Author Topic: Reality and Fact  (Read 323 times)

Shivam

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Reality and Fact
« on: November 12, 2017, 06:12:15 PM »
I have been glancing the beautiful posts here and elsewhere in books and articles randomly about the nature of Atma or Self. I just felt to ask (for my own benefit) how many of you are really successful in your practice? While the articles may be very beautiful to read and ponder and wonder, but in practical life, how many of you are able to experience the truth as conveyed? Is it really worth it to go that farther? How much farther? It puts back a question - why not live a reasonably wise life here with the acceptance of the fact that there is going to be some desire, some anger some attachment, anxieties and worries in life! The knowledge or idea or the ideal of the Self or Atma and its realization doesn't really seem to free us from these, atleast in me. This quest for Self also snatches ones share of beautiful life here, being lost in some wilderness!

Most of all, How many are able to remain unattached and untouched to the happenings of the life? Is anybody really that free from anger, desires, emotions, attachments worries and anxieties of life?

In the end, all this looks like a beautiful fairy tale novel, that is nice to read and know, but virtually impossible to cultivate in our living.

srkudai

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 08:48:53 PM »
Dear Shivam ji,
        :)

Quote
why not live a reasonably wise life here with the acceptance of the fact that there is going to be some desire, some anger some attachment, anxieties and worries in life!


Why not ? Religion is not against emotions. A liberated person does not become a zombie. A liberated person feels love for his people, has attachments, is anxious when a relative is in the hospital perhaps. The difference between a liberated person and a person in bondage is not in the absence of emotions. The difference is in the skill with which those emotions are managed. The confusion arises because a liberated person says "I have no anger". i know this ... but does he not also say "I have no body" ? :) Does that not defeat itself ? That statement "I have no anger" is from a different stand point ! One needs to understand these things clearly. Ramana got a little angry when people used to give him special treatment [esp. during lunch or dinner :) ] . Did he not ?

Self Knowledge does not snatch away normal human emotions and make us unemotional ... it enriches every experience and makes life worth living. Infact life lived without self knowledge is really lived mostly in forgetfulness. self knowledge makes one truely live life... as you live through the day you shall feel welling up of unexplainable joy continuously. you may be interacting with people in different ways, situtations may be conducive or not ... and yet there is this spring of joy within which you cannot miss ... this is self knowledge. its really getting in touch with life... all relations become beautiful. emotions , beautiful . I say this ... and if you have read my other posts ... i advocate that this world is a dream very strongly. I do not find a contradiction. When you understand the vision of the scriptures you too shall see clearly what i am saying.

Most often we really do not live a "reasonable" life ! We live a life of forgetfulness ... evening if you ask yourself "how many moments of my life have i really lived" ... if you understand this question really and ask ... you shall yourself see that a vast majority of the day was really missed. with my child but mind in the office. in the office but mind at home. going by car, but mind on my fav. pet project. is this "reasonable" really ? Please ponder. if you do not miss ... you are living a liberated life, no one needs to certify that.

Love!
Silence

Shivam

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 10:27:04 PM »
Thanks Srkudai for your patient and kind response. My question is, if the difference between a liberated person and ordinary person is just the skill alone with which a liberated person operates his life, then all other things being the same, why should Self realisation be desirable? If it cannot free you from the pain of loss of your loved one's life due to death, sorrows and other such things? If it is skill alone that one gains and makes one liberated, then it does not really appeal me so much! Afterall, with great halo in the wisdom of enlightenment aren't you only conveying the ordinary wisdom only, afterall? Of cultivating forbearance and patience and so on. What is the Self knowledge about it? Ultimately we have to cope with tragedies of life, with or without enlightenment.

No matter what dearh is imminent, sorrows are there,  worries and anxieties remain! But they say Self is free from all these, can it be true afterall? Its just is like a fairy tale. It makes me wonder if the stories in scriptures are only tales and fantasies!

srkudai

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 11:13:08 AM »
Dear Shivam ji,
          :)

The difference is not skill but knowledge. When a loved one passes away, if one feels pain, and cries. isnt it normal ?
Sri Ramakrishna cried when his mother passed away. I vaguely remember a few tears from Ramana's eyes even when one of his women devotees lost her adopted son or daughter. This is at one level.
Yet at another level there is total relaxedness [upashama] ... which is not lost even when one is going through that pain. This is very interesting. its not a divided person. its the same person. May be an example will make the point clear. when i see a movie with lot of pain... i cry, but at the same time "I" [Self :) ] remain unmoved in my seat ! It is not that i do not emote with the movie. I do emote. yet, there is a total conflictlessness with my being. That is a movie ... and This is Me. 
That "Self" is you. you are free from all these, even when they arise and pass away ... this is the experience .


It is very important to understand this difference Shivam ji, without understanding this people often tend to have many exotic ideas about liberated living that stop them from actually living a liberated life here and now. as i said the gain is total conflictlessness total inner silence inspite of all movements in mind. the movements of the mind are like clouds passing by in my presence which is total relaxed presence.

Love!
Silence

srkudai

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 01:10:57 PM »
Dear Shivam ji,
      :) Please see my post on guru sishya samvada , its an interesting discussion between a guru and a sishya, you might be interested.

Love!
Silence

atmavichar100

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 02:59:02 PM »
Dear Udai

I have sent you a PM . Kindly look into it .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Shivam

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 05:28:37 PM »
Thanks Skrudai for your response, I have not been able to spend time to read as yet, i shall however do so when i do get time.

Shivam

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 09:41:01 PM »
Dear Skrudai, you have mentioned about the conflictless inner silence inspite of all movements. What i gather from various teachings is that we are that inner consciousness that remains free and untouched. Even inspite of sufferings of life, the movements, if it remains untouched, then it should be the beneficiary, how do i benefit from it? this suffering is real and painful for me.

Ramana teachings say, enquire who is it that suffers and answer is I am suffering. And we are asked to enquire who am i.

Though it all sounds somewhat very promising, there is some impossibility here! There is a grand promise of a Self that is untouched by any sufferings! How can you suffer and not suffer at the same time? If so, then who is it that suffers and who is it that remains untouched?

srkudai

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2017, 10:46:37 AM »
Dear Shivam ji,
          :)

"I am inner consciousness that remains free and untouched" ... is a statement of knowledge, not the knowledge. this is information. one needs not the information but the insight.
its like saying love heals the lover. that is information. its ok to have information, but that does not release.
Another example is : everything is impermanent. this is said for ages, but if one understood it truely one is free. so information is not insight.

thats the reason why you genuinely ask "how does this help me" -- thats a honest person's expression that this remains information.

"This sound promising" is another way of saying the same thing Shivam ji.

The good part is the honesty , if you are open to it, it can be explored. the point here is that one cannot start with where Ramana was. We need to start where we are. We feel pain and suffering ... we need to acknowledge this and start here. we cannot say "pain is unreal" because Ramana said so ... that was Ramana's reality not ours. We need to discover that pain is unreal and then the information that pain is unreal becomes our insight our knowledge. and this is what i call is the vision of vedanta which we need to grasp - and its easy to grasp too.

Love!
Silence

paul

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 12:59:33 AM »
Hi Shivam, you?ve asked the question of all of us on this forum why we are not living a reasonably wise life here with the acceptance of the fact that there is going to be some desire, some anger some attachment, anxieties and worries in life. The simple answer is we are all living just like that.

However, the difference between your situation and ours in that we have a faith in the teachings of Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi. Why should we? The evidence from the first hand accounts of people who lived in Sri Ramanasramam with Bhagavan is overwhelming. How his grace was dispersed widely to all those who came to see him, animal and human alike. The documented evidence of his teachings on self enquiry and the spiritual benefit of Arunachala.

Each of us are working towards the goal but we know that we should never judge as to whether spiritual progress is being made or not, and we also know it may take one thousand rebirths for that goal to happen.

We also know as Graham has documented on the first page of the website:

Those who set out upon this quest are fulfilling the true purpose of life itself. This is not an easy path to follow, but be assured that every step taken in pursuit of Self-realisation, accumulates merit that is carried from birth to birth, until that final step is accomplished. This is the testimony of the Sages and doubt should never be allowed to divert you from your course.

That is the difference, we are patiently and quietly working towards the goal, each of us in our own way.

Paul




Ravi.N

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 05:38:02 PM »
Shivam,
You have asked:
"Though it all sounds somewhat very promising, there is some impossibility here! There is a grand promise of a Self that is untouched by any sufferings! How can you suffer and not suffer at the same time? If so, then who is it that suffers and who is it that remains untouched?"

What you have asked is a fundamental question and this may be understood at various levels-but it is only the direct experience of it that may give us the complete conviction and realization of the Truth.
Udai had touched upon it and perhaps may be  taking it forward...We shall for the moment take up how such a thing is not impossible!...i.e that the 'impossibility' is just our immediate notion and is not something tested and verified by us.
As a child we might have been to the doctor...and  subjected to the ubiquitous and much dreaded 'injection'...we may recall how we used to dread that awful thing and raise hue and cry and howl in pain....we used to be totally overwhelmed by the pain,momentary though it used to be.
When we grow older we are able to handle the same thing in a much better fashion....We do feel the prick and pain as before but it no longer overwhelms us...We are able to clearly localize it to that part of the body and are in a position to understand and experience ourselves as apart from it....If someone asks us whether the pain is felt,we will say 'yes,but it is manageable and is not affecting us...There is pain in that portion of the body but we are okay.
Now, is there limit to this kind of detachment?...Just what is 'bearable' and what is 'unbearable'?....Where is the limit?...This is something that depends on the state of our mind...for it is our mind that takes in the sensory data that the body transmits to the brain through the conduits called nerves...The mind takes note of the pain and takes appropriate action to see how to handle it...and as long as one is conscious,it means that the pain is indeed 'bearable'...if it is truly unbearable,the system shuts off and we become unconscious...so,Nature has provided the 'safety valve' to be released from unbearable pain....short of it,every pain is bearable depending on how our mind takes it and maintains an objectivity about it...if the mind is weak,it will advertise that pain to all and sundry and keep dwelling on it and wallow in self pity....not that the pain gets lowered but the mind seeks 'solace' from outside!...It any way has to bear the pain and the impact of the pain is felt all the more keenly...on the other hand,if one accepts the situation for what it is,one carries on despite the excruciating pain with the mind steeped in peace!...Yes,this is possible and not 'impossible' .
Ditto with mental afflictions as well...one may have challenges to be met and yet can maintain poise of mind...this is possible and doable...
Just like we can stay detached from bodily pain,we can stay detached from mental afflictions...This becomes possible as we live more and more in our inner depths...In our very core is  this 'something' that is ever at rest and unmoved by all that goes on 'outside' or periphery.
This is how Sri Ramakrishna puts this sort of a poise:

"Man may be likened to grain.  He has fallen between the millstones and is about to be crushed. Only the few grains that stay near the peg escape.  Therefore men should take refuge at the peg, that is to say, in God.  Call on Him.  Sing His name.  Then you will be free.  Otherwise you will be crushed by the King of Death."

The Sages have clearly said that this 'center' is not something private to them...it is something that all of us also share in common...in fact there are no two such centers...There is only one center so to say and this is called 'Hridayam' or the heart...and this is the permanent principle that ever stays as it is....This is The Self...and to realize this is the purpose of our brief sojourn on this earth...and this is a huge opportunity and birthright that we can and must take advantage of.

These have been verified to be actual and true by innumerable people(I am deliberately using this word) and if only we begin in right earnest,we too may claim it sooner or later.

Sri Ramakrishna says:
All will surely realize God. All will be liberated. It may be that some get their meal in the morning, some at noon, and some in the evening: but none  will go without food. All, without any exception, will certainly know their real Self.

With this sort of an emphatic affirmation,is it not worth our serious consideration?

Namaskar
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 06:16:22 PM by Ravi.N »

Shivam

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 08:33:09 PM »
"When we grow older we are able to handle the same thing in a much better fashion....We do feel the prick and pain as before but it no longer overwhelms us...We are able to clearly localize it to that part of the body and are in a position to understand and experience ourselves as apart from it....If someone asks us whether the pain is felt,we will say 'yes,but it is manageable and is not affecting us...There is pain in that portion of the body but we are okay."

Thanks Ravi, infact, what I have said previously is very similar to what you have said here. That, there isn't anything else other than the ordinary life that we are living with all its ups and downs, pains and pleasures, joys and tragedies and so on. It is a fact that we are going to have some desires, some anger some attachment, anxieties and worries in life! Isn't this a fundamental reality? I also conveyed here or elsewhere that the only wisdom i seem to find is living our life well, while we are here - alive! Being there for one and other and bearing the difficulties of life in good spirit, helping each other and moving on and eventually, there is going to be death when people connected to us will depart and we will also depart some time before or after. We have to bear the pains of our sufferings of life. This is a reality for me. There is no escape to these!

Apart from the values of good wisdom of forbearance and tolerance, loving each other, leading a life of honesty and so on, is there a superlative concept of Self Realization? A center, attaining which or realizing which we will be free from all sufferings of life - is what I referred to as impossibility! A promise, the realization of which one will be free from all these "defects" and remain ever in a "Paradise of Happiness & Immorality & Deathlessness" is something that is deeply put to question within me!

What i termed as impossibility is this attainment of some superlative Self, that is free from all of the above fundamental realities that each one of us experience. All Sages did experience these and that they were not beyond these realities. The promise of Enlightenment is like a fairy tale, i felt! Is there some some attainment actually? Who really can know?

If one is able to live reasonably well with the given realities of life, that is the highest wisdom one can exhibit. Is there any other reality than this? is what i have asked and ponder!

Ravi.N

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 08:53:30 PM »
Shivam,
As I said that we have only cursorily examined the 'impossibility' aspect that you are referring to....and I have stated that this impossibility is just a notion.I am not sure we are on the same page as yet.

You have made a statement: "It is a fact that we are going to have some desires, some anger some attachment, anxieties and worries in life! Isn't this a fundamental reality?"
Depends on what you mean by the word 'fundamental'...I will call it just incidental....and not fundamental.
If you have already come to a conclusion,then we cannot proceed with further exploration and discovery....We have to bring our discussion to a close...and all is well as ever.
namaskar

Shivam

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 09:25:18 PM »
Dear Ravi, please do continue to elaborate. What I have stated is just purely a result of living so many years of my life filled with problems in many corners! Life has been a roller-coaster ride, and all that i have learnt or all that has helped me is that whenever I fell down, I had to get up myself and walk, with no other real help outside other than oneself, learning each time from my past experience, mending my ways for the better! So based on my experience, all these years, desires, attachments, anxieties and worries in life continue - they have been and are reality! Or may I say that these trials & tribulations have been the real "God", so to say! So naturally if I had to get up & move after a fall, first I had to accept the situation as it is and resistance of it did not help, I had to mend myself and curtail my ego and inculcate all those virtues that help oneself live a good life, if I did really want good for myself!

As you suggest, i shall take them as incidental! Awaiting your views on the subject! The only reason, I came here was to explore!

Ravi.N

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Re: Reality and Fact
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 09:54:16 PM »
shivam,
I am much moved by your humility...we shall proceed slowly and steadily...We shall wind our way up from what you have felt as true and worthwhile and build up on that...I am sure our friend udai garu would like to contribute and continue from where he left off...We all shall benefit by such discussion.
I wish you the very best.
namaskar