Author Topic: performing rituals to the departed  (Read 16612 times)

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2014, 06:55:40 PM »
ksksat(krishna),
The Karmic law is accepted by Hindus and Buddhists,irrespective of whether one believes in isvara or not.The principle involved in dissolving the karma is the same-There are are only 4 basic ways:
1.Expiation through suffering
2.Mitigation through meritorious deeds , earning the blessings of other souls.(Whether it is through feeding Brahmins in a shraadha ceremony or feeding poor people in a plain way.Principle is the same-To earn the Blessings and goodwill)
3.Sharing it with kith and kin and this extends in a diluted way to others.
4.Giving up the sense of 'Ego' or doership.
The last one is the sureshot way.

As I have already posted earlier,at the time of death,a big chunk of the karmic imprint has to be absorbed by one's kith and kin and this paves the way for the onward journey of the departed soul.It is important for the kith and kin to observe special discipline during this stage(Vedic or otherwise).These absorbed imprints will have to be then expended by the kith and kin through one of the above 4 ways.This is the final chance for the karmic imprints to be worked out-as such a working out is only possible on this Terrestrial plane(and not in the other planes)

Do not think that all that TGN has said is to be confined in that one book that I am not sure whether you have read once completely.That contains some excerpts from some of his talks.That is all.

The above are the general guidelines and the chain of karma is quite complex.This is sufficient for our practical needs.Hence the need for dharmic living, what is called Ara vAzhkai in Tamizh.Ara VAzhkai(Dharmic Living)+Mei Porul nAttam(Devotion to Truth)=Spiritual Living.This will empower us to pass on Assets instead of liabilities to our children and grand children.

What happens to the soul after it departs,whether iswara takes care of it,etc,etc are mere speculations with which we need not concern ourselves and this is the reason that no Master would talk about it even if he or she has the knowledge.

Namaskar.
 

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2014, 11:34:47 AM »
"As I have already posted earlier,at the time of death,a big chunk of the karmic imprint has to be absorbed by one's kith and kin and this paves the way for the onward journey of the departed soul.It is important for the kith and kin to observe special discipline during this stage(Vedic or otherwise).These absorbed imprints will have to be then expended by the kith and kin through one of the above 4 ways.This is the final chance for the karmic imprints to be worked out-as such a working out is only possible on this Terrestrial plane(and not in the other planes)"

Dear Ravi sir,

there are two important points where I vary definitely.

one is your above quote. I dont agree that Kith and Kin can absorb the imprints (by seeing the face etc. as Sri TGN has metioned in that book) and it is counter productive to have that tendency to absorb the imprints of the departed however close they are.

Our vedantic system as expounded by Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi cleary states that the jiva carries its karma to subsequent births and it can work it out in next lives.  There is no need for inherited children to go through the karma. if that is the case, it will lead to huge confusion.  I will come with a bag of karma to be in a lineage of family for a short span.  and then I will leave the body to take another janma.  now per your theory this span of 90 years maximum will leave permanent imprints on the descendants which they have to work out? and then what myself as a jiva will do? i will also work out my karma?  it cannot be the case. however close one may be,  one can utmost help the departed soul in reducing some effects of karma by intense pooja to Ishwara and intense meditation and devotion to one's own Guru. this I agree, will definitely save that jiva from hell.    But this business of absorbig imprints and working it out is not quite right.   all jivas have their own sheath of Kadaakaasham.  except very qualified yogi or a jnani,  no one can absorb other's imprints and work it out. infact it is dangerous to attempt it.

my second point of difference is the importance of vedic shraddha ceremonies.

simply because someone goes to orphanage and distribute food to poor, it wil not replace the vedic based shraddha ceremony.  Only a post box can accept posts and deliver elsewhere.  not the small box that hangs at every door of the houses can carry letter and deliver.  I need not tell you,  you are admirer of Maha Periayava.  so feeding poor or any other remembrance activity can NEVER replace vedic ceremonies.  only after proper vedic ceremonies to appease pithur devatas,  one should go may be in the evening or next day to orphanage and do social service.

the belief in these entities is also held by buddhishts -- the terminologies vary.

whether one is a Hindu or Buddhist my point is to better stick to the rituals the particular religion prescribes and not replace it by this feeding poor stuff.  feedig poor is very good but it is only additional enhancer or catalyst. 

I could observe very subtly the belief in Ishwara with form is reducing bit by bit by many people who take to this advaita.  it is the greatest blunder. 

Sri TGN's talks I have observed lot of talks they all do not acknowledge the important Gods like Shiva, Vishnu .  May be I am wrong but my intution feels a aroma of formless , service oriented buddhistic approach in his talks that tend to deny or limit the existence of Ishwara with a name and form to one's mind (the pradhaana murthis like Shiva, Ganesh, Vishnu , Subramanya)




Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2014, 02:23:13 PM »
ksksat(krishna)
You seem to carry strong beliefs/opinions and I have nothing to contest.TGN does not ask anyone to gulp what he has said but to put into practise,observe ,validate and then accept what one finds as true.He leaves it at that.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2014, 03:14:18 PM »
ksksat(krishna),
Let us see how kith and kin share the karma.Let me illustrate this through an extreme example.Let us say that a mentally challenged child is born to parents.If it is only the karma of the child that he is born  mentally challenged,does it leave the parents immune or insulated from the consequences?Are they not affected by this ,even more so than the child?In this way,the load of karma is shared by the entire family.
What happens to any member of the family affects others as well.There is no such a entity as 'individual' who is isolated from the rest of the jivas.What happens to one affects others in general and the stronger the psychic bond,the greater is the intensity of the effect.

The strongest of the psychic bond is that between the guru and the disciple-and it is a fact that the karmic burden of the disciple is transferred to the Guru.It does not mean that by this sort of a transfer,the entire karmic load is lifted from the individual.He still has to workout the rest of the karmic imprints.

This is how Nature has ordained the working out of the Karmic imprints.

Hope this clarifies how karmic imprints are in fact transferred in a chain like fashion-down the generations.

Namaskar.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2014, 07:01:44 PM »
ksksat(krishna)
You seem to carry strong beliefs/opinions and I have nothing to contest.TGN does not ask anyone to gulp what he has said but to put into practise,observe ,validate and then accept what one finds as true.He leaves it at that.
Namaskar.

Dear Ravi sir,

Sri TGN's practical methods consists of good thoughts, social service, desirlessness etc.   If this is applied I agree it will improve the happiness in the family and overall karmic burden will be reduced.  But there are some important aspects where Sri TGN's perception cannot be accepted.   He is giving too much importance to gene based karmic imprints.   And his suggestions during the time of last rites to absorb karmic imprints, pranic energy etc.  is not at all advisable.   It is better to always remember Shiva or Vishnu or one's Guru than to try these things. 

Second point:  Sri TGN should consider and encourage people to abide by their religious rituals and use Orphan serving only as a additoinal measure. This I am sure you know how Periayava emphasized in Deivathin Kural.    Even if one is not able to perform vedic rituals only Guru mantra or deep devotion to Shiva/Vishnu can possibly serve as a substitute. But Sri TGN does not consider these aspects.  Infact in one question  he suggested to replace vedic shraddha ceremony and put Orphan food serving instead. 

Ofcourse,  I dont know Sri TGN's background but His Holiness is definitely not into buying the reality of saguna upasana.  It is a different topic.    I need to learn more about his teachings to elaborate but there were enough indications in his reference to Lord Rama's ignorance in Yoga Vasishta's lecture that suggest this tone. We will take it up separately later if feasible and comfortable.

Coming to your example,  the mentally ill child certainly carried his own karma.  and it was also the individual karma of the parents to bear and grow such a son facing embarrasment, expdentiure, worry and mockery in society.  So suitable child meets suitable parent and they are brought together circumstantially considering their own background karma only.  And as Upadesa Undiyar states,  Karma by itself is jadam, only Ishwara is the agency power who arranges such a circumstance Karmam Kadavulo undhi para karmam jada madhaal undhi para.

So only Ishwara can bear and reduce other's karmic imprints, not sons and daughters.  Atleast not directly.  At the most they can pray and do shrardha sincerely.



"What happens to any member of the family affects others as well.There is no such a entity as 'individual' who is isolated from the rest of the jivas.What happens to one affects others in general and the stronger the psychic bond,the greater is the intensity of the effect."

This is the effect of maya.  Even though it looks like close bondage ,  even though we call blood relation, it is only at the body level.  genes level.   beyond that one simply undergoes that portion of his karma as ordained as prarabhda. Quite individually.  One who has to suffer the death of son as Puthra Soham will be given a son who is destined to die young. Both meet each other but ultimately it is ony the individual prarabhdha that works out.   Ofcourse exceptionally if the father happens to be a staunch God believer or Guru believer,  he may be able to avert this son's premature death.  But that is something where Grace started operating.  And it ofcourse nullifies the son's karma to bless his pious father.  We have heard such cases , they are exceptions .  even then it is by the strenght of their own practice, this pious father was able to avert that danger.   There is really no bondage whatsover.

the minute the karmic debt is over,  we are split forcibly and made to enter aother  womb.  with that all relationship is over.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2014, 09:22:54 PM »
ksksat(Krsihna),
You do not seem to have any doubt,so there is no need for me to proceed further.Please proceed as you deem best.
Namaskar.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2014, 12:47:35 PM »
Dear Ravi sir,

Generally I will be surrounded by confusions but atleast in this case there is no doubt.

My point is:  actually no need to tell you.  these imprints, inheritance, transfer during funeral,  and many other things which Sri TGN mentions was not propounded by any famous advaita masters I know.  All I am saying is theory of karma is already well established and agreed by major schools of vedata in a same line.  Now why to introduce a new concept? 

And with your vast learning and meeting great saints like Paramacharya and Annamalai Swami, it would have  bene great if you would have got their opinion on these matters. That would infact add to as a strong authority in the absence of direct authority and widely held belief.  That is why Sri Nagaraj got a doubt .

Ravi sir --  i dont know if i am expressing myself, my concern is people are already shaky and fragile in sadhana atleast many are in that level.  It is not advisable to add new new things and confuse them.

And why to buy a belief like this in the first place?  And you have not answered about Sri TGN's approach towards vedic ceremonies.   If his holiness is a buddhist master or of any other faith i wont even ask,  as I think he is  a vedantin,  I expect elders like him to promote vedic based rituals and not deviate from that.  Got my point? 

With intellect we can easily prove and convince vulnerable people like me but what is the use?  the best approach is to mind one's own spiritual growth and live like lotus in pond in family life.

this stuff of interchanging imprints and other service based punyas without the due importance to vedic rituals are entierly new domain.  that is all i wanted to emphasize.

From your capacity you have reference to ther spiritual materials and so you will ultimately follow both Sri TGN's advise and other regular rituals but novice people may get misguided.


Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2014, 02:53:39 PM »
ksksat(krishna),
I will convey your words of wisdom and advise to TGN.
Namaskar.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2014, 03:52:47 PM »
No  :)  :).

how can I have words of wisdom and then you go all the way to His place and convey my advise?? :) :)

You have used a brahmasthraa.

Just ponder it over neutrally Sri Ravi.  Whatever touches the innermost  recess of your heart take it,  be it mine or others view points.

Ultimately that is how I make a final judgement on any thing.  We all have the Supreme Self as Antharyami,  if we tune to it,  intuitionally we will get a feel of what is truth, to which degree etc.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47597
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2014, 05:52:48 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The Indian Law says that when one's father leaves debts, and dies it is compulsory on the part of the son to pay off the 
debts.  He cannot avoid responsibility saying that the debts are father's and he has not duty to pay.  So also in these
cases of rituals of the departed.  Only Sannayasis (the real ones like Sri Bhagavan) can be exempted from the rituals of
these types.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2014, 06:49:05 PM »
ksksat(krishna),
Okay,I am not conveying it to TGN.

Quote
Just ponder it over neutrally Sri Ravi.  Whatever touches the innermost  recess of your heart take it,  be it mine or others view points

Thanks very much.I take your advice.

Namaskar.


atmavichar100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2316
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2014, 08:39:26 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The Indian Law says that when one's father leaves debts, and dies it is compulsory on the part of the son to pay off the 
debts.  He cannot avoid responsibility saying that the debts are father's and he has not duty to pay. 
So also in these
cases of rituals of the departed.  Only Sannayasis (the real ones like Sri Bhagavan) can be exempted from the rituals of
these types.

Arunachala Siva.

In a lighter note to what you said ,I have to share this following joke and I do not know how many of you have heard of this before .
A  Young many visits his native place after many years ( he had last visited when he was a baby ) and becomes very tired and hungry due to travel to that remote village which is his native place and is searching for a restaurant  and after walking for a couple of miles  he sees at a distance a restaurant and is very happy with that .On going nearer he is still more happy that in front of the restaurant there is a board on which the following is written " You can eat here how much ever you want and you need not pay a single rupee and it is enough if your grandson pays for this in his next visit " . This man himself is young and he thinks it will take at least 50 more years for his grandson to be old enough to visit here and pay the bill and so he eats there to his hearts content . On leaving the restaurant the owner presents him a bill of Rs.1,000 /- . This young man gets angry saying how can he show the bill when it is clearly written that it is enough if one's grandson pays for the same and not only that he did not eat for Rs.1,000 and ate for far less that amount and for which the owner of the restaurant said "Sir , this is not  your bill , this is the bill of your grandfather and it is time you cleared the same " .  :)

So moral of this funny story is "We cant escape the Karmas ( Positive / Negative )  of our parents and grandparents "
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2014, 08:47:46 AM »
atmavichar(Krishna),
Quite an amusing story.
Namaskar

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2014, 07:18:28 PM »
Dear sirs,

you are all not getting my point I think.

In the first place, what I am saying is,  shraddha rituals has to be done otherwise it will accrue to our bad karma..  Almost all are not exempt except sanyasis and adhyashramis like Bhagavan.  I dont deny this.

But what I dont agree is this business of imprints transfer from father to son etc.   There is some truth to it,  if you are born in orthodox family you are more or less likely to be more orthodox.  But it is just an arrangement of Maya for you to take birth in such a family.    It is not a chance .  The main factor that will always decide your pleasure or pain or your vasanas is your own bag of karma.  Nothing else.

Being born in suitable circumstances and inherting the characterisics of the father etc. is only the instrument to fullfil our destiny.

Let us not get confused --  let us assume this,  if grand father or great grand father of Mr. A was a villian and incurred a family curse ,  there is ideally no sin Mr. A need to suffer for that.  But what will happen is, a person who is already loaded with bad karma will take birth as Mr. A in that family and will suffer the curse. 

Actually it is only a reason , an instrument,  in the first place A's birth in that cursed family was decided not by genes but by karma of that individual A only.

Secondly peforming shraddha and other rituals is not to carry the karmic imprints and continue solving the generation's problems.    One does shraddha ceremonies for the good of the departed, for the good of the pithru devatas (pithru devatas are demi gods ,  they are agencies , they are themselves not our ancestors.   Pithru devatas exist common to all family ancestors.  they are like agni, vayu etc.  they are a galaxy of devatas.   )

No need to worry about inter-transfer of imprints etc.
All this one need not worry about, one just needs to follow his family tradition consult family priest and just carry on with the rituals.  For jnana and meditations our Bhagavan Ramana has given ample guidance and grace.

That is why I told, let us not add concept after concept.   



« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:27:48 PM by ksksat27 »

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2014, 07:23:47 PM »
ksksat(krishna),

Quote
Master TGN does not advocate vedic based rituals,  His holiness has a entirely different approach

Firstly TGN is an 'ordinary man'  and does not admit any 'His Holiness' tag.Secondly,he is not against any tradition,nor does he deny the efficacy of vedic rituals.Please do not comment on what you do not know.

Namaskar.