Author Topic: Committing mistakes  (Read 1572 times)

Krishnan

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Committing mistakes
« on: August 30, 2016, 09:54:25 PM »
Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya
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Dear Devotees,

In this path towards non-doership, I find it easier to let go of the 'good' done through me as being actions of the Higher power, but somehow the inadvertent 'mistakes' committed by me, I find hard to assign to the higher power as the doer. I wanted to get your opinions on this asymmetry. Can this be thought of as the action of Maya trying to use 'guilt' as a means of entrapment? Does the committing of mistakes by us, who are working towards the path of 'correct' action, be considered as a means to obliterate the notion of doership in us? Meaning, since we consider ourselves to work towards not committing mistakes at all, but since mistakes/wrong actions are committed by us, does it mean we are not the doers but merely the tools of the action being committed? Please understand that I am not justifying the committing of wrong actions here! On another level, the very idea of good and bad are created by the mind and this dichotomy is fictitious at the deeper level.

Bhagavan says that the notion of Karma and destiny exists only for the outward turned mind and that if there is the notion of doership, then both Karma and destiny exist as well. As we all know, even in the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord urges Arjuna to continue with his actions, as they have already been committed and that he is only the tool through which it is being manifest in that form. And the very beginning of the teachings is rooted in the 'guilt' that Arjuna feels on having to kill his own cousins and the Lord motivates Arjuna to continue with his actions/duties of a Kshatriya. There it is a competition of two good vs. evil debates - (a) usurping the Pandavas from their throne and (b) killing of one's own brethren. One 'good' cannot be better than the other 'good', I feel. Though as the Lord hints, this debate does not even exist as the actions have already been committed.

In summary, I find it orders of magnitude easier to quietly let go of the doership of the 'positive' actions committed by me, but am unable to shake off the notion of my doership considering the 'negative' actions!

All discussions will be appreciated.

Namaskarams,
Krishnan
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Nagaraj

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2016, 09:36:41 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The answer to your query is quite interwoven in your own expressions as well! You have quite very frankly expressed yourself!

There is a right and upright reasoning within yourself rebelling within you over the counterpart that is trying to wash off hands by using the tatva that it is the almighty Lord who is the real doer, and even the mistakes that are being committed by me is not really mine!

This reminds me of Duryodhana -

janami dharmam na cha me pravrutthih janamyadharmam na cha me nivrutthih |
kenaapi devena hrudhisthithena yatha niyuktosmi thatha karomi ||


"I know what is dharma (=righteousness), yet I cannot get myself to follow it! I know what is adharma, yet I cannot retire from it! O Lord of the senses! You dwelt in my heart and I will do as you impel me to do."

Your rebel reflection within you is somewhat trying to reason its self like this. However your good higher self is not giving up the fight! Thanks to your Poorva Punya Sukruta, it is sending out flowers of guilt, it is throwing up correct lights of reflections onto you, so is your counterpart as well sending you reflections for its battle!

Krishna says -

उद्धरेदात्मनात्मानं नात्मानमवसादयेत् ।
आत्मैव ह्यात्मनो बन्धुरात्मैव रिपुरात्मनः ॥

uddharedātmanātmānaṃ nātmānamavasādayet,
ātmaiva hyātmano bandhurātmaiva ripurātmanaḥ.

By the self thou shouldst deliver the self, thou shouldst not depress and cast down the self (whether by self-indulgence or suppression); for the self is the friend of the self and the self is the enemy.

Finally, the effort here is to realise your true nature, the real effort is to realise the Truth that is. Once the Truth is realised, everything will fall in place. There when such a realised being even makes a wrong, or mistake, it will turn out to be a great blessing - our great Rishi Durvasa is beautiful example, Sage Narada is yet another beautiful example.

Strive to realise God or Truth, Atmaartham Prithiviim Tyajet - for the sake of Atma sacrifice whole world says a Subhashita.

Finally, Lord Krishna in Gita says in the last chapter in the last few verses as follows -

ति ते ज्ञानमाख्यातं गुह्याद्गुह्यतरं मया ।
विमृश्यैतदशेषेण यथेच्छसि तथा कुरु ॥

iti te j?ānamākhyātaṃ guhyādguhyataraṃ mayā,
vimṛśyaitadaśeṣeṇa yathecchasi tathā kuru.

So have I expounded to thee a knowledge more secret than that which is hidden: having reflected on it fully, do as thou wouldst.

So, no the ones rests on yourself, reflect well, get your mind pure - to be able to discriminate well, reason well, and do what is best for your self. Doing best here should mean doing Hitham to yourself and not necessarily what is good for you. Wisdom is in knowing the differfence!

I have expressed my thoughts in general, but again it would vary according to your specific question based on your real experience!

« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 09:40:32 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2016, 09:51:21 PM »
some more random thoughts...

The absolute Self or God is Absolute Perfection, so long as some imperfection remains, it only shows that there is still a Dehatma buddhi, some body identification, one has to enquire and go the root and remove the root of ignorance tree that is, not merely the branches alone. Because, if the Truth has been realised, then, there can be no mistakes at all. There is only Truth alone!

How can some thing happen inadvertently by us? Only when we are un-alert, then alone something good or bad can happen! When something done by us inadvertently ends up in some good, we feel happy, but at the same time, when something bad happens then we feel sorry, isn't it? why is it so like this? If we hold that God alone is the real doer then it should really not worry us much? But it is not so, no matter what consolation we may get from any scriptures or no matter how much we may twist the various quotes of various masters and Sages to suit our opposite reasoning, ultimately we have to face our own conscience within, we are answerable to our own conscience in the last! If it passes through this, then you will know the difference between independent will and God will.

Krtishnan, these days, i have seen many serious spiritual seekers take many quotes conviniently from manay scriptures, such as Yoga Vasishtam and Ashtavakra Gita and the likes and use certain shlokas that seem to convey that once self is realised you are free and no matter what you do you remain untainted! We are seeing real examples in popular so called Gurus today caught up in various scams and what not!

Always look upto the Rishi Margam, How have they lived, always have a benchmark of your Guru, who ever it is, what would he have done in your case, in your example that you have quoted. Ponder, pray ask your guru to show light.



APOLOGY TO HORNETS

One day a disciple said to Bhagavan, "When you stepped on a hornet's nest, mistaking it for a bush and the hornets attacked your leg and stung it badly, why did you feel remorse for what had happened only accidentally, as if you had done it intentionally?"

Bhagavan replied:

When I was stung by hornets in revenge Upon the leg until it was inflamed, Although `twas but by chance I stepped upon
Their nest, constructed in a leafy bush; What kind of mind is his if he does not At least repent for doing such a wrong ?

The story relating to the above is as follows:
One day when Bhagavan was climbing about the Hill as was his wont in the early days of his sojourn in Tiruvannamalai, his leg struck against a hornet's nest and disturbed the hornets. They attacked him in a body and stung his leg and thigh very badly so that it became terribly swollen and painful. Bhagavan expressed great sorrow for what he had done unwittingly. He would not move from the place till they had finished the punishment and flown away.



One day when Ramana inadvertently bumped against a sparrow?s nest, an egg fell out and cracked. He was dismayed and cried out to his attendant Madhava, ?Look, look what I have done today! Oh,the poor mother will be so sorrow-stricken, perhaps angry with me also, at my causing the destruction of her expected little one! Can the cracked eggshell be pieced together again? Let us try!?

So saying he took a piece of wet cloth, wrapped it around the broken egg and laid it back into its nest. Each third hour he took it out again, removed the cloth, took it in his hand and glanced at it for a few minutes. Seven days later, after taking the egg from its nest, he announced with the astonishment of a schoolboy, ?Look what a wonder! The crack has closed.? Some days later he found the egg hatched out, the little bird had come out. With a face beaming with joy he took the nestling into his hand, stroked and caressed it and handed it to the others, that they could also admire it.



Sage-Hood is not easy, it requires our highest alertness and attention! There are many such stories, you will find in Bhagavan's life itself, also Sri Ramakrishna's life, Swami Rama Tirtha as well. If you have any Dharam Samshayam, look for answers from the source of your Guru. You will definitely find them.

--
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 10:10:31 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 10:13:38 PM »
I very much appreciate your spirit Krishnan -

Quote
to let go of the 'good' done through me as being actions of the Higher power, but somehow the inadvertent 'mistakes' committed by me, I find hard to assign to the higher power as the doer.

Quote
In summary, I find it orders of magnitude easier to quietly let go of the doership of the 'positive' actions committed by me, but am unable to shake off the notion of my doership considering the 'negative' actions!

This is cent-percent in line with the roots of our Sanathana Dharma.

You know what is to be done, even though you have let out your query in open.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ksksat27

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 12:47:45 PM »
I am another Krishna ( ksksat) here.  :)


" On another level, the very idea of good and bad are created by the mind "

dear Krishnan,

what you have written is applicable for someone who is very matured that he is in the borderline of doership.  even though we are not the doer , 99% of the masses has deep rooted karmic debts that continues through many life times.

renouncing doer ship is a by-product by serious sadhana, contemplation of ribhu gita,  vichara, abhyasa and dhyana .

Maharishee has advised only to pursue sadhana. if I commit a sin and think I am not the doer, then also the karma will come back on me. because I am still not matured really to renounce the sin action .  same holds for punyas. 

it does not really matter what you think of doership, whether you think you are the doer or Self is the ultimate doer.   

what you think does not matter.

It is that matters that is our internal purity gained through sadhana and guru's grace.

with that great internal purity, the Self would have assumed all doership to itself but sadhaka will still humbly think that he is responsible for his actions.  this is the right spirit. 

actually it does not matter what the sadhaka thinks of doership.

all he has to do is constant pursue of sadhana.   

Maharishi did not ask to sit and bother who is the doer after every action.   

we need to only do sadhana in various way he has described. not to measure progress .  not to worry about who did the act really.

Krishnan

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2016, 08:43:14 AM »
Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya
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Dear Sri Nagaraj and Sri Krishna,

Thank you for your replies and discussions. Thank you Sri Nagaraj for alluding to the inner battle as well and sharing the analogies of Bhagavan.

It is true that the Mahabharata is considered as an allegory to the fight within, between good and bad vasanas. It is curious though that the great epic has an ending that not many people may be familiar with. Even Duryodhana goes to 'swarga' as having fought in the war like a true kshatriya and having often been a good king, he merited that place. There are also some instances where some divine 'miracles' aid the Pandavas, who might have been on the verge of defeat. This thus leads me to often re-think about the very notion of 'good' and 'bad' and whether intention can be used to explain actions. Perhaps there is no need to explain or try to understand it, and what is only required as Bhagavan says, is to be still.

But I guess as long as this body-identification remains, these traits and dichotomies will remain. Only when the knower, the knowledge and the known merge into one, will these doubts vanish. Until then, the effort has to continue towards effacing the mind - subduing it is insufficient.

Namaskarams,
Krishnan
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 10:14:23 AM by Krishnan »

ksksat27

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2016, 11:15:36 PM »
dear krishnan

there are many doubts and confusions that come on these topics to many of us.

but we need not complicate things.

that is why in the first place we have to set the basics right. 

our pious pooja, the stothras on lord shiva, worship of ishwara, chanting of sri rudram etc. are definitely meriotorious activities.

in other end, seeing porn videos, getting lust , gambling, wine, etc. are definitely tamasic and will submerge us in darkness.

having this basics understood, we need not really worry who is the doer, etc.

when bhagavan asked to read ribhu gita, he told the cook lady that understanding intellectually does not matter.

so in that bhava we have to simply read the great lines.

This doership thing is very complex.

I may be liberated from an act even though i thought i did it.

contarily , i may be bound by an act even though by intellect i did a contemplation that i am not the doer.

this is done by the Active Saguna Brahman or Ishwara automatically.    Ishwara being the Antharyaami within us , sees it all and in his presence the fruits are decided.

so these good intentions , motive etc. are very complex subjects.

at any given time, let us do what we feel as fits most.  that is all.

as valluvar told, 'poimayiyum vaaimai idathe'

if at every step, we calculate all this complex intention, karma, doership, good, bad , heaven etc.  that will not lead us anywhere.

i will give a simple example.

many people has told that gayathri should not be broadcast.

but in youtube there are lot of gayathri songs posted with good intent by CD companies.

now if people hear this, will it do harm? is it not better than hearing love & lustful porn songs?

During avani avittam, how many of us do second time bath after maha sankalpam for changing the thread?

does it mean we all have committed offense ( snana manthra was given only for diseased people)

but still, when i do avani avittam properly, at home even with one bath, there is something in me like an intuition gives me full satisfaction .  where does this sprout from?  it is automatic response.

so i think there is intelligence in Cosmic Consciousness that re-arranges things as per the needs of the time.


Krishnan

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2016, 10:55:32 PM »
Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya
------------------------------------

Dear Krishna,

Well said! Reading and interpreting philosophy and spirituality is sometimes like the traction used to launch a glider. It is necessary to launch it, but if it continues to remain attached to the glider, it will impede its free flight and thus needs to be released. Similarly, reading texts and thinking/analyzing is important to get one's thought process in the 'right' direction, but then beyond a certain critical point, it becomes an impediment and therefore eventually one needs to let go of over-thinking and instead just 'be still'.

Namaskarams,
Krishnan

shiba

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Re: Committing mistakes
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2016, 09:56:59 AM »
>In this path towards non-doership, I find it easier to let go of the 'good' done through me as being actions of the Higher power, but somehow the inadvertent 'mistakes' committed by me, I find hard to assign to the higher power as the doer.

I also sometimes think about such matters, so i will write my opinion. 

Our actions ,good or bad, are ordained by the Higher power , whether we surrender or not, is the fact as Bhagavan said.  But quality of our actions is decided on the purity of our mind. The higher power assign what our bodies should do according to quality of our minds. Of course , even bad actions cant be done without higher power's ordinance, but that badness reflect our badness of mind, not of the higher power.

And  about path towards non-doership, it is subtle point though, I think you should try to let go of doership first and not let go of the good or bad actions that have already done by you. If non-doership is really realized, the problem to assign your actions to higher power don't exist at all logically. You try to surrender to higher power and your surrender is of course incomplete at first. Maybe you surrender 10 percents of your doership to the higher power , but 90 percents of your doership still remains and bad action still being done by that 90 percents.

To obliterate doership is path of surrender and not to assign our action done already through doership to higher power.