Author Topic: What is truth? Who can know?  (Read 528 times)

Shivam

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What is truth? Who can know?
« on: October 16, 2017, 11:16:20 PM »
There are so many theories, so many schools, so many siddhantas, all proclaiming to be the supreme, I feel no one has ever known the truth and can know it truly fully! I wonder, if truly there is some Truth afterall! Sometimes all spiritual quests, no matter what school you belong to, is just a futile exercise, simply a delusion, no matter how sincere one may be! It is simply loss of mental peace in quest or pursuit of some fantasy! It is nothing afterall! It is simply better & wise to just focus your energies in living well, loving people while you live here in this world. The promise by all spiritual schools that there is much more to life than the ordinary living of life (it in its full wisdom) is quite questionable and a promise, which is nothing more than just a belief or speculation!

I see that there is no bigger truth than the ordinary life and living. There is this body of ours with life, there is birth and there is death, there is this world and real too! The people around us are very real and loving them is very real and when they suffer, it does make us suffer as well! There is pain and pleasure, very real, unlike the spiritual schools which preach and lure you that there is no death no birth, that there is a soul, which you truly are, that there is a self brahman, etc., which needs to be realised etc., that the world is just an illusion - The dream which is sold that there is a realisation upon which you cam transcend all these realities is a dream worth only a dream, actually!

I do feel that one tends to get lost in such a pursuit. We need to be really careful and not take all the words of spirituality blindly no matter how great the source of those words may seem to be.

Jewell

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 01:41:20 AM »
Dear Shivam,

So many things You said right. Many times similar thoughts came to me, especially the part which is dealt with future realisation,future fulfillment,etc. If all the Great Sages said it is Here and Now,i simply want it now. Not tomorrow,not in some distant future,or other life,but NOW. After all,it is my birthright. And there is so much justice in these lines,i feel. If there is a need for this ego to go,than take it. I never wanted it,never chose it. So take it. Do not make me to give it,coz it does not want to be given,it is not in its nature. And i do not even know how. After all,it is His,so He is the only one to decide.
These were some of the thoughts through these few years.

There is a Truth much bigger than any theory,any school,any philosophy. Something that cannot even be imagined. All Sages spoken differently because,that same Truth was colored with a vessel,in one way,in other way,it is something for each of us,for all different temperaments, and they also dealt with different stages of progress. It had different shape only,but in essence it is the same,one and Only Truth. And what kind of Truth this is,if it can fit in any theory after all. We do need such Truth. It must be much glorious and greater than anything in this whole world.

So this is so true,what You have said: 'It is simply better & wise to just focus your energies in living well, loving people while you live here in this world.'
They did nothing else than that!
 And we need to be very careful with the term illusion. It only depends from which side some things are watched from. And this is only a word,it means nothing.

I assure you that you will attain nothing and you will realise that no attainment is required. -Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
.
And it is only because ego needs attainment.

But in order to live well we must have pure mind and pure heart. We must see beyond subjectivity. There is a stage when we mix dettachment with indifference. And it is not strange because it is very hard to make the difference in the beginning.. But this is only a stage,and this stage in many cases must be passed through.

Like Buddha said,doubt all,i also think this is a good thing in the search of Truth. Especially in these times of mass Spirituality literature and Gurus. It is a freedom after all,and Freedom IS the Truth. These Gurus which are online,which claim to be realised,which give lectures,are actually not realised. 98 percent of them are not genuine. So many are dangers along this path,all must be questioned indeed. That applies on genuine teachers as well. Question all.

But we must question ourselves too. That is most important part!!!

All the Sages never gave only promise! They lived their Truth,which can be seen from Their lives,and touched and transformed so many lives. That peace we all feel when we read Their words,the peace people feel in Ramanashram,the peace people felt in Bhagavn's,Maharaj's,Sri Ramakrishna's presence is real. It is not just a empty promise,and it never will be. How sadhana,Love and Faith have impact on our character,and lives as well,is proved to be very real.
They do not lure us,we come to them. Suffering made us all come,and suffering must be dealt with.
 
They also said :"Be compassionate, Do not do anything to the other,which You do not wish to be done to you,Be kind,Be loving,Love each other like Jesus said,Take away your pride,anger and greed. 

It is just our wrong understanding. Nothing more. We need a clear vision only,and beside outside,inner justice,which applies on ourselves as well.

In some light vain,all this search looks something like this.

https://youtu.be/yCk9VAxEpD0

True spirituality gives one thing for certain,and that is To see things as they truly are. What is that if not the Truth!?

With love,
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 03:18:58 AM by Jewell »

Nishta

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 02:57:23 AM »
No doubt everything you have written is true from the perspective of the "individual". And for the "individual", the situation is rife with confusing paradoxes, conflicts and frustrations.

One can abandon the Teachings and just live life, there is nothing wrong with that if you wish. After all, in the Bhagavad Gita it states, "even those who do not know me, if their actions are just, straightforward and loving, they venerate me with the truest kind of worship". This correlates with your assertion, "It is simply better & wise to just focus your energies in living well".

However, the entire purpose of Maharshi?s Teachings is to directly "know" that the"individual" is in fact a fiction, a phantom, a ghost. Once dis-covered, all the dilemmas, paradoxes, conflicts and confusion are brought to an end. For no individual ego remains.

If you do not resonate with this core premise then I agree, as you say, "It is simply better & wise to just focus your energies in living well".

Shivam

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 09:36:23 PM »
Thank you Jewell, Nishta, for your thoughtful responses.

I have come to an understanding that there is no such truth other than the ordinary truth, the factual life of ours.

Sages found their truth, we need to find ours!

The peace experienced as a result of any spirituality is temporary! I feel, really, there isn't anything like permanent peace at all! Infact, the quest for such peace or Self is like the example provided by Ramana himself - like the grass that is tied close to the bull's nose and the bull endlessly tries to reach it without any success!

The ordinary fact of life alone remains and presents itself as it is, with the realities of life and death, pain and joy.

The only sane wisdom i feel is the unconditional acceptance of this ordinary life with its positives and negatives, and one day we will also die after experiencing the deaths of some of our friends and dear ones!

Of what use is the knowledge of Self? As a seeker, spirituality injects the poison of "Ego" so strongly that one begins to just be a blind follower. Reasoning stops when holiness steps in!

I would also like to mention that this does not mean i disregard Ramana and all other gurus. I deeply fo have respect for them all. Just this forum gave me a platform to share my thoughts. Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 10:02:18 PM by Shivam »

Subramanian.R

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »
Dear Shivam,

You minus Ego is the Truth.

Tat Tvam Asi.

Arunachala Siva.

srkudai

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 03:03:45 PM »
Dear Shivam ji,
      :)

Quote
I see that there is no bigger truth than the ordinary life and living. There is this body of ours with life, there is birth and there is death, there is this world and real too! The people around us are very real and loving them is very real and when they suffer, it does make us suffer as well! There is pain and pleasure, very real, unlike the spiritual schools which preach and lure you that there is no death no birth, that there is a soul, which you truly are, that there is a self brahman, etc., which needs to be realised etc., that the world is just an illusion - The dream which is sold that there is a realisation upon which you cam transcend all these realities is a dream worth only a dream, actually!


There is no need to discard this "ordinary life" for liberation. But there is definitely a need to observe it more deeply.
A leaf drops off the tree and it becomes humus is that death of leaf or the birth of humus ? where is birth and where is death ?
There is body ?? What you call body is really a process. molecules move in and out of it continuously ... its like a river ... someone said no one can place his feet in the same river twice ! no one can have the same body any two moments of time !

and ..., who suffers ?

Lets look at this ordinary life deeply ... nay , clearly and properly as it is !!
This so called body , its solidarity , feeling of me and mine ... where are they ?
What you call body is only certain sensations , do we see this ?

Love!
Silence

Shivam

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 10:17:44 PM »
Dear Srkdai, thabk you for your thougts. Just as scientists give us scientific reasons or explanation for their views, similarly a spiritualist give us a spiritual reasons or explanation supporting their views.

But, honestly, i find both delusive. All the ones who spoke about immortal soul have died. They have suffered as everyone. Even if there is such a thing like pure self, how does it improvise your condition. In the name of Self, one is only making himself more mature that is all. Infact he is only coming to terms with the ordinary fact of life of birth and death and pains and pleasures of life. One remains as one already was! There is nothing halo in it! It is simply an empty promise! The knowledge of Self does not change this reality! They say so long ego remains, you are not it! When ego goes, it comes! What gain is it when i am naught? Who really wants it? We are all chasing a dream, a mirage in the name of spiritual quest, actually.

The only takeaway for me is that of wisdom of good living from all the teachers and sciences. Meditation, yoga such practices etc helps us to calm ourselves. The rest, i.e. the esoteric aspects such as Self realisation, etc., is very delusive, and it keeps you away from bare reality in promise of some superlative reality, which is seen or understood to be just the ordinary only! There is nothing special in it. What does one gain by merely proving either scientifically or spiritually the birthlessness or deathlessness of any being? How does this knowledge help anybody? Perhaps, it may only help to the extent of coping up with the suffering or the death of somebody! But how stupid it is, to say that only body has died and Self is eternal! How does the immortality of the Self helped you? Does it help in anyway? Does it help you from the pain of suffering of separation? Its not true.

This body is real, call it molecule or jiva, this alone is truly fit to be respected and loved. Science may see it as molecule, spiritualists may see it as jiva, but i see it ad a person just as we all are, worthy of loving and being loved. We are born and we will die along with others:some time. While we live, only these moments we will cherish till we die! Nobody can know anything beyond this. Whether there is god or soul, who knows? Who can truly say?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 10:29:52 PM by Shivam »

srkudai

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 11:01:59 AM »
Dear Shivam ji,
         :) You have mistaken this knowledge. The knowledge is not about birthlessness or deathlessness of "someone" or "some-soul" !
This knowledge liberates here and now. its not some kind of delayed "hope"... nor is it an escape from suffering.
Immortality of "Self" does not help you either ... because what ever that Self is ... we seem mortal !

The objections you raise are due to wrong knowledge. Some information imagined to be knowledge. True Knowledge liberates here and now and your remaining life becomes a simple joy ride 24 7 ... evry moment. That is the use. It is not the immortality of a "Self" !!

Also Shivam ji, If you experience a kind of comfort when you explain that this is all real ... that is because of acceptance. i can pretty well understand that you do feel some kind of nice-ness or comfort when you say "this is how things are" ... because you "accepted" things as they are... and you feel nice... but the question is ... why does one feel nice when one accepts ?

BTW :D ... how to you know "no body can know beyond this " ? :P

Love!
Silence

Jewell

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 06:37:20 PM »
Dear Shivam,

Leave all theories aside,and just live a life and be happy. There is nothing wrong in that,actually,that is the point.

But,raising these questions,and all You have wrote is telling me You are not certain in Your theories either. How is that that You accepted death as a fact,but are so much troubled by the ego death?

Bhagavan Sri Ramana experienced 'realization' in 1896,and He left the body in 1950. So,it is obvious,He did not die with realization. He lived the life dedicated in helping us. He always stressed one thing,there is no Ego self and the Self. There is only One Self. Illusion is about the role,not about the actor,so to say. Realization denies separation,not life and the world itself. With realization comes the knowledge that all is the Self. That's all. Our existence will not be terminated with the ego death. Only selfishess dies,not You.

Do You accept only what You see and can touch? Do You believe in Love? Can You touch Love,can You tell me,is Love is made of atoms or what is Her substance? ?


With love,

« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 05:01:43 PM by Jewell »

Shivam

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 08:24:42 PM »
In the afternoon, there was one post written by somebody, i wanted to read it again, but now i do not find it here. I did not even notice the name of that forum member. But what was written by that member was very beautiful and so grounded and honest. Thank you.

Jewell

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 03:15:01 AM »
Dear Shivam,

That beautiful post was written by our dear friend Sri Silentgreen.

With love,

silentgreen

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 11:18:47 AM »
Reposting:

Observation: All the ones who spoke about immortal soul have died. They have suffered as everyone. Even if there is such a thing like pure self, how does it improvise your condition?

Adding to it: Often the ones who spoke about immortal souls died a harsher death and lived life like a beggar. The sufferings they faced in life seem to be more than that of ordinary people.

On top of this, many of them voluntarily embraced such life.

So, upon what premise did they stand? Or chasing what mirage did they live?

They say: They stand on the foundation which calms the mind during meditation. Otherwise, what hope is there of calming a mind through some meditational activities, when mind by nature is restless?

They also say: They stand on the foundation which is the cause of glory in any charitable acts. Otherwise what hope is there of feeling a good feeling while giving charity to bodily-unconnected beings when one's money is getting drained away?

But what about their haggard appearance in life and unnecessary sufferings? What about their chasing a mirage in life?

They say: They are not chasing any mirage. They have really found an extension within their soul which is very blissful. What fulfillment one gets through meditation and charities are all added up there. In fact it is the source. They no longer find interest in the show of outer life.

But what about final death? With all the big talks and philosophies, finally your refuge is the fire, or the soil. And by following you one will ruin their present life and may also end up being a beggar.

They say: Because of death, they are also in a hurry, to optimize the joy in this life. Doing piece-by-piece activities and deriving small-small joys is tedious. To optimize the process, they started searching for a source of joy where one can take a plunge. The call of their soul pulled them inside, and they were at least partially successful. They found a pool within the extension of the soul itself.

But what about practical life? One's own daily bread and daily bread of dependents.

They say: Some part of life-balance is ruined in the quest. That is why they are like beggars. For the married ones, sometimes their wives will run after them with a broom and hurl curses. Regular blows will also come from society. But what is discovered is the source of fulfilment and what they focussed upon.

Anchoring within the source of bliss, the beggar sips the juice like drinking the juice with a straw. One day the beggar will die but leave behind a quest for another soul with an inner call.

So we see that they wear the shirt of life in reverse direction. There is amazing diversity in creation.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Shivam

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 05:59:43 PM »
Thank you Silentgreen for reposting the same.

ksksat27

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 03:18:27 PM »
Dear Shivam

others here well learned devotees have offered you hundreds of nice explanations.

but I feel to give this explanation to you... For you, your life , with your pleasures and pain ( if any substantial) makes you feel so attached to this material world...this type of theory was there even in vedic times... there was one Kapila muni of atheism ( there were two kapilas) . one of them of agni dynasty propelled this sarikhya philosophy...

so what i am going to say is, nothing stops you from enjoying life and indulging in the pleasures it offers...
why bother about others and disturb your peace?

who bothered if you are following religion or a saint?   Why should you caution others ?
we know to take care of ourselves.

So my piece of humble advice is, please carry on enjoying to the fullest..may be along with all the charity and big green earth funda..
dont worry about all these saints...  but don't post your inferences because it is very demotivating for others...

for thousands here Maharishi is the life breath... so please dont this scientific approach in a spiritual forum...

ekarshe

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Re: What is truth? Who can know?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 06:24:57 PM »
Without having initiated into the proper suggestions of the Shastras and interpreting them the way we like and concluding that all these is a bluff, is but a common mistake of every newcomer into the spiritual world. The great scientist Albert Einstein once said, Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.

When the Upanishads or the Srutis which is the Supreme Authority of every school in India, says that the world is "Unreal", it only refers to its ever-changing nature, and thus various names are given like 'Jagat' , so that we know the objective world is in a constant state of flux. The Srutis very clearly indicates that the Self is not an object of consciousness, yet we foolishly try to "see" or "percieve" it, holding on to our spiritual practices with great enthusiasm for few weeks or months. When we fail, we complain that it is all false. It is only an error in Judgement.

I agree to what you said, there is no greater Truth than ordinary life, but the Great Rishis like Bhagavan Ramana when speaking about a greater reality they only wants us to give up this notion that "I am by nature a limited entity" - which is the cause for all sorrow. From the standpoint of the Absolute, their is neither the Jiva (Individual Soul), nor is there a Supreme Reality (Brahman).

Chandogya Upanishad beautifully puts it:

yatra nanyat pasyati nanyat srnoti nanyad vijanati sa bhuma-tha. yatra anyat pasyati srnoti anyat vijanati tad-alpam yo vai bhuma tad amrtam atha tad-alpam tan martyam sa bhagavah kasmin pratisthita iti sve mahimni yadi va na mahimniti

"There where nothing is perceived as other, nothing is heard as other, nothing is known as other - that is Infinite (Bhuma); where something is perceived as other, something is heard as other, something is known as other- that is finite (Alpam); That which is Infinite (bhuma), that is Immortal; what is finite (Alpam), that is mortal." Where is, Sir, this Bhuma abiding? "It abides in its own grandeur - which is non-grandeur."