Author Topic: Have I found my Guru?  (Read 5869 times)

mcozire

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Have I found my Guru?
« on: June 28, 2015, 11:45:29 PM »
Hi everyone!

It's been a while since I posted here.

I have been following Mooji for over four years now by listening to him on Youtube, but I never considered that he may be my actually Guru, and all that, that implies.

I was kinda of shocked or something when this realisation dawned on me, that this man could be my Guru, like there was a shift in my understanding of my listening to him, and attempting to "get"/"see" what he was saying, as if like, woa, this isn't just listening to any aul someone talking about just another topic, that this is IT.

However, there is one problem in the chain, apparently his Master is Papaji, but Papaji has claimed that no one realised under his direction, especially not westerners.

David: ?Many people have heard you say, ?I have not given my final teachings to anyone?. What are these final teachings, and why are you not giving them out??

Papaji: ?Nobody is worthy to receive them. Because it has been my experience that everybody has proved to be arrogant and egotistic? I don?t think anyone is worthy to receive them.?

and also

Papaji: ?If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real teaching. Many people think that they have attained the final state of full and complete liberation. They have fooled themselves, and they have fooled many other people but they have not fooled me.

So how am I to understand this?

I read once somewhere, I can't remember who it was, said that the mark of a True Guru, is one who calms you, and nourishes you in this manner, one whom you feel peaceful after listening to. I have been listening to him for 4 years now, and I must say that this is totally what I get from him, I am very fond of him, and I believe that he knows what he is talking about, and is what he is talking about.

What do the lovely people here think? How does one know there Guru?

I know Hari here, has a webpage dedicated to  the Great Spiritual Teachers, and has posted a quote by Mooji, and a video of his sanga singing bhajans.

Mooji Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntSgWktJ2nE

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

God Bless.

Mark.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 11:51:43 PM by mcozire »

James

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 12:02:54 PM »
the Guru for you is the one you like the most...it is that simple

no matter if the Guru is formless or form, alive or not

Beloved Abstract

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 08:03:16 PM »
wondering if he is your guru is the mind avoiding commitment
if you desire a guru you have to be willing to surrender to him , otherwise its just the mind following a story
there is no way to know a guru before this surrender
instead of asking if someone is your guru , perhaps you could inquire of yourself ... do i really need a guru , or do i just want a guru because i'm following some story ?  who am i to want a guru ?   who am i ?
 :)
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

mcozire

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2015, 04:16:15 AM »
I thought most seekers require a Guru? From most of the stuff I have read, it seems like it is almost always required.

When the disciple is ready the teacher appears kinda thing?

When you Beloved Abstract ask me, do I think I need a Guru, in one sense I desperately do, because othewise i fear I will forever go round and round asking many questions. I feel if I could just give it all up, and focus on this one Teacher, I would.

 But the fear here is that, Papaji has said that he never gave his 'final teaching' to any one, and I would understand that as meaning no one awakened to the Truth with him?

If I spend 10 years surrendering to Guru that was no Guru at all, is this not a great blunder?

I feel odd even saying this about Mooji, because I feel he is true. But this is why I posted the quotes by Papaji. Why would he say such a thing, if one of his students had awoken to the Truth.

One thought I have had is that he has just sais these things, as a kind of 'jnani' game, that sages play?



James

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2015, 04:55:36 AM »
I wouldn't complicate things so much Mark,
if you like Mooji and find peace in his presence then that is enough

Ravi.N

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2015, 07:18:55 AM »
Mark,
Both James and Beloved abstract have said well.You seem to be uncomfortable with this:
Quote
there is one problem in the chain, apparently his Master is Papaji, but Papaji has claimed that no one realised under his direction, especially not westerners
.

Before sharing excerpts from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna on the nature of 'Guru',I am copying what I wrote in another blog:

Relationships are all product of the mind attaching itself to the object of adoration or admiration-be it that between parents and offspring, husband and wife, teacher and student, friend and friend. The very nature of these relationships is fragile-they wear off unless they are attended to and fostered and pampered over and over again.
What about Guru-Disciple relationship? Is it any different? Let us say that the disciple may like to attach himself to whoever-be it a Ramana or a Ramakrishna or a jagatguru or a 'Plain vanilla Guru'. Who is this Guru? If he is outside of oneself and we are trying to 'forge' or establish or cling to this 'Relationship' -then it may well be destined to break apart like any other relationship only. Like how Sri Ramana used to point out-What happens to this relationship when we are asleep?
The only way the relationship can be understood and appreciated is that it should be integral part of our true nature-our very Self. Sooner or later we need to turn to the 'isvaro gururatmeti'(God is the Guru and is our atman)-The Guru is our inner ruler and who manifests as the whole world(Jagatguru) in our dealings with the outer world of phenomena, and we come to  recognize that Ramana or Ramakrishna is not the 'Ramana' or 'Ramakrishna' of our fancy but as they truly are-that there is no 'one' guru but the 'Only' guru that is Satchidananda -and that is what we also are whether we know it or not.Guru's grace is already in action when we are prompted to set about realizing this.
Excerpts from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The need of a guru
BRAHMO: "Is spiritual knowledge impossible without a guru?"
MASTER: "Satchidananda alone is the Guru. If a man in the form of a guru awakens spiritual consciousness in you, then know for certain that it is God the Absolute who has assumed that human form for your sake. The guru is like a companion who leads you by the hand. After the realization of God, one loses the distinction between the guru and the disciple. 'That creates a very difficult situation; there the guru and the disciple do not see each other.' It was for this reason that Janaka said to Sukadeva, 'Give me first my teacher's fee if you want me to initiate you into the Knowledge of Brahman.' For the distinction between the teacher and the disciple ceases to exist after the disciple attains to Brahman. The relationship between them remains as long as the disciple does not see God."

Parable of the grass-eating tiger
Sri Ramakrishna:Before you came here, you didn't know who you were. Now you will know. It is God who, as the guru, makes one know.
Nangta told the story of the tigress and the herd of goats. Once a tigress attacked a herd of goats. A hunter saw her from a distance and killed her. The tigress was pregnant and gave birth to a cub as she expired. The cub began to grow in the company of the goats. At first it was nursed by the she-goats, and later on, as it grew bigger, it began to eat grass and bleat like the goats. Gradually the cub became a big tiger; but still it ate grass and bleated. When atached by other animals, it would run away, like the goats. One day a fierce looking tiger attacked the herd. It was amazed to see a tiger in the herd eating grass and running away with the goats at its approach. It left the goats and caught hold of the grass-eating tiger, which began to bleat and tried to run away. But the fierce tiger dragged it to the water and said: 'Now look at your face in the water. You see, you have the pot-face of a tiger; it is exactly like mine.' Next it pressed a piece of meat into its mouth. At first the grass-eating tiger refused to eat the meat. Then it got the taste of the meat and relished it. At last the fierce tiger said to the grass-eater: 'What a disgrace! You lived with goats and ate grass like them!' And the other was really ashamed of itself. "Eating grass is like enjoying 'woman and gold'. To bleat and run away like a goat is to behave like an ordinary man. Going away with the new tiger is like taking shelter with the guru, who awakens one's spiritual consciousness, and recognizing him alone as one's relative. To see one's face rightly is to know one's real Self."

The upshot of the whole teaching is that it is not at all necessary to forge and solemnize a guru-disciple relationship with any person,but what is important is to recognize the guru principle in operation -and this principle can operate even through a so called  'ordinary' person if the disciple is ready.
Sri Ramakrishna explains it through the story of Ekalavya as well as the story of Dattatreya,the avadhuta who had 24 gurus:
It is said in the Bhagavata that the Avadhuta chose a kite as one of his twenty-four gurus. The kite had a fish in its beak; so it was surrounded by a thousand crows. Whichever way it flew with the fish, the crows pursued it crying, 'Caw! Caw!' When all of a sudden the fish dropped from its beak, the crows flew after the fish, leaving the kite alone.The 'fish' is the object of enjoyment. The 'crows' are worries and anxiety. Worries and anxiety are inevitable with enjoyment. No sooner does one give up enjoyment than one finds peace."

Now one need not ask whether papaji said that the 'Kite' is realized or not!All that one needs to see is whether one has learnt the lesson-if one has done that and is grateful for that,one has found Guru in the object of one's gratitude.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 08:15:55 AM by Ravi.N »

atmavichar100

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 09:00:25 AM »
Quote
The upshot of the whole teaching is that it is not at all necessary to forge and solemnize a guru-disciple relationship with any person,but what is important is to recognize the guru principle in operation -and this principle can operate even through a so called  'ordinary' person if the disciple is ready.

That is the key i.e to recognize the Guru Principle in operation .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Beloved Abstract

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 01:14:02 AM »
in this moment , let love love you completely ... then see if you need a guru   :)
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

mcozire

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 09:27:41 PM »
Hmm, I'm even more confused now. Haha!

I thought a Guru, was someone has realised the Truth?

Can someone more explain, 'The Guru Principle'?

Many thanks.

God Bless,
Mark.

paul

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2015, 04:04:12 AM »
Hi Mark, there is a small book called, Gems From Bhagavan, by  A. Devaraja Mudaliar. In Chapter 7 Bhagavan talks about Grace and Guru. I have included it below and hope that it is helpful.

I have not said that a Guru is not necessary. But a Guru need not always be in human form. First a person thinks that he is inferior and that there is a superior, all knowing, all powerful God who controls his own and the world?s destiny and worships him or does bhakti. When he reaches a certain stage and becomes fit for enlightenment, the same God whom he was worshipping comes as Guru and leads him onward. That Guru comes only to tell him, ?That God is within yourself. Dive within and realize?. God, Guru and the Self are the same.
 
Realization is the result of the Master?s (Guru?s) grace, more than teachings, lectures, meditations, etc. They are only secondary aids, whereas the former is the primary and essential cause.

Guru?s grace is always there. You imagine it to be something somewhere high up in the sky, far away and which has to descend. It is really inside you in your Heart, and the moment, by any of the methods, you effect subsidence or merger of the mind into its source, the grace rushes forth, spouting as from a spring from within you.
 
Contact with jnanis is good. They will work through silence. A Guru is not the physical form. Hence His contact remains even after the physical form of the Guru vanishes.
 
After your bhakti to God has matured you, God comes in the shape of a Guru and from outside pushes your mind inside, while being inside as Self He draws you there from within.

Such a Guru is needed generally, though not for very rare and advanced souls. One can go to another Guru after one?s Guru passes away. But after all, Gurus are one, as none of them are the form. Mental contact is always the best. Satsangh means association with Sat or Reality. One who knows or has realized Sat is also regarded as Sat. Such association is absolutely necessary for all. Sankara has said, ?In all the three worlds there is no boat like satsangh to carry one safely across the ocean of births and deaths.? Guru not being physical, His contact will continue after His form vanishes. If one Jnani exists in the world, His influence will be felt by or benefit all people in the world, and not simply His immediate disciples. As described in Vedanta Chudamani, all the people in the world can be put under four categories: The Guru?s disciples, bhaktas, those who are indifferent to Him and those who are hostile to Him. All these will be benefited by the existence of the Jnani ? each in his own way and to various degrees. From the book, Divine Grace Through Total Self-Surrender by D.C. Desai, Bhagavan read out the following quotations by Paul Brunton for our benefit:

Divine Grace is a manifestation of the cosmic free will in operation. It can alter the course of events in a mysterious manner through its own unknown laws, which are superior to all natural laws, and can modify the latter by interaction. It is the most powerful force in the universe. It descends and acts only when it is invoked by total selfsurrender. It acts from within, because God resides in the Heart of all beings. Its whisper can be heard only in a mind purified by self-surrender and prayer. Rationalists laugh at it, and atheists scorn it, but it exists. It is a descent of God into the soul?s zone of awareness. It is a visitation of force unexpected and unpredictable. It is a voice spoken out of cosmic silence - It is ?Cosmic Will which can perform authentic miracles under its own laws?.

In truth, God and the Guru are not different. Just as the prey which has fallen into the jaws of a tiger has no escape, so those who have come within the ambit of the Guru?s gracious look will be saved by the Guru and will not get lost; yet, each one should by his own effort pursue the path shown by God or Guru and gain release.

Each seeker after God should be allowed to go his own way, the way for which he alone may be built (meant). It will not do to convert him to another path by violence. The Guru will go with the disciple in his own path and then gradually turn him onto the Supreme path at the ripe moment. Suppose a car is going at top speed. To stop it at once or to turn it at once would be attended with disastrous consequences.

Paul




Ravi.N

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2015, 08:47:33 AM »
Mark,
Good post by paul-yes,Guru and Grace are synonymous.
I recommend the wonderful chapter called 'Four-aids' from the synthesis of Yoga by Sri Aurobindo.Every line is to be read and reread and understood and assimilated-It answers all the doubts that one may possibly have.I have posted it in this Forum:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7216.msg32818#msg32818

Here is the opening passage:
Yoga-siddhi, the perfection that comes from the practice of Yoga, can be best attained by the combined working of four great instruments. There is, first, the knowledge of the truths, principles, powers and processes that govern the realisation -- sastra. Next comes a patient and persistent action on the lines laid down by the knowledge, the force of our personal effort -- utsaha. There intervenes, third, uplifting our knowledge and effort into the domain of spiritual experience, the direct suggestion, example and influence of the Teacher -- guru. Last comes the instrumentality of Time -- kala; for in all things there is a cycle of their action and a period of the divine movement.
Namaskar

mcozire

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2015, 06:50:18 PM »
Hi again.

Hi Paul, you have quoted Sri Ramana Maharshi as saying.

"When he reaches a certain stage and becomes fit for enlightenment, the same God whom he was worshipping comes as Guru and leads him onward."

My question is, how do I know that the Guru I am listening to now, essentially is legit? Is That? For fear of going down a long path with someone who is no different than myself. Something that has been coming up lately for me, and others in relation to Mooji, is that of the price to attend a Satsang in Sahaja Ashram. I am of the thought, that this is simply the way that the western mind feels most comfortable engaging in these things, and also the living cost and managing cost of the sanga.

Basically, I wish with all my heart, I could just surrender, because I a have so many questions, going around all the time. Like between Jesus being unique in his existence, and mission. And then between, wondering if Mooji is my guru, or if he is just a fake. :( Even though, I feel bad saying that he might be a fake.

Many thanks to you all.

God bless,
Mark.

paul

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2015, 03:12:57 AM »
Hi Mark,

My feeling on what you say about not knowing if Mooji is legit, is that if you are having doubts, then he is probably not the guru for you.

It is very difficult to give someone spiritual advice, I can only give a brief outline of my own spiritual experience. I had a guru for a number of years over 25 years ago and never had one doubt about him. He only ever had my spiritual interests and wellbeing at heart. He also introduced me to books on Ramana Maharshi, Shri Yogendra, the Shivapuri Baba and Ramakrishna. It took about another 15 years before I realised the importance of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi?s teachings, and some years later the importance of Arunachala. I also realised it would be very unlikely that I would find another living guru. One thing I have learned through experience over the last couple of years is that if you put your trust in Arunachala, then Arunachala will respond accordingly. I have asked Arunachala for help with my spiritual quest a number of times and have been in no doubt that I have received Arunachala?s grace.

If you have not done so already, have a look a photo's of Arunachala, listen to the hymns of Arunachala by Bhagavan, and also look at the translation of those hymns. I am only saying this because that was my path. It is the only advice I can give.

Paul


mcozire

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2015, 03:38:56 PM »
Thank you Paul for your kind advice. I think for westerners, especially for myself who was/is a raised Catholic, perhaps it is this conditioning that makes me 'doubt' Guru in general. I put quotation marks around doubt, because, when I say to myself that I doubt Mooji, something in me feels this is not true, that in fact I do trust him, just something is nagging (the mind?) at me saying, oh how can this man be your Guru, etc. But like I said this might be my Catholic upbringing coming into play also.

My Catholic up bringing would also have me saying, and feeling odd with praying to Arunachala, and asking Arunachala, as I see it first as a mountain, and then I hear God in the bible say, you shall have no other gods before me, and make no idols. Now, I am not saying the Truth is not as Arunachala, I am just showing the way my mind is thinking, a very western mind I guess.

My understating of God in the bible saying, 'no other gods before me' and 'no idols' simply meant God wanted us to focus on the uncreated/unmanifest, his invisible Spirit, or the 'I am'. Do you think this would be an OK interpretation?

I came across this quote from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj this morning, and it resonated well with me.

Q: Who are the people in this room? Are they your disciples?

M: Ask them. It is not on the verbal level that one becomes a disciple, but in the silent depths of
one?s being. You do not become a disciple by choice; it is more a matter of destiny than self-will. It
does not matter much who is the teacher -- they all wish you well. It is the disciple that matters -- his
honesty and earnestness. The right disciple will always find the right teacher.



In relation to Mooji, is a small bit of questioning and doubting, not a little part of enterning into a Guru / Disciple relationship?

Also, when I hear you speak of how your Guru helped you Paul, I feel myself, looking back over the last 3/4 years, that I have been listening to Mooji, (all through youtube mind you, I have never met him), I feel I could say many of the things you have said about your Guru, I feel I have benefited greatly from his talking, and his pointing always seem to be so direct, and I generally feel good, and peaceful, after listening to him, and as of recently, when I think of him, I feel happy.

Many thanks for you time.

God Bless.

paul

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Re: Have I found my Guru?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 07:56:30 PM »
Hi Mark, I think all of us here are trying to incorporate the teachings of Bhagavan and Arunachala into our spiritual journey to some degree. I don?t believe that any two spiritual journeys will be the same, but we all have to work things through, sometimes with a guru?s help.
 
Like you I am also a Catholic, but even as a child I attached no or very little importance to it. So I have no real learning or understanding from the Bible. I think your interpretation would be better than my own.

I wholeheartedly trust what Bhagavan has said about Arunachala and have experienced to a small degree Arunachala?s grace. I was originally drawn to this forum and the website that it belongs to because of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, and initially, I thought Arunachala was just a nicely shaped mountain. As the years passed, I read more about Arunachala and read the translations of Bhagavan?s hymns. Arunachala has now more prominence in my mind than Bhagavan.
 
I try to bring some practical aspect of what I have learned into my life. There is a hymn called Arunachala Mahatmyam, which is from Skanda Purana that was translated by Bhagavan. I have included a well known verse from it below:

What cannot be acquired without great pains ? the true import of Vedanta (Self-Realization) ? can be attained by anyone who looks at this hill from where it is visible or even mentally thinks of it from afar. ?

It is very important to me. I have photographs of Arunachala around the home and on my computer desktop. It helps me to bring images of Arunachala to mind. That is my way of working things through. You will have a different way. Remember though, there is great guidance and information on Bhagavan and Arunachala on this arunachala-ramana.org website. As well as bringing the teachings of Mooji into your life consider also Bhagavan and Arunachala.

I wish you well.

Paul.