Author Topic: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:  (Read 1845 times)

Subramanian.R

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In Advaita Vedanta philosophy, two types of attainment are spoken of;  attainment of the not-yet-attained
and attainment of the already attained.  What has not been attained, for instance, the attainment of a new
automobile, is achieved in space and time. It is attained by effort and produces a limited result, e.g. a new car.
This type of attainment always involves both gain and loss.  One gains a new condition and loses an old
condition.

However, Vedanta also talks about another type of attainment.  It is called, 'obtaining the already obtained'
-- praptasya praptih, or, 'getting rid of what you have not got.'  To obtain the already obtained involves
neither space nor time.  One can obtain only that which one does not already have.  Since one always is the
Self, when one realizes this fact, it is designated as 'obtaining the already obtained.' 

Realizing, attaining and reaching the goal only have a figurative meaning according to Bhagavan Ramana.
If the goal, Self Realization, is to be reached, obtained anew, it cannot be permanent.  The goal must
already be there.  Why?  If an individual seeks to reach the goal with his or her ego, how can they reach
it?  The goal must have existed before the ego searched for it and when the ego is destroyed, what is there
only the eternal Self, as it ever was!  Thus 'bondage' and 'release'  must only pertain to the ego and not to
the Self. Where duality exists, there bondage and release make sense. But, if there is no duality, if duality
only exists in the mind or the ego of an individual, then who is to be released and by what?  When the mind
ceases through Self Inquiry, it will be discovered that there is neither bondage nor liberation.

contd.,

Arunachala Siva.                     

Subramanian.R

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Re: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2016, 11:48:41 AM »
Bhagavan said:

'If the Self were to be reached, it would mean that the Self is not here and now, but that it should be got
anew.  What is got afresh will also be lost.  So it will be impermanent.  What is not permanent is not worth
striving for.  So I say, the Self is not reached. You are the Self.  You are already That. The fact is that
you are ignorant of your blissful state.  Ignorance supervenes and draws a veil over the pure Bliss.
Attempts are directed only to remove this ignorance, which consists in wrong knowledge.  The wrong
knowledge consists in the false identification of the Self with the body, the mind,  etc., This false identity
must go and there remains the Self. (Talks 251).

The essence of Bhagavan's teaching which He persistently declared, again and again, is, 'You are That,
here and now.'  To the person who objects, 'But is not my search proof of my having become lost?' the
reply comes, 'No, it only shows that you believe you are lost.'  For, what are you in search of?  How can
you find that which you already are?  A sage once said, 'Let me tell you a simple fact.  If you set aside
your ego for a moment, you will realize that you, the traveler, are that which you are seeking.  Everything
is within you.'  (Talks 359).

contd.,

Arunachala Siva.                       

Subramanian.R

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Re: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 11:05:15 AM »
Or, to word it another way, 'Any seeking is denial of the presence of the sought'.  Lord Ramana remarked,
'The word 'liberation' (mukti) is so provoking. Why should one seek it?  One believes that there is bondage
and therefore seeks liberation.  But the fact is that there is no bondage, but only liberation.  Why call it by
a name and seek it?'  The questioner adds, 'True, but we are ignorant'.  Bhagavan replied: 'Only remove
ignorance.  That is all there is to be done.  (Talks 359).  All questions relating to Mukti are inadmissible;
because Mukti means release from bondage which implies existence of bondage.  There is no bondage
and therefore no Mukti either. (Talks 362).

To understand Advaita's views regarding Moksha Sadhana, it is crucial that one understand the distinction
employed between the Absolute (Paramartika) and the relative (Vyavaharika) points of view. (Mandukya
Karika 4.25.; Brahma Sutra Bhashya 1.1.11).  Without being absolutely clear regarding this distinction,
it is likely that one misinterpret the teachings.  One must absolutely clear that these two 'levels' , two
'truths' are but a pragmatic device and do not mean that there are really two truths or levels.  Reality
is One though it can be viewed from two perspectives.                 

contd.,

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2016, 11:45:17 AM »
To illustrate point of perspectives with a simple analogy:  From the sun's perspective, the sun neither
rises nor sets; there is neither darkness nor concealment nor varying shades of light. By definition,
darkness cannot be where light is.  However, from the perspective of an individual upon the earth,
the sun rises and sets;  there are both light and darkness and varying shades in between, and it is valid
to label  the sun's light an enemy of darkness.  Two seemingly contradictory propositions, both equally valid,
and true (from different viewpoints), once  their particular perspectives are correctly understood.
Nevertheless, note that what is valid from one perspective is not from another.  From the sun's perspective,
'all is light'. From darkness' perspective, there is relative light and relative darkness, and every shade
in between.  The question is, 'Which do you identify with; are you the physical body, or are you the Self?
Further, contemplate, 'Has the sun ever seen darkness?'

While Bhagavan acknowledges that distinctions appear unique and individual at the empirical level,
all distinctions lose their distinct individuality from the Absolute point of view.  That is, 'All this is
Brahman'  is absolutely true while 'all this individually separate and distinct' is relatively true. What is true
from one point of view or level of reality is not from another. However this does not mean there are two
realities.  There is one Reality, as seen from the two different perspectives.  Sri Ramana held that one
perspective is from the point of view of ignorance;  it is relatively true, (the sun seemingly rises and sets),
while the other point of view is from the perspective of wisdom (the sun neither rises nor sets).  A person
may see the sun traverse across the sky, and yet everyone knows that it does not move!  Water is seen
in a mirage, and yet there never has been water there nor will there be, nor is there now.

contd.,

Arunachala Siva.                         

Subramanian.R

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Re: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2016, 11:32:34 AM »
From the point of view of ignorance of the Self,  Advaita admits of numerous distinctions, while from the
absolute perspective of wisdom of a sage, there is only Brahman / Atman, One and Non dual.  Thus,
there is no dissolution, nor origination, none in bondage, and none liberated.  This is the Absolute Truth.
(Mandukya Upanishad Karika II. 32).

Bondage is not denied at the empirical level and, at the absolute level, the question of bondage does not
arise.  When all is one, for whom there be bondage?  The same holds true in regards to the seeking of
freedom.  It is all a matter of perspective.

Freedom is not a goal to be reached in some remote space by an actual movement, either mental or physical.
The state of freedom is exempt from all change. This means that its character is natural and not phenomenal.
It is independent and has its own intrinsic value.  It does not fall within time. 'Moksha is the state of freedom
where the stream of time has stopped.'  (Chandogya Upanishad Bhashya 8.12.3.).

From the Absolute or Sage's experience, individuals are neither bound nor free.  Adi Sankara did not deny
the human experience of bondage.  What he did was to relegate it to the realm of empirical reality. 
It is really but a figure of speech to say that individuals become free.  The true nature of the individual
is always free and a real alienation is impossible. If alienation were real, it would never be overcome.
However, due to the confusion born of ignorance, conscious realization of this nature is not effected. Thus,
a spiritual discipline is laid down in order to dispel the clouds of ignorance that seemingly cover the Self.
The illusion of the loss of one's Self is removed and its seeming recovery is spoken of as the attainment of
freedom.

contd.,

Arunachala Siva.               
         

Subramanian.R

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Re: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2016, 11:39:25 AM »
A question raised in Vedantic philosophy is this:  Can you attain and keep what you have not already attained,
or, to put it slightly differently, can you attain what you already have?  If you are going to get something
that you did not have before, what good is it?  Since you did not have it before and get it now, there is
every possibility, if not actuality, that you will lose it at some time in the future.  Anything that comes
necessarily goes; that is the law of the universe. And the question of getting what you already have is
ridiculous, is not it?

This so called gaining of the Self has often been compared by Bhagavan to the gaining of a necklace supposed
to be lost.  A person imagines that she has lost her necklace while all the time it is round her neck.  She goes
frantically searching for it here and there.  A friend comes along, inquires as to what was the object of
her search, notices the necklace around her neck (the very person who is the victim of a delusion),
and points out her error to her.  She jumps with glee and joyfully exclaims, 'I have got my necklace back.'
Did she ever lose her necklace?  Did she gain it afresh now?  She merely obtained the already obtained.


contd.,

Arunachala Siva.             
     
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 10:48:26 AM by Subramanian.R »

Subramanian.R

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Re: Praptasya Prapatti - John Grimes - Mountain Path - April - June 2016:
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2016, 10:55:34 AM »
Likewise, knowing the Self means being the Self, and not knowing it while apparently being other than
it.  A person wrongly imagines that something is lost, the Self, and that it must be found.  A day will
dawn when such a person will laugh at all their futile efforts.

Sri Ramana used various analogies and would relate each of them in His own wonderful way in order
to illustrate this 'un-covering' of the always existent Absolute, this 'obtaining of the already attained;.
There is the woman who, forgetting her necklace is around her neck, goes anxiously in search of it.
There is the prince who was abandoned in a forest in his infancy and grew up thinking that he was the
son of a hunter.  The third is about ten rustics who, upon crossing a river,. each counted the other nine,
and forgetting to count himself, bewailed the fact that one of their party had drowned.  The last analogy
is the donkey-lion analogy.  In truth, the necklace was never lost, the prince was never not a prince,
the tenth man was never drowned and the lion was never a donkey.

concluded.

Arunachala Siva.