicts).


To a devotee’s question Sri Bhagavan replied: "Gandhiji has surrendered himself to the Divine and works accordingly with no self interest. He does not concern himself with the results but accepts them as they turn up. That must be the attitude of national workers.

"
Dear Mrs lakshmi,
The speech By Sri.V.S.Ramanan ,President Ramanasramam on the six qualities referred above  to judge onself whether one has surrendered or attained Jnana is very good tool for all of us to judge ourselves..The other quote on Mahathma Gandhiji To a devotee’s question Sri Bhagavan replied: "Gandhiji has surrendered himself to the Divine and works accordingly with no self interest. He does not concern himself with the results but accepts them as they turn up. That must be the attitude of national workers. assumes importance in light of some of adverse comments appeared somewhere in this forum.Arunachala Ramana forum is browsed by devotees all over globe and some of them not familiar with gandhiji and his teachings will be mislead on going thro the adverse comments.Also, this forum will last for ever and future generation( whether from India or abroad) who may not be knowing   Gandhiji  will also be misled by the comments.Hence, Bhagavan's good certificate on Gndhiji assumes importance. In view of that,i sincerely thank Mrs.lakshmi for contributing for the above thread.
s quote on Mahathma.
[/b]
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: SLakshmi on July 19, 2010, 12:16:51 PM
Viswanathan sir,

Once sri ramakrishna swami, one of the ashram workers disgressed from sri bhagavan's teachings and was seen to be having an affair with a ashram woman, who too was an ashram worker. some of the devotees who thought that ramakrishna swami had brought a bad name to the ashram disapproved of the appointment. sri bhagavan defending ramakrishna swami said "before when he was working here, he spent a lot of his time outside the ashram on ashram business. he never came to parayana, nor did he ever listen to the teachings in the hall. his mind was always extroverted because he was not doing any meditation.If we keep him in the hall for some time his mind will improve".

sri bhagavan paused for a moment before adding a final comment " His case has come out in the open.But what other people did, and are still doing, has not come out like this."

Why i find sri bhagavan's especially the last comment here is that it is easy for us to be judgmental about people and things in general. But are WE perfection personified?!

sri bhagavan never EVER used any bad words or commented on anyone's impropriety. sri bhagavan had very high regard for mahatma gandhi, sri paramacharya and sivananda and vice-versa. Infact we do not even have the right to "discuss" their lives. leave alone their so called personal mis-doings. Ofcourse debates and discussion on such greats are important but better if they are within the limits of sri bhagavan's own conduct and his outlook towards such things in life.

Guess i have said too much. But couldnt resist. I apologise if i may have spoken out of turn..

ramanarpamastu
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 19, 2010, 01:08:59 PM

Dear SLakshmi,

What is true surrender?  It is the self-surrender.  Muruganar
says in Guru Vachaka Kovai, Verse 1189:



By turning towards the Self, a person should dive within and
enquire, 'Who is the bogus independent entity who says 'I'?'
Through that inquiry, he should die willingly in the Atma Swarupam,
which is devoid of the ego, and which is the true form of God.
The excellence of the state of mauna, that then shines, and with
which he is indistinguishably merged, is the consummation of the
practice of surrender.



Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: viswanathan on July 19, 2010, 01:14:37 PM
Viswanathan sir,
 it is easy for us to be judgmental about people and things in general. But are WE perfection personified?!

sri bhagavan never EVER used any bad words or commented on anyone's impropriety. sri bhagavan had very high regard for mahatma gandhi, sri paramacharya and sivananda and vice-versa. Infact we do not even have the right to "discuss" their lives. leave alone their so called personal mis-doings. Ofcourse debates and discussion on such greats are important but better if they are within the limits of sri bhagavan's own conduct and his outlook towards such things in life.
Dear Mrs.lakshmi,
I fully agree with your views as above and you are right.
Thanks
A.Viswanathan
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 19, 2010, 03:40:32 PM
We have to see divinity in everything, be it good or bad, clean or unclean, anything...

We should uplift ourselves whereby, we have to listen to the venting of others and give them solace, but we should also make ourselves wise and never vent on others our difficulties. This is hallmark of a spiritual person.

Paropakaaram idam shariram - This body is only for the service of others. This itself will take us through all problems.

We have to follow the highest order of Ahimsa which Gandhi followed. not hurting anybody, anything by thought word and deed. We should show such kindness to all, animals, insects, even while we walk, we have to walk very slowly consciously bearing in mind how Bhu Devi, mother earth is bearing the weight of all patiently.

We should be so conscious that we do not even abuse non living things as well, like, for example, take care of our vehicles properly like it is also a jiva, do not ride it rashly, go smooth in humps etc... we should have such level of care, we should follow such ideal of Ahimsa.

Even our Slippers, we have to treat it with utmost care and love, that we walk slowly and not hurt even the slippers.

Such compassion - we have to cultivate.

Ahimsa itself is Realisation, Brahman, Atman

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on July 19, 2010, 11:51:39 PM
Dear Nagraj garu,

It is not possible to follow ahimsa always.

You are right if you say that we should follow ahimsa as far as possible in our life.

Even gandhiji would have surely killed unknowingly many little creatures when walking many times in his life.

When all routes close and all options are over only then lord krishna has agreed for the war.

Even ramana maharshi asked Annamali Swami to clear the area of ants.

Quote
One day after lunch we noticed lots of ants in the Old Hall disturbing the devotees. Bhagavan asked me to inspect the area and do the needful. When I went and lifted a stone, millions of ants rushed out. I was jumping all over in order to avoid crushing them. When Bhagavan asked me what I was doing, I explained that it would be jivahimsa to kill hundreds and thousands of ants by stepping upon them or by closing the opening through which they came out. He said, "You are not doing it for yourself, it is for the sake of others." He then quoted from Chapter thirteen of Bhagavad Gita where Krishna says that even killing is permitted if it is for the benefit of the world. Upon hearing this, I cleared the area of ants, sealed the entrance and cemented it.

We are in Kali Yuga sir and not in Satya Yuga.If we are in Satya Yuga then maybe we can achieve 100% ahimsa.

If our government follows only ahimsa and close all our jails and bring back military from the border and bans police jobs then wonder how india will be like  :)

What to tell even with all our military force and security we are unable to stop 26/11 mumbai attacks,hyderabad gokul chat attacks etc.

Once i remember Kanchi Sage has distributed Hanuman Chalisa to our soldiers before they are about to engage in war.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2010, 08:59:12 AM

Dear SLakshmi, prasanth, Nagaraj and others,

Saiva Siddhantam always glorifies the role of ahimsa, non-
injury to others.  Sivam only means Love.  But during Tiru
Jnana Sambandhar's time, he had to debate with Jain monks
and after their defeat, the king executed these Jain monks.
So, the saint was the indirect cause of Jain monks' death.


Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on July 20, 2010, 09:01:24 AM
Man is a product of evolution and he is violent.So the whole society is violent.That is why it needs police,military to curb
violence to manageable levels.Violence not only means physical hurting or killing but also psychological hurting.
Every body hurts every body psychologically daily.Comparison,competition is hurting because in comparing the other
being we are him to a measurable thing which he is really not.Non-violence is a mental concept.If we practice
non-violence with mind it implies that at present i am violent and sometime in future i will be non-violent,meanwhile
my nature continues to be violent.Gandhiji compelled Kasturiba to clean the latrines in South Africa.It is encroaching
into her freedom and that encroachment is violence.His son wanted to marry a muslim woman and Gandhiji rejected it
even he prays daily the song of Eswara Allah tere naam.His son pointed out that fact.But Gandhiji is stubborn.
His son took islam and changed his name to Abdullah which means servant god,which is similar in meaning to Haridas.
Once Abdullah happened to see his mother in a railway station and came to ask for blessings of Kasturiba and she is an
ordinary mother and wanted to bless her son.But Gandhiji prevented her from doing that saying to Kasturiba if you
bless him you will lose me.Kasturiba with tears in her eyes is compelled not to bless her own son.Is it not violence
on the part of Gandhiji whom the whole India feels that he is next to Buddha in non-violence.Unless we go beyond
ego we don't go beyond violence.Buddha is beyond the ego,in Nirvana in which the light of ego is extinguished once
and forever.But that is not the case with Gandhiji.I do not want to undermine great qualities of Gandhi had but he is
violent,that is a fact.In 1947 when Indian planes are about to bombard positions in Kashmir he blessed those pilots
from the ground.Is it a sign of non-violence?If we practice non-violence with the mind we will also be in the same
position or much worse also.So we can live a life of ego with violence or we can go beyond the ego and live a life
without single conflict,strife,violence.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on July 20, 2010, 09:05:48 AM
Dear Subramanian,Namaste.
                                     It is quite surprising that a great being like Adi Sankara had a debate with Buddhists and who ever
loses has to jump in the fire.Adi Sankara won the debate and asked the Buddhists to jump into the fire which they did.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2010, 09:21:13 AM

Dear Dr. Raju,

Yes.  Both Adi Sankara and Tiru Jnana Sambandha were using
violence on some occasions.  You have written about Gandhi.

In this connection, I remember one TirukuraL of Tiruvalluvar.
There must be some inner meaning in that couplet.  I am
still to understand.  He says:

"Learned say that only for Dharma, love is essential.  But
for adharma too, love is essential." 

Perhaps as a doctor, you know even  mercy killing and euthanasia,
are done only for the benefit of the suffering patients.



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2010, 10:10:23 AM

Yes.  There is no punya or papa in a Swadharma.  A lion has to
necessarily hunt a deer and eat.  Otherwise it cannot survive.
The eating of grass is not its swadharma.  Similarly, a soldier
who kills 10 soldiers of the opposing army gets Veer Chakra.
If as a civilian, if I kill even one person, I get lifetime imprisonment
or execution.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 10:13:55 AM
Dear I,

Dear Nagraj garu,

It is not possible to follow ahimsa always.

You are right if you say that we should follow ahimsa as far as possible in our life.

Even gandhiji would have surely killed unknowingly many little creatures when walking many times in his life.

When all routes close and all options are over only then lord krishna has agreed for the war.

Even ramana maharshi asked Annamali Swami to clear the area of ants.

Quote
One day after lunch we noticed lots of ants in the Old Hall disturbing the devotees. Bhagavan asked me to inspect the area and do the needful. When I went and lifted a stone, millions of ants rushed out. I was jumping all over in order to avoid crushing them. When Bhagavan asked me what I was doing, I explained that it would be jivahimsa to kill hundreds and thousands of ants by stepping upon them or by closing the opening through which they came out. He said, "You are not doing it for yourself, it is for the sake of others." He then quoted from Chapter thirteen of Bhagavad Gita where Krishna says that even killing is permitted if it is for the benefit of the world. Upon hearing this, I cleared the area of ants, sealed the entrance and cemented it.

We are in Kali Yuga sir and not in Satya Yuga.If we are in Satya Yuga then maybe we can achieve 100% ahimsa.

If our government follows only ahimsa and close all our jails and bring back military from the border and bans police jobs then wonder how india will be like  :)

What to tell even with all our military force and security we are unable to stop 26/11 mumbai attacks,hyderabad gokul chat attacks etc.

Once i remember Kanchi Sage has distributed Hanuman Chalisa to our soldiers before they are about to engage in war.

The Scriptures, the Vedas, Gurus, all ask you to follow Ahimsa, but did they ask us to analyse and see how much percent we can follow Ahimsa, did they tell us, that 100% Ahimsa is only for Satya Yuga and it is not as much applicable today? It is unfortunate and little disturbing that we are even justifying by referring to some examples of Ramana Maharshi and war between India and Pakistan, it is unfortunate to use the Paramacharyas context of giving Hanuman Chalisa in the spirit of this post.

We are not asked to analyse and see what would happen if Indian Govt. follow Ahimsa!

We are asked to follow Ahimsa not to debate how much we can follow today.

We have to tame our minds... This is not the right way of interpretation or the way to go forward. We should stop comparing and stop using scales for following Ahimsa.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 10:22:09 AM
Dear I,

Dear Subramanian,Namaste.
                                     It is quite surprising that a great being like Adi Sankara had a debate with Buddhists and who ever
loses has to jump in the fire.Adi Sankara won the debate and asked the Buddhists to jump into the fire which they did.

I have never read or heard anywhere about Sri Adi Shankara or Sri Jnana Sambandhar, being a direct cause of death of the persons they debated.

However, we have to take it in the right spirit, right understanding. The scholars and poets who recorded the lives of these saints have their peculiar ways of writing their poetry about these saints.

Infact, The Buddhists jumping into fire does not mean that they jumped into fire literally, it means the death of their EGOs. Having lost the debate, they (EGOs) had to jump into the fire of Knowledge and die.

It is ridiculous to interpret these things in such a manner.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 21, 2010, 10:28:20 AM

Dear Nagaraj,


Your interpretation of death is death of ego is absolutely fine.

The Jain monks executed by the Pandya King comes in
Periya Puranam [Tamizh poetry version].  I have not read the
Adi Sankara story.  But I have heard it.

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 10:32:58 AM
Dear I,

I apologise, my posts way have been a little harsh. I just found it disturbing.

I am sure, saint Sri Jnansambandhar, would not have justified the killings by Pandya Kings. if at all they are true. I am sure, Sri Sambandhar would have reprimanded these acts of the King.

The poetry in these works always have a peculiar way in their spirit, they are deliberately recorded in such a manner that the reader could cleanse himself first and then realise the truth of the verse. I am sure, this verse would have clear inner essence in it.

Kannaal Kaanbadum poi, Kaadal Ketpadum poi, theera visaaripade aridu - what we see and hear are false, to investigate (Self Enquiry) is wise

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 10:41:11 AM
I am of the opinion that we should only share amongst ourselves and others, only Good informnation and avoid any unnecessary controversial piece of information, be it spiritual or otherwise unless we are so sure of seeing the real essence of Goodness in them worth sharing!

Kartadu Kai Alvu, Kallaaladu Ulagalavu - What we know is very little, what we don't is as much as the universe.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: SLakshmi on July 21, 2010, 10:43:53 AM
On the topic of surrender bhagavan's reply is worth noting:

T.V.K Iyer told sri bhagavan: Recently a man of the thengalai school who is well-versed in the esoteric meaning of vaishnavaite literature initiated me and gave me samasanam and sama asrayam and taught me their esoteric meaning. He gives discourses and does good work among the poor, but he would not admit vadakalais to his discourses; according to the vaishnavaite teaching one must do kainkaryam or service to god.

Bhagavan replied rather sarcastically: " So God cant get on without their sevices?On the contrary god asks: 'who are you to do service to me'? He is always saying; 'I am within you; who are you?' One must try to realise that and not speak of service. Submission or surrender is the basic teaching of vaishnavism, but it does not consider in paying a guru a fee for intiation and telling him that you have surrendered. As often as one tries to surrender, the ego raises its head and one has to try and suppress it. Surrender is not an easy thing. Killing the ego is not an easy thing. It is only when god himself by his grace draws the mind inwards that complete surrender can be achieved. But such grace comes only to those who have already in this or previous lives, gone through all the struggles and sadhanas preparatory to the extinction of the mind and killing of the ego."

[Day by Day, Pg 263]

Ramanarpamastu



Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 21, 2010, 12:03:02 PM

Dear srkudai,


What you have posted may be true.  Because I went through
Periya Puranam, and Sekkizhar nicely puts it like this:  "The
Jain monks after realizing the folly of their philosophy went
to the gallows on their own.  So, in both the cases, the killing
has been accepted by the killed religious leaders themselves!

This gives rise to a question on my mind, which has been unsolved
by me for quite some time.  If Sri Sankara's philosophy of Advaitam
is correct, how come Sri Ramanuja in 13th century proved to the
antagonists that advaitam was wrong?  How come, Sri Raghavendra
Swami in 16th century proved that both advaitam and qualified
advaitam [Vishishtadvaitam] were wrong and dualism was only
the correct philosophy?

Is philosophy proved by the battle of words or by the truth it carries?  Bhagavan and Muruganar say that Advaitam is not
a philosophy at all but a state of Being or an experience.

In fact Bhagavan Ramana says in the famous commission proceedings [thanks to Perumal Swami]:  "I have my own experience.  But later when I read Sankara, I found that 'this' [experience] tallies with Sankara's teachings!"           

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 21, 2010, 12:08:02 PM

Dear Nagaraj,

Your posts have never been harsh.  You have started the thread
jocularly stating that someone said that he had only to surrender to the
police station, since he is not able to understand any other surrender!


All the same, we are violently agreeing with each other ultimately.

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 12:14:52 PM
As a matter of fact, to my humble understanding,

Adi Shankara only propounded Advaita as a matter of "Samatva" - one can reach God any way, because, Budhism was being misused and it turned out to be a religion contrary to the desire of Budha. The successors of Budha were only oriented in bringing down the existing beliefs, the rituals and they ridiculed them. Hence Adi Shankara only infused the necessary by introducing "Advaita - Samatva" He was never against Budha and his beliefs, he was only against the currupt practices of the followers of Budha.

We have heard in Nochurs pravachanams itself, about these, how Budha himself went into forest in his last years upset with the attitudes of his followers.

Infact, Adi Shankara's Paramaguru, Gaudapada, has freely quoted in his Karika references from Buddhist works of Nagarjuna and others.

Adi Shankara only infused advaita for a balance which was very much needed at that time of Chaos, Nobody were clear what to do, this or that, to leave rituals and leave family and kids to become a buddhist monk to attain Nirvana, ???? What does one do?

It is in this time of crises that Shankara revived Sanathana Dharma, He did not go and convert people. He just said them the truth.

Where as in the times of Ramanuja, there was a BIG clash between Saivaites and Vaishanvaites. It was the need of the hour for Ramanuja to propound Vishshtadvaita because, people began to put Advaita into Action which is absurd.

Saivaites dominated over vaishnavites and reprimanded Vishnu. Hence the need of the hour was carried out by Ramanuja.

There is no difference between Buddha, Shankara and Ramanuja.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 21, 2010, 12:19:22 PM
Dear SLakshmi,


What many of the Sri Vaishnavites have been telling as Saranagati
[surrender] is only kainkaryam, service to Narayana, i.e reading
4000 holy verses, mudra samasanam [having the conchshell and
chakra marks on their shoulders, by getting pressed with hot iron seals] etc.,  In Bhagavan Ramana's words this guru seva is not
surrender.  Surrender is the sacrifice of the ego at the Guru's feet.

Collecting fee for doing Guru seva or any other activities like pada
puja, calling the gurus to your house, etc.,  or any karma initiated
by the Guru for the disciple to do, are virutally  death blows by the
guru to his disciples.

Ozhivil Odukkam of Kannudaiya VaLLalar says:

If a Guru asks you to do any further karma [without asking you
to remain still -summa iru-] he is like a blind man leading another
blind man and both falling into the pit.

In the same book, Kannudaiya Vallalar says:

An elephant will only pull the sugar cane, remove the upper leafy
portion and give the crushed stem to the baby elephant for enjoying the sugar juice.  A goat will only bite the upper leafy portion [which
contains needle-like structure] and eats and also gives the same
hurting leafy portion to the baby goat also!  A true Guru is like
an elephant and the bogus guru is like a goat.  


Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 12:21:11 PM
Dear I,
All the same, we are violently agreeing with each other ultimately.

This is however the Truth, :)

It is thought provoking and funny at the same time, that we are ultimately Violently agreeing at the same time!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 21, 2010, 12:42:30 PM
Post thoughts :

This is one of the reason why UGK repeatedly kept saying that Jesus, Buddha and others have only created a nuisance by establishing a philosophy and thereby creating confusion.

It is a proven fact that more wars have been fought and more killings and terror have happened in the name of religions, love and philosophy over supremacy issues!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on July 28, 2010, 05:01:51 PM
Thanks to those who wanted to save the preisthood, Buddhism is driven out from India where it is born but his teachings are
spread all over the world and many are trying to impliment what Buddha teached.Persecution of Buddhists happened at the
hands of priesthood.Politicians and priests are hand in glove all over the world.Politician protects the psychological exploitation
of the priest and priest blesses the brutality of the politician and rationalizes it with cunning logic.Anyway all these forces in
India has thrown away Buddism from India.
Even Bhagawan never encouraged rituals as the only spiritual discipline but he never condemned them knowing fully well that
condemning gives strength to it.He said rituals,japa,dhyana,vichara helps spiritual growth each better than the previous one.
His main teaching of Vichara transcends all religions.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: ramanaduli on July 28, 2010, 10:11:43 PM
Dear sirs,

In dasa avathar, there is one avathar called "Buddha avathar". For long time I want to know, why this particular
avathar is not spoken by any pandits who delivers lecture. Suppose if this avathar is taken by Vishnu, why there
is lots of miss conception in His teachings.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 29, 2010, 09:54:19 AM

Dear Ramanaduli,

In the ten avataras of Vishnu, Parasurama, Balarama are the ones
which are always interchanged with others. Srimad  Bhagavatam   
or Sri Narayaneeyam do not speak Buddha as an avatara of Vishnu.
It might be ISKCON's own interpretation.

There is also mention about 24 avataras of Vishnu in some Bhagavatam recensions.

Thank God, Siva has no such problem.  There is no avatara for Him.



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 29, 2010, 11:04:27 AM

Dear srkudai,

I agree.  Bhagavan Ramana did not speak about Radha Krishna
stories.  He has mentioned Sri Rama, on many occasions.  When
Krishna Premi came to see Him and when the former went to
the Hill and was having visions of Sri Krishna and Radha, it had
become very late for lunch and Viswantha Swami went to the Hill
and told him:  "O Swami!  Krishna has already gone from Brindavan
to Mathura. His lunch is getting delayed.  Please come and join Him!"   

Bhagavan Ramana told Sri Krishna Premi:  "It is alright you have
been having visions of Sri Krishna.  But why not you bring that
Krishna to your Heart and be more happy, without such visions?"

All visions are fevered imaginations.  The real vision is abidance
within.  The visions operate with one's ego.  The abidance is
without any ego, the ego having been placed at the altar of Atma.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 29, 2010, 11:15:45 AM



Bhagavan Ramana often used the two terms, Atma-nishta and Atma Chintana.  Atma Nishta means self abidance and Atma Chintana which literally means 'self thought' or the thought of our Self'.

The first of these two terms, 'self abidance' is particularly significant because it implies the truth that attending to and knowing ourself is not an action, but is just the state of consciously abiding as our real self, or in other words, simply being what we really are, which is perfectly thought free self conscious being.  However the other term 'self thought' could be easily mistaken to imply that self attention is an act of 'thinking' of ourself. Though these two terms seem to imply conflicting
meanings, Bhagavan Ramana uses both of them in the first sentence of 13th paragraph of Who am I? in the context of describing the state of complete self surrender.

Being completely absorbed in Atma Nishta giving not even the slightest room to the rising of any thought except atma chinatana [the thought of our own real Self] is giving ourself to God.......

The reason why He uses the term atma chintana or self thought
in this context, is to emphasize the fact that in order to abide
in the state of perfect self surrender we should not attend to
or 'think of' anything other than our own essential being.  Hence,
if we truly wish to surrender our individual self or mind entirely to god, we must refrain from thinking anything else.



Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on July 29, 2010, 12:52:36 PM
Thank God, Siva has no such problem.  There is no avatara for Him.

Dear Subramanian Garu,

Lord Shiva himself is said to be an avatar of Rudra, the god of the roaring storm, is usually portrayed in accordance with the element he represents as a fierce, destructive deity.

So that is the reason Lord shiva has no problems as he himself is believed to be an avatar of Rudra.

Infact as known lord shiva is never mentioned in vedas and Some historians believe that the figure of Shiva as we know him today was built up over time, with the ideas of many regional sects being amalgamated into a single figure.

During the Vedic period, both Vishnu and Shiva (as identified with Rudra) played relatively minor roles, but by the time of the Brahmanas (c. 1000-700 BCE), both were gaining ascendance.

I think it is better for all of us that we follow path of Jagad Guru Adi Sankara as he has written stotras in praise of most of the hindu gods/goddess.

Moreover who is lord shiva or who is lord krishna sir everyone is same which is the basic essence of advaita Vedanta.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 29, 2010, 03:51:40 PM

Dear prasanth,

Siva is called as Agni [Tiruvannamalai Principle!] in Rig Veda.
Agnim ILe... thus starts Rig Veda.  In Yajur Veda, He is called
Rudra.  Rudra is one of the trimuvarites - Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra.
Further entire Sama Veda sings only the glory of Siva.

Siva has got five faces, as per Vedas.  These are Vamadeva,
Aghora, Rudra, Siva and Sadasiva.

Siva has got eight forms, Nataraja, Bhikshtana, Kalyana Sundara,
Somaskanda, Kalabairava, etc., etc.,

The eight forms are also depicting five elements, sun, moon and fire.

Siva used to "come and go'.  He does not take birth and live and
withdraw his form, as Vishnu. But He appears as an old brahmin
[Siruthondar, Karaikal Amma, Vajrangatha Pandyan] and sometimes as a hunter [to Arjuna].  These are all just appearances without leading a full life like Rama and Krishna.     



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 29, 2010, 03:54:43 PM

Incidentally, there is no Radha in Srimad Bhagavatam.  She represents the essence of all gopikas [jivas] for the first time,
in Jayadeva's works [15th Century AD] and in Srimad Narayaneeyam
of Meppathur Bhattadri.[17th Century AD].

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Nagaraj on July 29, 2010, 04:43:29 PM
Radha is Jivaatma and Krishna is Paramaatma. Radha signifies ourselves, the 'I' how we have to go about in out lives, Radha signifies the Sadhana. When the 'I' merges into the Self Krishna, there is only Krishna, and Radha herself is Krishna.

Radha, got married to somebody else, but she loved Krishna - This signifies that Radha was troubled like anyone of us in her Samsara but her mind was always immersed in thought of Krishna and she never missed Him or felt His absence. She used to see Krishna, talk with him consciously. Her conduct is what we - 'I' have to develop. I have read some stories about how her in-laws used to think that she was mad, mentally not stable. But all these did not trouble Radha, she was always immersed in the Krishna Consciousness.

Radha is Krishna and Krishna is Radha.

Radha signifies the Nirguna Upasana, Krishna represents Saguna Upasana.

The Merging of Radha and Krishna as One - Krishna is the Shiva-Shakti Tattva.

Without Shakti there is no Shiva and without Shiva there is no Shakti.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 29, 2010, 04:55:51 PM

Dear Nagaraj,

God-intoxicated women do not even bother for their husbands.
The story of Chakku Bai in Bhakta Vijayam story is also like that.

Akka Mahadevi [who was a spinster], has said:

"I wish to run away with Siva.  I care not for anyone else.  Burn
all these human husbands in the kitchen fire!"



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: ramanaduli on July 29, 2010, 05:49:14 PM
Dear Subramaniyan ji,


In Meenkshi Kalyanam, He came from Kailas and got married. Again in the story of Kanyakumari He came to marry but He was stoped by devas. In that way He took forms. But it is not called avatarams as Rama and Krishna.
But when I went to buy a Hanuman animation c.d. (for kids) there it is said, there is a demon, who gives problems to people. To kill him devas went to shiva to save them. Shiva says I will take avatar as Hanuman and kill him.
And it is the time Vishnu also take avatar as Rama to kill Ravan. So it is clearly said, it is a avatar of shiva.
Myself also do not know much about puranas. For all the doubts there is only one way, just we can ask to whom
all this arrives. But before steping into atma vichara, I feel this type of stories all necessary. It helps to have bhakthi in this modern world.


Ramanaduli

Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: ramanaduli on July 29, 2010, 06:47:39 PM
Dear Udai ji


Yesterday I was listening the pravachanam about Rama Krishna by Suki Shivam. After hearing it will make you spellbound. He started whether He is a avathar or maha saint. At last Shivam gave the points and it is proofed yes He is avatar only. The name itself says, Rama Krishna. I heard it in tamil. I try to write in english. We should lead our life like Rama. Rama never wrote or told how to live but He showed by living. On the other hand Krishna gave upadesa. We have to follow Krishna's upadesa but we should not do what He did. Here Rama Krishna's life shows both way of Rama & Krishna. Parama Hamsa lived like Rama and Krishna. He married like Rama and He gave upadesa like Krishna that is why Gangadhar became Rama Krishna. Therefore, each atma sadhak should read and follow either Rama Krishna or Ramana. Hope I could put what I understand.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on July 30, 2010, 12:53:49 AM
well said ramadulai garu.

Yes Lord Hanuman is said to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva.

nagraj garu your description of radha and krishna comparing to jivatma and paramatma is amazing.

Subramaian garu your research is good sir.

Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: ramanaduli on July 30, 2010, 01:03:16 AM
Dear sirs,

Radha Madhavam is a poetic style written by Atmananda. It explains what is Radha and Krishna. One should
read and understand this Radha Madhavam



Ramanaduli
Title: Re: Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 30, 2010, 09:13:51 AM

Dear Ramanaduli,

Hanuman is not an avatara of Siva, but Hanuman has got the
features of Siva, like Sri Ramakrishna has got the features of
KaLi.  In fact, Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni also described Bhagavan
Ramana as an avatara of Skanda.  Bhagavan Ramana as usual,
remained quiet on this issue.

Hanuman, Sri Ramakrishna, Bhagavan Ramana had all the noble
characteristics of the gods but they are not avataras.  It is only
euphemism that we attribute avatara-hood for these great persons.

Arunachala Siva.