Author Topic: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.  (Read 4049 times)

mcozire

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So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« on: July 20, 2014, 01:28:28 AM »
Hi everyone!

Today I attended a peace protest against the violence that is currently happening between Israel and Palestine.

Then I got to really start thinking.

Some people believe that Old Testament contains many prophecies that God is returning his people to the land of Israel, and there are quite a surprising amount of verses that seem to match up to past events, and current events within the holy text.

In fact one could argue that it is a book entirely about the Israeli people, their past and their future.

"Ezekiel 34:13 - And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country."

So I am just wondering, how can / could the one great spirit intelligence, inspire such an ancient book as such, and leave it so open to such an interpretation, which has allowed violence to occur in the middle east, and at the same time inspire holy texts such as the Bhagavad Gita?

I'm really perplexed by this.

I am in no way arguing against the greatness of truth, and this beautiful existence, and gods creation. I am just confused how such a text could be inspired, and lead to so much conflict, and violence.

One theory I have is that, the entire Old Testament is suppose to be interpreted 'internally' or 'esoterically', and some how human beings have / or did not understand this. But then again, it is written very much like a book of history, and prophesy of the natural world.

Ezekiel 38:22-23 - And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.


Or else another theory is that, this is a particular God.

A) The One True God

or

B) Another God below the main true god.


Also, I find it hard to read the Old Testament at times, because there is a lot of very harsh penalties for certain transgressions of the law in the book, many times it is death!
 
So I am confused, how can this be the same One God?


Edit: Also, how come we can't just pray and ask, what the truth is, and hear it loud and clear, so that we could all just rest easy, and get on together? :/
Many thanks,
God Bless,
Mark.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 01:32:23 AM by mcozire »

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2014, 07:24:07 AM »
Mark,

 Every religion has three aspects :

1.      Philosophy, without which the Intelligentsia will not be convinced;

2.      Mythology to teach basic truths to children and the uneducated, and;

3.      Rituals to keep common people on the track of virtue, with promises of incentives in Heaven for good folk and threats in Hell for wrong-doers.

In most religions and their Holy books,the three are intertwined and it becomes almost impossible to separate them.Also very little of the phlosophy(in a spirit of free thought and daring inquiry into the very Nature of Truth,in a spirit of discovery)is available in itself.

It is only in the sanatana Dharma(Please do not mistake that I am partisan here!I am just stating the facts that is now coming to be recognized) that these are available in the form of Srutis,smrutis and puranas-i.e in the Upanishads it is freedom of inquiry and discovery that dominates.The Itihasas(Ramayana & Mahabharata) and the innumerable puranas serve the purpose of recording past events of inspirational value and also presenting it in a way that is assimilable by the common masses.

This provides for a free development of each and everyone -in that they are not tied down by one syllabus(so to say),and according to their level of maturity,graduate higher and higher until they can stand by themselves without any need to refer any scripture or its authority.The Vedas themselves proclaim that for such a one the Veda becomes aveda,i.e irrelevant.

Now,coming back to the predictions that you have referred to-whatever happens in this world ,even if there is a book that predicts it perfectly by way of a prophesy-it is of little value to oneself.Does it lead one to Truth?No.At the most it may lead some believers into a further conviction in their belief that it has come from God and that all that it says is authentic,etc-and this entrenchment is of little importance and value unless it aids translating it into a Direct Realization of Truth and God.This rarely happens-mostly people(and this includes the clergy as well)become snug that they have a 'wonderful' book of God that has predicted all these events and that through sheer allegiance to it,one is saved!

Fact is that even if every single happening in this world is predicted,it does not help anyone!In the Vedas also,there are Sciences(instead of prophecies)that help predict events- what is called astrology.It is only used as a support and rarely relied upon.It is not of any lasting value.

With this preamble,I will refer you to this talk by Swami Vivekananda.You may read other talks in this series to get a good grasp of the Nature of things:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Jnana-Yoga/Maya_and_the_Evolution_of_the_Conception_of_God

Namaskar
 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 11:43:25 AM by Ravi.N »

mcozire

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 04:19:50 PM »
Thanks Ravi. N for your reply!

It makes sense to me it does. But I still wonder, why two books? Why so different from each other? Surely the universal consciousness was aware that at some point, all nations would be interacting, and communicating with each other, why would it create such confusion? Why would it give this knowledge to this people, in this form, with these prophecies, and then give a different book to these people, with different philosophies?

Many thanks,
Mark.

ksksat27

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 06:33:01 PM »
my humble suggestion is, instead of getting confused please dive deep into whatever principles attract you. vedic or vedantic.   listen to what it says and put that into practice.

Surrender to God and devotion is what ultimately saves us from all calamities for eternity.   Nothing works like surrender.  And the world will always be a mix of good and bad.  As Bhagavan Ramana told, it will be average level, it will never improve to full harmony nor it will go down to degraded levels.

Fresh air,  kindness, service, japa,  self enquiry,  regular bathing and waking up,  proper sleep,  silent contemplation ,  reading spiritual books are the general way for our welfare.  A book should be read only in the spirit of getting Truth & Clear Knowledge, not in the spirit to get confused.

Arunachalam

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 07:09:46 AM »
Mark,

Quote
Surely the universal consciousness was aware that at some point, all nations would be interacting, and communicating with each other, why would it create such confusion? Why would it give this knowledge to this people, in this form, with these prophecies, and then give a different book to these people, with different philosophies?


Wonderful question.One basic thing about the Vedas is that there has been a rigorous Oral tradition and also the varna ashrama Dharma(Division of labour )where in the Brahmins were entrusted with the sole charge of chanting the Vedas and preserving it for posterity.Much of it has been lost but a great deal is still preserved in its original form(If you read the posts on Vedas,this would be clear.How error correction is built in!).The Vedic religion was truly universal and not restricted to any geography.I will just post one excerpt from an incident that actually happened that would illustrate this-from the Reminiscences on the Shankaracharya of Kanchi by a devotee Gowrishankar,who is also a devotee of Sri Ramana maharshi and lives in TiruvannAmalai.

When I(Gowrishankar) went to the Mutt(Kanchi Shankaracharya mutt) to have His darshan for the first time there were four foreigners there, an Israeli, an Italian, a German and a Britisher. They had come to do their PhD in Philology on the topic of 'the most ancient languages in the Occidental and the Oriental world'. They were studying Latin, Hebrew and Greek languages in the Occidental part and Sanskrit and Tamil in the Oriental part.
 
He went inside to do His Anushtanas(observances); they had wanted to a photo of Him but his attendants disallowed and prevented them from taking photographs.They were crestfallen that they could not take a picture. All the four of them were standing near a tree since morning. They asked His attendants as to when He would be done with the poojas but did not get a convincing reply.
 
I told the foriegners that we Indians were used to the way of life at the Mutt, but how come they  have been standing for the past 6 hours! One of them looked at his watch and exclaimed, 'oh my God, has it been 6 hours! He is a Man of Certainty and is Beyond Time!'
 
Periyavaa(Great one-ravi)) came in after 10 minutes and we all went and prostrated to Him. Looking at the man (who had the camera hanging on his neck) who had wanted to take the photos, He gestures with His hands that he can take the pictures now. He posed for three photos and stops him before the fourth and enquires as to why they have come.
 
They tell him their purpose.

He asks, 'So, did you arrive at a conclusion as to which is the most ancient language?'
 
The Israeli replied, 'Hebrew is the most ancient in the Occident; but in the Oriental, people say that both Sanskrit and Tamil are the oldest, we are confused and that is why we are here for Your opinion'.

continued....
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:50:10 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 07:12:38 AM »
The Oldest Language in the world continued....

He said, 'There is another language which is the most ancient than all these, it is the Vedic Language. It is the Source of even Sanskrit and Hebrew.'
 
'There is a verse about Rebirth in Hebrew, can you recite it completely?'-he asked the Israeli, prompting the man with the first two words.
 
The Israeli recited it for 3 to 4 minutes. Swamigal looked around and asked some boys- 'have you studied Rig Veda, can you recite this particular verse?'
 

Those boys recited it for 5 minutes.
 
He asked me, 'can you ask them if they understood what these boys recited now?'
 
The four men remain quiet.
 
Swamigal turns to the boys and says smilingly, 'you all will definitely not understand what this man had recited in Hebrew!'
 
He turns to me and says, 'tell that Israeli that what he had chanted before is the same as what these boys chanted!'
 
I told him, 'Swamiji says that what is you had chanted is 'verbatically' same as the what the boys had chanted'.
 
Swamigal corrects me, 'What? Do not use the word 'verbatically', tell him that both the chants are 'alphabetically' the SAME!!!'

continued...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:25:12 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 07:17:35 AM »
The Oldest Language in the world continued....

He said He will prove it and asked if we have a paper and a pen.
 
'In Vedas it is mentioned that the world has been classified into 32 portions/regions. And in each of the 32 geographic regions, Vedas say how the Veda Aksharas have changed/pronounced in those places!'
 
He asks each of them which region they come from and then explains to them how a particular Veda Aksharam is changed in their individual places! He asks the boys to recite verse from Rig Veda again and tells the men how each Aksharam in Rig Veda in that verse will sound in their Regions!
 
The Sarveshwaran tells me, 'I will now say this verse with some difficulty as it has been a long time since I had Abhyasam, ask that Israeli if he understands my recital!'
 
To the boys He says, 'I will now say it in a slightly different form based on how each Aksharam will sound in Hebrew. Please do not think it is wrong; there is this injunction in the Vedas that it can be recited this way also.'
 
And The Sarveshwaran starts to say it, slowly. Wonder of Wonders, the Israeli starts to recite it Together with Him!!!

(Sarveshwaraa, I am unable to type now due to a flood of emotions?)
 
We were all Stunned!

'I told you earlier, the same verse in Rig Veda is present ditto in Hebrew, but the Aksharas have changed slightly. (like we say Yamuna but in the North it is Jamuna, Va in the south is Ba in West Bengal, Paa in Tamil is Haa in Kannada etc) Therefore, the most ancient language in the world is the Vedic language!'
 
Swamigal asked the four men to prepare a table and fill it with how the Rig Veda Aksharams sounded in their language. This was completed in 15 minutes.
 
The Israeli was shocked and exclaimed, 'this is something unimaginable!'
 
He asks him, 'what do you think now, do you now agree that everything has sprung from Vedas'?
 
The look on the Israeli was not convincing.
 
He says, 'what, is he thinking that why, could not have Vedas originated from Hebrew'?
 
The man says, 'yes, it could have been the reverse also, the Vedas could have come from Hebrew'.
 
Periyavaa replies, 'you have only the lock, whereas we have both the key and the lock! It is even mentioned in the Vedas as to which Maharishi from here in India went to your region and spread/taught Vedas in Israel!'
 
The man seemed to be convinced in the end.

Those interested may watch the video of Gowrishankar's reminiscences,where he narrates the above referred incident here(in Tamil):
http://mahaperiyavaa.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/thiruvannamalai-sri-gowrishankars-interview-must-watch/

continued....
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:20:47 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 07:43:17 AM »
Mark,

This sort of a oral tradition and the eco system to preserve it in pristine purity may not obtain in the other regions of the world.Even in India,it has eroded in the present times to such a degree that there is a definite danger that humanity at large would lose this treasure irretreivably.A similiar thing must have already happened in other parts of the world a long time ago and what remains must be just a meagre thing comparatively speaking.

Coming back to the key point that you have raised-Divine Inspiration belongs to the realm of the spirit and not to Geography and time.It is not something that was breathed out in the past and has ceased now.The breath of the spirit is ever upon the waters of our being(I am borrowing from Vedic symbolism here!)and only the expression of it has changed,to suit our present day psyche and language forms.

Hence we still call the words of the Great ones as mantra and these also add to and can be considered as the Vedas and upanishads of the present day.Only that we tend to go about it casually and not with the rigour of the oral tradition-now that the information can be stored,retreived and disseminated in a number of ways,we risk not paying maximum attention to the present day Vedas,if I may say so.
An anology comes to my mind-In our younger days we used to have film based cameras and taking photographs used to be a costly as well as time consuming affair.We took great care in taking the photograph as well as preserving it.Now with the switch over to Digital cameras,Taking snaps is easy and we keep snapping anything and everything and dump the images somewhere without even bothering to take a look!
This element of casualness and carelessness is detrimental to any Human endeavour and more so in the spiritual realm.

I have rambled a bit but I hope it just reveal a thing or two on the excellent oral tradition that had its big pluses.

Namaskar.

mcozire

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 05:23:40 PM »
Thanks Ravi. N and ksksat27 for your replies.

Thank you Ravi. N for such a wonderful event recalled! Many thanks, it is really amazing.

my humble suggestion is, instead of getting confused please dive deep into whatever principles attract you. vedic or vedantic.   listen to what it says and put that into practice.


You see I think this is my problem, both Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj 'I am That' book, and the 'New Testament' attract me, but the problem is I find contradictions in them.

This next question, at it's root is the same problem I am addressing in the original post. All though I'm coming at it from another angle.

That is, if the statement by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, 'I am that by which, I know, I am' is true, and the truth is this 'simple' why was it that Jesus Christ went on to be crucified, could he not just have expounded the same truth, without having himself killed?

As far as I know, the entire Old Testament is about God trying to get a bunch of people into tip tip spiritual form, to overcome the curse of adam and eve, and they completely failed at doing so, so instead he himself came through the power of the holy spirit, and his son Jesus Christ, taught us how it was done, and he lay down his life for the sins of the world, that he was the blameless one that took away our sins, and we must look towards him.

My simple question is, why would he have to do something as such, if the truth is a simple as remaining as the self, why the big event, why does almost half the world believe that Jesus Christ himself is the only way, how could that actually happen, be allowed to happen, the confusion of it all!

You know, I'm so tired! I feel like I've been on a merry go round for the last two years, I just want to know what the truth is for once and for all, whether it be Christ Jesus alone, or the instructions of Guru. I feel no rest.

You see the official story of the New Testament, is about Jesus dying for our sins, and through him is the only way, and the story of the Guru is just remain as you are, as the self. Both of these cannot be the truth it has to be one or the other, or else they somehow are the same. If this is the case, I would like to just see it clearly, how they are the same, rather than all these spiritual contradictions etc.

Forgive me for these questions, and thank you for your patience, it's just that day and night this is all im thinking about  :/

Many thanks,
Mark.

Nagaraj

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 09:39:27 PM »
Hi Mark,

I would just like to express a couple of thoughts, without going direct into your questions. I believe these thoughts could change some perspectives you are having.

What is 'Jesus Christ'? Was He the body that was crucified? Did He really die or was it his body that met its end? Does Jesus Christ ever die? Jesus Christ is the Para-Brahman, the Soul of the soul, the principle that is in everybody, like the thread that runs within the beeds. Jesus dying for our sins is verily a great sacrifice to show to us that we are not the bodies as we assume ourselves to be. That which remains inspite of death of body is the Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the 'Brahman' the deathless Atma.

One principle that is common to all religions is the principle of 'soul' or 'spirit' contemplate the nature of the soul of spirit and its relation with the body. Many things will fall in place. Here in India, as you may know well, body is like a shirt that one wears and discards it when its worn out. Body is verily such a shirt that covers the spirit.

All answers are within. Jesus is within shining as brightly as thousand suns!

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2014, 09:54:12 PM »
Mark,

If we carefully look without the noise of the mind, then we can find no difference between Jesus Christ and Nisargadatta Maharaj or for that matter, do the words of Great Yogis across religions ever contradict each other. We may see the Gospels, the Sufi songs, the Upanishads, and so on, say the one same thing in different manner.



The life of Jesus displays a silent yet supreme heroism in the face of the most determined opposition, persecution, and misunderstanding. And he has set an example how a true seeker repulses the temptations on the spiritual path. Long before the outward drama of crucifixion, Jesus had voluntarily crucified himself spiritually by annihilating the lower self and living a purely divine life. Jesus declares: "Ye cannot serve both God and Mammon". In other words, his teaching implies: Detach; attach. Detach yourself from the material objects of this transient world. Attach yourself to the eternal spiritual treasure of Atman. Christ thus teaches us the great way of going beyond all sin and sorrow.

Lord Christ was crucified. He accepted death with great joy in order that others might live. What a magnanimous soul! He had learnt to die cheerfully for His children. His last words are an example to the world. He said: "O Lord! Forgive those people who are torturing me and putting me to death, for they know not what they do". How noble! His hands were tied to the cross and nails were hammered into them. In this state he prayed for the people who were tormenting him. What a large and forgiving heart he had! Jesus was an embodiment of forgiveness or Kshama. That is the reason why he still lives in our hearts and why millions of people now worship him.

Jesus was God Himself. The Holy Scripture reminds us of this fact again and again. Yet, why did he have to endure so much of persecution and suffering ? Could he not have overwhelmed his foes by a mere exercise of his divine will ? Yes. But the supreme incarnation of love that Lord Jesus was, he had willed it that his own life would be an example for people to emulate. Therefore he behaved like any other human being; and while so doing, fully demonstrated in his own brief but eventful life the great Sermon that he gave on the Mount.

After Jesus was crucified, he was restored to life. The resurrection or the rising again from dead was, according to Jesus, and ineffable condition in which all bodily limitation was transcended. It was a condition of being perpetually in the presence of God. Jesus was a fully developed Yogi and sage. He had no identification with the physical body. He identified himself with the Supreme Soul. He said: "I and my Father are one".

Excerpts from Swami Sivananda's article on Jesus Christ.

Follow link for complete article - http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=8183.msg65351#msg65351

(http://www.dlshq.org/saints/jesus.htm)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 10:04:26 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Graham

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 06:12:32 AM »
Dear Mark,

Why do you torture yourself like this? I suspect that it is rooted in fear, that somehow by following Advaita that you are betraying Jesus.

The old testament is full of 'blood and thunder' as an old friend once said to me, the new testament is full of hope and light, but neither can lead you to the truth. They can perhaps help you to become a better person or an infinitely worse person, even positively demoniacal, depending upon your interpretation.

Advaita leads only inward and guides you to the ultimate truth which you have to Realize yourself. The gurus are there only to give you that inward push.

No doubt Jesus did the same with his close disciples, but such teaching has either been lost or suppressed, though the so-called Gnostic teachings of Jesus are pure advaita.

When you are able to accept the core of all religions 'that there is only One from which everything arose and into which everything will resolve' then your difficulty will evaporate.

It is the feeling of duality that causes the problem and all organised religions depend/survive on that principle of duality. Without it, the 'church (generic term)' will lose its relevance and disappear, so it is in their interest to promote guilt and fear in the religious in order to retain power over others, even to the extent of committing atrocities.

In reality there is nothing to stop you from continuing with your Christian faith and practicing self-enquiry at the same time. You are in fact far better off following that course, rather than torturing yourself over who is right or who is wrong - why do you even care?

Is there anything in the Bible or any other religious book that says 'do not practice self-enquiry', 'do not seek the Self'? Christ said 'seek and ye shall find' 'the light is so close you miss it' 'you are all Gods'.

How many clues do you need?  At the right time all of this will drop away.

Graham

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 08:11:16 AM »
Mark,
Very good posts from Nagaraj and Graham.Let me just take one example of how One simple fundamental Truth principle has come to be distorted.
I am posting an excerpt from Kanachi Shankaracharya (The same person who chanted with the Israeli in my ealier post)

You must be familiar with the story of Adam and Eve which belongs to the Hebrew tradition. It occurs in the Genesis of the Old Testament and speaks of the tree of knowledge and God's commandment that its fruit shall not be eaten. Adam at first did not eat it but Eve did. After that Adam too ate the forbidden fruit.
Here an Upanisadic concept has taken the form of a biblical story. But because of the change in the time and place the original idea has become distorted-or even obliterated.
The Upanisadic story speaks of two birds perched on the branch of a pippala tree. One eats the fruit of tree while the other merely watches it's companion without eating. The pippala tree stands for the body. The first bird represents a being that regards himself as the jivatman or individual self and the fruit it eats signifies sensual pleasure. In the same body (symbolized by the tree) the second bird is to be understood as the Paramatman. He is the support of all beings but he does not know sensual pleasure;Since he does not eat the fruit he naturally does not have the same experience as the jivatman (the first). The Upanishad speaks with poetic beauty of the two birds. He who eats the fruit is the individual self, jiva, and he who does not eat is the Supreme Reality, the one who knows himself to be the Atman.

It is this jiva that has come to be called Eve in the Hebrew religious tradition. "Ji" changes to "i" according to a rule of grammar and "ja" to "ya". We have the example of "Yamuna" becoming "Jamuna" or of "Yogindra" being changed to "Joginder ". (We may see how Yugoslavia is also called Jugoslavija-Ravi)In the biblical story "jiva" is "Eve" and "Atma" (or "Atman") is "Adam". "Pippala" has in the same way changed to "apple". The Tree of Knowledge is our "bodhi-vrksa". "Bodha" means "knowledge". It is well known that the Budhha attained enlightenment under the bodhi tree. But the pipal (pippala) was known as the bodhi tree even before his time.


The word 'Jesus' has also comes from the Sanskrit root-'Esa'-this has become 'Yesu' and has become 'JEsu'(we may recall Johann(Yohaan!) Sebastian Bach's composition-'JEsu the Joy of Man's Desire')'Isa' as in Isavasya upanishad is also called 'iswara' or 'The Lord' We will see the teachings of Jesus ,The Christ and how they are the same as what other Great ones have taught.Truth has to be the same;Beliefs may be many.We are concerned with Truth and not beliefs.

I will next post Notes from a Class that Swami Vivekananda took on The Mundaka Upanishad where the Parable of the two birds on the Pippala tree figures.
We will see that Nisargadatta's Teachings are also the same.Doubt is cleared not by persuasion but by understanding.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:47:01 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 08:33:36 AM »
Mark,
An excerpt from a class room talk of Swami Vivekananda,where he explains the significance of the parable of  two birds perched on the branch of the tree as it occurs in the Mundakopanishad :

The Mundaka Upanishad leads you on, beyond the senses -infinitely more sublime than the suns and stars. First Angiras tried to describe God by sense sublimities -that His feet are the earth, His head the heavens. But that did not express what he wanted to say. It was in a sense sublime. He first gave that idea to the student and then slowly took him beyond, until he gave him the highest idea ' the negative ' ,too high to describe.

"He is immortal, He is before us, He is behind us, He is on the right side, He is on the left, He is above, He is beneath.

Upon the same tree there are two birds with most beautiful wings, and the two birds always go together ? always live together. Of these, one is eating the fruits of the tree; the other, without eating, is looking on."

So in this body are the two birds always going together. Both have the same form and beautiful wings. One is the human soul, eating the fruits; the other is God Himself, of the same nature. He is also in this body, the Soul of our soul. He eats neither good nor evil fruits, but stands and looks on.

But the lower bird knows that he is weak and small and humble, and tells all sorts of lies. He says he is a woman, or he is a man or a boy. He says he will do good or do bad; he will go to heaven and will do a hundred sorts of things. In delirium he talks and works, and the central idea of his delirium is that he is weak.

Thus he gets all the misery because he thinks he is nobody. He is a created little being. He is a slave to somebody; he is governed by some god or gods, and so is unhappy.

But when he becomes joined with God, when he becomes a Yogi, he sees that the other bird, the Lord, is his own glory. "Why, it was my own glory whom I called God, and this little "I", this misery, was all hallucination; it never existed. I was never a woman, never a man, never any one of these things." Then he gives up all his sorrow.(This is what Nisargadatta taught-Ravi)

When this Golden One, who is to be seen, is seen ' the Creator, the Lord, the Purusha, the God of this universe'- then the sage has washed off all stains of good and bad deeds. (Good deeds are as much stains as bad deeds.) Then he attains to total sameness with the Pure One.
The sage knows that He who is the Soul of all souls ' this Atman' shines through all.

He is the man, the woman, the cow, the dog - in all animals, in the sin and in the sinner. He is the Sannyasin, He is in the ruler, He is everywhere.

Knowing this the sage speaks not. (He gives up criticizing anyone, scolding anyone, thinking evil of anyone.) His desires have gone into the Atman. This is the sign of the greatest knowers of Brahman - that they see nothing else but Him.

You may read this wonderful talk here:
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_9/lectures_and_discourses/the_mundaka_upanishad.htm
What Nisargadatta or any other sage has taught is nothing but the upanishadic Truth only.Jesus also taught the same but he had to tone it according to the maturity level of his listeners.
Namaskar.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:21:20 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: So confused, Old Testament, Israel, and the Vedas.
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 09:06:42 AM »
Mark,

Quote
You see the official story of the New Testament, is about Jesus dying for our sins, and through him is the only way, and the story of the Guru is just remain as you are, as the self. Both of these cannot be the truth it has to be one or the other, or else they somehow are the same. If this is the case, I would like to just see it clearly, how they are the same, rather than all these spiritual contradictions etc.

what does 'Dying' mean?What is sin?These are much talked about without going to the essence.This is the root cause of Problems.It breeds beliefs and even if the whole world's population carries itself in one 'single Belief' it does not make it true.The whole world believed that Sun goes round the Earth but it was copernicus who clearly said that it is the earth that goes round the sun and that is the Truth.Likewise if even half the world believes in Popular christianity(or its official version)it does not mean anything.As Earnest aspirants,we are concerned with Truth and not beliefs ,however comfortable that belief may be.

To understand the teachings of Jesus the Christ,we have to see what other great ones have also said,what the upanishads have said-What Jesus taught is pure upanishadic Truth only.

What is Death?-We see Jesus saying "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God" and He says "The Kingdom of God is within you"

As long one lives the life of the senses it is tantamount to death;It is only when one turns within and understands that the Truth of One's Being is in God ,the 'IAm WHO I AM'(What God said to Moses in The Exodus),that one is said to be truly Living and this is 'everlasting Life'(Sat-Chit- Ananda of the upanishads).

The Only 'Sin' or the Original 'sin' is nothing but this wrong identification with the Body and mind-'I am The Body -mind Complex'.To give up this notion is salvation.This is what Nisargadatta taught and also all the Great ones.

To say that Jesus gave up his Blood to save Humanity is a Belief and an earnest aspirant will have nothing to do with that.If it helps someone by way of encouraging him to Study and understand the sayings of Christ,it has served its purpose.Other than that it serves no useful purpose and only has become a handy tool in the machinery of the Church to spread its dominance over the weak and Gullible-the emotionally drained out people who are looking for a 'Fast Food' or 'Quick fix' to all the problems that life poses them.
This sort of a belief always has a following as there are always people who do not want to 'miss the bus' and would like to get onto the Bandwagon that promises of a cozy Life in an 'After world' or 'Heaven' -an easy way out of the problems that beset one in this world.
An Earnest aspirant would dare to  visit Hell if need be-Just look at the spirit of Nachiketas when he went ahead to face 'Yama ,The God of Death' in the Kathopanishad.What a tremendous spirit!What daring!

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:47:32 AM by Ravi.N »