Author Topic: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)  (Read 2747 times)

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« on: November 11, 2015, 03:02:13 AM »
There is no world in one's deep sleep state. The world entirely merges in the Self in deep sleep, and as soon as my mind( ego) reappear , my ego's body and the world come to be constructed like dream world. That is to say, creation process is the following - ego>ego's body>the world(including many egos and their bodies). This process may be done almost in a instant so we all don't notice the process.

The above is my understanding of drsti-srsti vada, instantaneous creation of Bhagavan Ramana which probably links with eka-jiva vada. How do members of this forum think about this :)? I myself still have some or many doubts about my understanding still :-[.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 04:38:38 AM by shiba »

Anand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Anand
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 07:52:57 PM »
I think there are two ways of presenting the same truth.
First:- As per the predispositions of all the jivas of the world ,there is an illusory play created consisting of the screen and all the actors in it .
Further based on his disposition , the jiva imagines itself as one of the characters of the play.This is the waking state .In the deep state , the jiva is not dreaming as one of the characters any longer and hence the illusory dream is not seen.The above mentioned illusory play may seem real for each Jiva since the original source is Brahman and one may say the divine Sakti(the creative energy of Brahman) is moving things among the jivas and other objects animate or inanimate  .
Second :- The other theory is Eka Jiva wherein each Jiva imagines itself as a person  and also imagines  a world consisting of similar persons around him,apart from animals , things etc.There may be other such jivas each imagining its own universe .In deep sleep state we rest in  our bliss full self without seeing the world which we ourselves have created.If we read some of Bhagavan's teachings - I am not able to pinpoint where exactly these appeared, it may seem at these places  he substantiated this theory eg "Arent we always alone " or "Are the wife children outside you or  within you ".
The reason why eka Jiva theory is not popular is becauuse it is misrepresented  when someone is reasoing out this theory -the well intending but erroneous philospher imagines his spurious self as real(Jiva) and the persons around himself as unreal i.e making a complete mess of the theory.It should be reasoned as the one self imagines itself as a Jiva and by virtue of this wrong imagination creates so may other jivas all based on the falsehood of the first jiva - hence in a certain sense the wording ek Jiva is not correct.Thus creation is a mirror which brings out the dispositions of the first jiva and which helps progressively  weeds out all his impurities, by forming a stage to act out his dispositions.
Thus all the evils in this world that we hear about like wars , terrible accidents  are just illusory happenings meant to be for imparting some philosophical value to us apart from what we intimately experience.
It may be noted that Bhagavan also at some places substantiated the first theory i.e a divine sakti moving all preprogrammed jivas eg  when he said that "the divine law is impeccable and always knows when to act and when".So it seems Bhagavan was open to both theories , but heart in heart knowing that the final truth is ajata  and hence choosing not to take a particular stand since both stands are still based on illusory happenings seemingly real because of the power of Brahman.
Since both of the above are two different ways of expressing the truth (of course the higher truth is ajata vada) we can accept whichever theory appeals to his mental makeup and spurs him to self enquiry so that one realises the final truth for himself .
Regards,
Anand Sundaram.
Sundaram Anand

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 02:02:38 AM »
to Anand Sundaram,

Helped by what you wrote, I will try to summarize the creation theories of Bhagavan.

The First view is srsti-drsti vada and has rather affirmative attitude about the world, or to express it in different way, the unreality of the world expressed not explicitly but implicitly. It may be the view of shaktism, and I think Bhagavan surely sometimes took this position, and this may be closely connected with Sri chakra which was installed by Bhagavan himself.

The second view, eka-jiva vada or drsti-srsti vada  has rather negative attitude about the world. It reject the world as mere unreality like "not this, not this". I think what is difficult to accept this view is that it is totally contrary to our common sense. No one think when we go to sleep, the world also disappear. The world still there when we sleep ,we normally don't doubt about this before we hear about some special theories. And the instantaenous creation, that the creation occurs in a instant as soon as ego arise from the Self, is also difficult to accept. Though, our dream experience help us to a certain extent to say " such thing may be possible".

The third view is ajata vada. I think, if like dream this waking world totally disappears, and the Self alone remains, to express such a view may be conceivable, though the exponent of such vada seems to exist before us being included in  the world is still difficult to understand...  Anyway I think drsti-srsti vada directly leads to ajata-vada.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 07:14:04 PM by shiba »

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 01:04:13 PM »
Sri Arunachala Ashtakam verse 6

Quote
You alone exist, O Heart, the radiance of Awareness. In You a power mysterious dwells, a power which without You is nothing. From it (this power of manifestation) there proceeds, along with a perceiver, a series of subtle shadowy thoughts which, lit by the reflected light of mind amid the whirl of prarabdha, appear within as a shadowy spectacle of the world and appear without as the world perceived by the five senses as a film is projected through a lens. Whether perceived or unperceived, these (thoughts) are nothing apart from you, O Hill of Grace.

Can we regard this verse.6 as explaining drsti-srsti vada?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:11:07 PM by shiba »

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2015, 12:34:16 PM »
 Extract from Commentary of Ulladu Narpadu verse.6 by Lakshmana Sarma

Quote
Thus it is clear that there is no sufficient evidence that the world exists outside of our mind. The truth about the world is this: It is the mind that constructs the world and then confounds itself in the belief that the world is real. By thoughts does the world arise in the mind, and by the erasure of those thoughts is the world destroyed. Thus the mind has the power of creation and destruction; but the mind is not aware of this power. It creates and destroys, but not consciously. And then it confounds itself.

That the mind itself can create and can also confound itself is clear from the phenomena of dreams and daydreams. This power also exhibits itself in well-concocted fictitious stories and plays. This coordinates well with the teachings of the jnAnis who say that this waking-state world is also a mental construct.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:12:00 PM by shiba »

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2015, 01:09:07 PM »
Extract from Commentary of Ulladu Narpadu verse.9 by Lakshmana Sarma

Quote
All the differences of the world that hide the Atman, the Existent Reality, have their seed in this Ego. If this is destroyed, everything vanishes and the Real Nature of the Atman shines. This is the content of this entire work.

Quote
Thus all the differences have their root-source in our Ego; in Self-Realisation the Ego has vanished; therefore the mental constructs of dualities and trinities all vanish. And the only thing that remains is the Atman. All this go to confirm that the world is unreal.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:12:38 PM by shiba »

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2015, 01:58:37 PM »
Extract from Commentary of Ulladu Narpadu verse.13 by Lakshmana Sarma

Quote
The purport of the statement that the world is Ignorance is to say that the world arose from Ignorance. And Ignorance is nothing but Ego. That is not something that is material; this is the truth that Bhagavan teaches as the fundamental truth in this work. Ignorance means the absence of Knowledge; and that again tells us that Ignorance is like Darkness. It is not a material substance. Darkness cannot be present in the presence of Light. So also Ignorance cannot persist in the face of the Light of the Self. How can such a destroyable Ignorance be the Existent Reality? This is what is meant by the words "poyyAm ajnAnamume".

Ignorance is not a material substance - this is the conclusion of Vedanta. If it were so, then the universe and the bondage that arise from it would have an element of truth in them. An immature disciple is told as if there were an Ignorance that caused the bondage. In reality there is no such thing - this is the bottom line teaching. Therefore the question: "Wherefrom did I get this Ignorance?" is an absurd question. The question presumes there is a relationship between the Existence-Knowledge Brahman and the transmigratory cycle of samsAra. There is no such relationship. The Vedanta teaching is: "asango-hyayam purushah", that is, the Atman that is Brahman is associationless and relationless. This is technically known as "ajAta-siddhAntaM". It means that from the Absolute point of view there is no universe arising from Ignorance, no JIva, no bondage, no seeker, no mokshha. What is Real is an ever-pure, ever-knowing, ever-free Atman only (*nityashuddha, nityabuddha, nitya-mukta AtmA*). This is the experientially-confirmed Truth of the JnAnis who live in that experience. Bhagavan says that Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, right in the beginning of the second chapter, declared this truth to Arjuna but the latter was struggling to absorb it and that is why Krishna gave him several other teachings.

Though the relationship does not exist in reality, for the purpose of teaching, an imagined relationship has to be talked about. But this does not in any way affect the Reality that exists.

This universe - that is, the individual, the Ishvara and the universe - which is an expansion of Ignorance, appears as if it is real. The reason for this is that their adhishhTAnam (substratum, base) is that Existent Reality namely, the Atman. They have been superposed on the sat-chit Nature (svarUpa) of the Atman. From this it is clear that the universe has no existential reality of its own. Such an existential reality is there for the Atman; for, it shines in purity without the appearance of the universe, in the turIya that is Knowledge-experience (jnAna-anubhava). Therefore it is said that the Atman is real and the universe is mithyA.

"The universe is mithyA" means the differences of names and forms superposed on the substratum of the Atman are mithyA. After throwing off the differences what remains as the adhishhTAnam (support) is the real truth of the universe ? this prompts us also to say that the universe is real. Thus the two statements ?the universe is mithyA? and ?the universe is real? are not contradictory. If one understands it this way without the contradiction, both the statements are true.

The analogy for this comes from the case of gold and golden ornaments. The golden ornaments are at all (three) times only gold; before they are made into ornaments, after they are made and are handled as ornaments, and when they are destroyed back into gold. In all three states of time the truth of the gold is unchanged. Further, gold is one whereas the ornaments are many. Therefore, as per the definitions indicated earlier, gold is more real than the ornaments; ornaments are unreal. In the two statements in the verse: namely, "aNigal tAm palavum poy" and "meyyAm ponnai anRi uNDO", notice that the two words "poy" (false) and "mey" (true) are used in juxtaposition. When you look at it as gold, the ornaments don't appear; therefore they are false. When you look at it as ornaments, their false names and forms hide the truth of the gold. The gold that is hidden is the truth. Worldly people say that both are the truth. If that were so, the analogy would not match the situation; so Bhagavan deliberately uses the two words here. The purport of this is: "The ornaments are many and (therefore) false, have as their adhishhTAnam the one, and (therefore) real, gold; so also, the knowledge, which is only Ignorance, that imparts an inherent nature of multiplicity, and (therefore) falsity, to the world, has as its adhishhTAnam the Atman, which is the One Reality-Consciousness and consequently appears as if it is real".

If Bhagavan had not added the words "poy" (false) and "mey" (true) here, a wrong interpretation may be attributed to Bhagavan that in addition to the ornaments being dense with gold, their differences of forms and names are absolutely true; and this may be followed up by the analogous inference that in the same manner in addition to the world being dense with Brahman their differences of names and forms are also true in the absolute sense.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 04:51:55 PM by shiba »

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2015, 07:25:53 PM »
Extract from Commentary of Ulladu Narpadu verse.18 by Lakshmana Sarma

Quote
When the jnAni says that the world is real, he actually means? Whatever that appears as the world is all nothing but the Existence-Knowledge substratum; it is not distinct from It. This is what the third line of the verse says. The words ?uruvaRRu Arum? mean the jnAni does not see the forms or the differences. When the forms are not seen, it also means the world is not seen. How can he say whether the unseen world is true or false? Therefore the words "The world is real" mean something different for the jnAni. The meaning is: "The base-substratum of the world is the Truth".

When the difference between a jnAni and ajnAni is so much, some people, who do not know and are unable to know this, try to measure the jnAni by their limited intellect and come to absurd conclusions. "The jnAni sees difference in non-difference, and non-difference in difference" is a description of this kind. In truth, the jnAni neither sees difference nor non-difference. Non-difference is not something that is observed. Then what does it mean to say that the jnAni has a sight of unity? Bhagavan says that the very fact he has no awareness of difference is mentioned as the sight of unity.

Quote
Further, by the logic that the substratum ("adhishhTAnaM") and the superpositions (AropitaM) hide each other, it is clear that they cannot be seen simultaneously - just as the rope and the snake cannot be seen together ever.

The ajnAni who has not known his Self sees the world; for him the Self is hidden. For the jnAni who has known his Self, obviously the Self shines for him, it actually means that the world-appearance is destroyed for him. Only the Self shines for him.

In the phenomenal world a Jivanmukta appears to see the world and act accordingly. This is only in the view of the rest of the world. For him they are not true. We shall enquire into this later. We shall say only this much here. In other's view he has a body and mind; however, there is no doubt that the kAraNa-sharIra which is Ignorance - Anandamaya-kosha - is not there for him.

Quote
Tirumoolar's Tirumandiram verse, "Marattai maRaittadu mAmada yAnai" quoted under the commentary on Verse #13, is of relevance here. The wooden elephant shines as a real elephant for a child. The child revels in the form of the elephant. The child will not agree that it is all wood; in fact it will resent the comment. In the same manner an ajnAni takes pleasure in seeing the forms of the world. If you tell him that all this is only the nameless formless brahman, he does not like it.

The five elements earth, water, fire, air and space hide the Absolute. In the state of jnAna the Absolute shines, all others vanish

Quote
Thus we have seen the meanings of the statements "The world is real" and "The world is unreal". Of these, the meaning of "The world is real" is not understood by the ajnAni. In the way in which the ajnAni understands the world as real, in that way it is not real; it is only unreal. The true meaning of "The world is real" cannot be easily understood by ajnAnis without the Grace of a JIvan-mukta Guru. Therefore, it is better to think of the world as unreal, turn the mind away from it and do one's sAdhanA.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 04:42:05 AM by shiba »

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2015, 03:40:57 PM »
There is no world in one's deep sleep state. The world entirely merges in the Self in deep sleep, and as soon as my mind( ego) reappear , my ego's body and the world come to be constructed like dream world. That is to say, creation process is the following - ego>ego's body>the world(including many egos and their bodies). This process may be done almost in a instant so we all don't notice the process.

The above is my understanding of drsti-srsti vada, instantaneous creation of Bhagavan Ramana which probably links with eka-jiva vada. How do members of this forum think about this :)? I myself still have some or many doubts about my understanding still :-[.

Hi Shiba

when the ego rises, not only the world arises, but also the Ishwara which is the cosmic consciousness. 
It is Ishwara who ordains everything in association with the power of illusion.  until power of illusion is destroyed,  ego undergoes a succession of dreams. 

the underlying substratum which is the Atma or Self is the Consciousness which lights the whole screen. and the character 'Ishwara' in this cinema is a mandatory character and he is always abiding in Self and knows the dream as a dream.

of-course when ego dissolves in the Heart, the Ishwara along with his maya and world subsides same time into the Heart.

shiba

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2016, 01:24:38 PM »
Hi ksksat27,

Yes, the Ishwara is there when the ego is (or seem to be).

The Ishwara seems to be omniscient and omnipotent, but He also seems to be creation of mind, which is in essence the I-thought.

That is to say, Can I say that He is creation of my mind? "Advaita Bodha deepika" seems to take such position.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2016, 05:36:22 PM »
Hi Shiba

Your points are valid and right.  drishti-shrishit vada is what our Bhagavan Ramana approved off and it is explained further by eka jiva vadha.

The main issue is,  nobody really goes to deep sleep state nowadays. What we call sleep is not really deep sleep or shushupti...our brains are working in some way

so first of all, we should thrive to experience deep sleep by hard physical work or long walking.  or after a giri valam at arunachala that night we will probably experience deep sleep due to the long hours of walk.

what happens is, in deep sleep there is no world, there is void. and when the I thought arises again, it is raising in a process called spontaneous creation. that means, this ego I, this world and that Ishwara all three arises simultaneously in the screen of Self.  there is not even a micro second time lag.  so one cannot do whatever he likes, because with the 'I' thought arising, the karmic law gets activated under the presence of Ishwara.

in Sanskrit there is a world Dosham.  it means some sort of pollution has occurred.  so with the raising of I thought, the dosham of good and evil, punya and papa arises simultaneously. 

regarding the other ego bodies,  once Annamalai Swami told that these are dream ego bodies.  if you help them, u will acquire dream punya and enjoyment, if you harm them you will acquire dream papa and dream suffering.

so having learnt the philosophy, one should strive to trace this I thought in waking state itself. when one achieves this, it is the Turiya state which can only be experienced and not explained.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
    • View Profile
Re: The world and Deep sleep (sushpti)
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 05:43:51 PM »
Hi ksksat27,

Yes, the Ishwara is there when the ego is (or seem to be).

The Ishwara seems to be omniscient and omnipotent, but He also seems to be creation of mind, which is in essence the I-thought.

That is to say, Can I say that He is creation of my mind? "Advaita Bodha deepika" seems to take such position.

Shibha,  the beauty is without even reading my earlier answers, I gave a fresh explanation in the above reply .  but it tallies for the most part. 

your sentence That is to say, Can I say that He is creation of my mind? "Advaita Bodha deepika" seems to take such position.
is a precious doubt which every advaitin should get.

this is the most precious question, the borderline between advaita and Buddhism.  Advaita Bodha Deepika is a bit complex and deep text.  so for now, put this aside.  consider your question deeply.

your question is, "is God creation of my mind?".  Yes and No.  Yes because only after this I thought arose, all this trouble started. 

No because, simultaneously with I thought the God notion also has arisen. you simply had no choice in that matter.

let us say , you went into back seat of a big Audi type car. you were hiding yourself in that car.  the driver of that car did not notice you and he started the car and drove some 100 miles.  Now you were travelling 100 miles quite unconsciously, quite effortlessly . the travel of 100 miles became indispensable the moment you boarded the car. because after you boarded the car, it is not a matter of choice.

same way, the moment you felt yourself as I, Ishwara came into the scene simultaneously. not even immediately, but simultaneously. there is no gap.  this is what is called simultaneous creation. so there is no choice here.

one could say, there was a choice during the moment you felt yourself as I.  Why should you feel yourself as "I"? what was the necessity to ascertain or feel yourself?  but that is a beginning less illusion or ignorance. it cannot be answered logically. how it started no one knows.