Author Topic: performing rituals to the departed  (Read 16615 times)

drsundaram

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performing rituals to the departed
« on: June 01, 2014, 08:11:16 AM »
 I request all readers to give a patient reading of this post [ sent to me by friend of mine] so that they I and he will comprehend the truth and correctly understand.I apologies if my statement might sound shocking and rude to most of the well read members of this beautiful forum 
                                                                   *************
        Vedas are considered to be the highest authorities of  INDIAN PHILOSOPHY. In all the four VEDAS consisting of 20000 +  mantras there is no mention of after death rituals.
       
       " ANTYESTI or the final disposal of the dead body is the last of the SHODASHA SAMSKARAS described in the Vedas. Burning, burying , throwing in water,  leaving the dead body in the ground or high altitudes to be eaten by eagles etc are the usual practices.
 Vedas are silent after Antyeshti. They do not speak of the 14 day rituals which are widely practiced among traditional Hindus especially devout Brahmins. Also no ref to the Vaikunta samaradhana done on the 14th day of death of a person. This ceremony claims to give sadgathi or moksha  or liberation from all sins done during his/ her  lifetime and directly send him/her to VAIKUNTA the abode of lord VISHNU.
                     Even the followers of other gods and goddesses other than LORD MAHAVISHNU like shiva , parvathi,ganesha  etc who never chant the name of Vishnu during lifetime also want to enter Vaikunta after death !! Is it possible ? Is it so easy?
                  I am not  discriminating between devotees of LORE SHIVA OR LORD VISHNU or  devotees of OTHER GODS .  I have utmost respect for all forms of god not only of Hindus but also of other religions. I am only questioning whether getting liberation or moksha is so easy for any one irrespective of his / her karmas or ACTIONS  performed  while alive.
             If by performing Vaikunta samaradhana ,anybody can get salvation  why spiritual sadhanas, mantra japa, pooja , religious practices, charities etc  are required ? soon after the death, the 14 day ceremony would suffice !
        Can any body who leads an  adharmic or unpious life while living get moksha after performance of these rituals ? If yes, will it not violate the basic TENETS  OF THE LAW OF karma ?
           ;   The VEDAS, DASOPANISHADS, BRAHMA SUTRAS  and BHAGAVAD GITA do not agree with or accept the above rituals as helpful for the departed soul. It is only in the PURANAS  you can find stories of  such rituals being performed and  departed souls liberated. Due to high level of interpolation the Puranas  are not considered as authorities on spiritual matters. I strongly feel and believe that these  meaningless rituals & means  nothing.  Did these rituals became a source of exploitation in the hands of some vested  whose words mattered much in religious matters from times immemorial .
           ;  The following Gita verses make my point more clear .  verse 13 of ch 4 says , according to the guna, karma and svabhava of a soul it gets re birth in chatur varnas (NOT CASTES ) . Krishna says further, the souls by virtue of their Actions done in the past  lives create eligibility for being classified into any one of the  4 varnas and that the lord does not randomly select anyone for any Varna.
            Verse 23 of ch 7  says lower form of rituals are only for the dull headed ? alpa medhasas.
        Verse 25 of ch 9 says those who worshiplower forms of  gods do not get into higher levels after death. But , those who worship me i.e the supreme Brahman only get liberated. Those who do after death rituals like SHRADDHA ,  PITRU TARPANA for the departed nearest and dearest souls  etc  reach only PITRULOKAS . No mention is made of the dead people for whom all these rituals are done. At the most,  this  can give psychological satisfaction to the performer of these rites and a sense of relief from guilt feelings if any . for not looking after the departed ones with love and affection while living. It may also be  because of the thankfulness for  the departed ones for leaving behind  them inherited properties.
  Verse 4 of ch 17  speaks of devotees of sattvik, rajasic and tamasic dispositions  who worship  gods ,demigods, spirits ,demons etc respectively get those destinations only and never get liberated.
             Having Vedas as the yardstick , should we not reject / discard all AVAIDIC  RITUALS  for our own good, failing which we are wrongly lead and  exploited? 
            Since the  effects of after death rituals are  are not to be confirmed by the departed souls   this may remain an unresolved question for ever. Only people with analytical skill and wide reading of scriptures can accept the truth of my words.
   Rituals , if , for the dead body is useless and  if for the soul , it  is meaningless because SOUL is immortal ! !

                           NAHI    JNANENA SADRUSHAM  PAVITRAMIHA VIDYATHE ?.Gita verse  38    ch  4""

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Ravi.N

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 10:37:44 AM »
drsundaram,

Quote
Vedas are considered to be the highest authorities of  INDIAN PHILOSOPHY. In all the four VEDAS consisting of 20000 +  mantras there is no mention of after death rituals

Here is the verse from taittriya upanishad:

SathyAnna pramadhitavyam ,dharmAnna pramadhitavyam,kuchalAnna pramadhitavyam,bhoothyaina pramadhitavyam,svAdhyAya pravachanabyAm na pramadhitavyam,deva pitr kAryAbhyAm na pramadhi tavyam

deva pitr kAryAbhyAm na pramadhi tavyam-Swerve not(na pramadhi) from duty to the Gods and manes.

So,I am afraid your friend is totally mistaken and his claim of 20000+  mantras not containing any references to pitr karma goes up in air.For the Upanishadic(jnAna kAnda)Teacher is cautioning and advising the student to swerve not from all these kAryAms.

Has your friend done veda AdhyAyana?This is one of the best ways to get acquainted with the Vedas.We may build on this chanting later on with further understanding that goes into  spirit of the mantras.

What happens after Death?This is a subject that only people with occult knowledge can deal with authoritatively.I have access to such a rare Master-TGN and he is emphatic that the kAryams need to be done.The Sage of Kanchi,I deem is the supreme Master in these matters.He emphasizes that this must be done.I will deal with this a little later.I have already touched upon this in my posting of the TiruppAvai-how imprints of karmas are transferred after death.
We will deal with the samskAras as kAnchi mahAswAmi has expounded it in his inimitable fashion.

Namaskar.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 10:45:25 AM by Ravi.N »

atmavichar100

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 01:33:23 PM »
Quote
So,I am afraid your friend is totally mistaken and his claim of 20000+  mantras not containing any references to pitr karma goes up in air

When it comes to Vedic Mantras we need to understand that the current available Mantras is only a part of what was originally available and many Vedic Branches have been lost .  Kanchi Mahaswamigal did extensive work to see to it that what is available does not shrink further due to lack of people taking interest in preserving Vedas . When he was talking of preserving Vedas he was not talking just of preserving it in CDs/Printed books etc but in real human form through teacher student relationship .So when we claim some thing is missing in Vedas we have to first understand that we are basing our views only with regard to the available Vedic Mantras and not the Original set of Vedic Mantras .

Coming to the topic of doing rituals and ceremonies for the dead there is one view that these are basically designed by the selfish Brahminical priestly class to further their own interest . No doubt there is a lot of commercial exploitation of these rituals / ceremonies by the Priestly class but there are lot of people who also do these things sincerely and I go with what Sri Kanchi Maha Swamigal has said about how to do these rituals and ceremonies .

« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 01:41:37 PM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 05:18:43 PM »
Atmavichar/friends,

Quote
Kanchi Mahaswamigal did extensive work to see to it that what is available does not shrink further due to lack of people taking interest in preserving Vedas . When he was talking of preserving Vedas he was not talking just of preserving it in CDs/Printed books etc but in real human form through teacher student relationship.

I will share this incident here!I trust our friend drsundaram will not mind my sharing this!
drsundaram was in chennai ,less than a year back.He was attending a wedding of his niece.We were to meet at a convenient time and venue.On the day of the wedding he landed in chennai and we had a telephonic conversation in the morning.I had told him that I would call him in the evening (during the wedding reception)and would fix up time so that we could meet.I did call him and clearly heard the ring tone on my mobile,and as the battery was getting discharged,I put it on charge and did not pursue the matter any further.

I again called him the next day and after talking to him ,went and met him at the MRC kayAna mantapam,where the wedding had taken place.He told me that he was awaiting my call the previous day evening and I responded saying that I had infact called and not receiving a response,took it that he was busy with the marriage reception;and that was how I called him the next day in the morning.He showed me that there were no 'missed call' from my mobile!I was surprised,and when i checked my 'outgoing call' list,there was no trace of me having dialled his mobile.I surely did dial him and heard the ring tone!

Anyway,it was all for good.That day,as I landed there,he warmly welcomed me and made me sit-There was a Vedic sadas organized to bless the newly wedded couple .There were representations from all the 4 Vedas-and it was wonderful to listen to their chanting.In this sadas,there were a couple of persons who chanted the Rig vEda(if I recall right)and they announced that they were specially deputed to learn it from a solitary exponent of that Branch of Veda in the North west by Kanchi mahAswAmi!They went there as children and now they are grown up and in turn are teaching other students.
I thought that the 'missed call' that did not take place was worth all this drama for it landed me at just the right time at the right place to hear that wonderful chanting.
thanks to our friend drsundaram who made it possible .

Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 06:51:11 PM »
Quote
In this sadas,there were a couple of persons who chanted the Rig vEda(if I recall right)and they announced that they were specially deputed to learn it from a solitary exponent of that Branch of Veda in the North west by Kanchi mahAswAmi

This is the real why many of the branches of Vedas were lost and how due to the timely arrival of Kanchi Mahaswamigal *on this earth some of the branches of Vedas  that were on the verge of dying were preserved and being now passed on to the next generation . No doubt today CDs , Pen Drives etc are available to store the Vedic Mantras . They can be useful for laypeople like us to listen but for Vedas to really be kept alive they need to have real humans taking interest in the same and follow the Guru Sishya Sampradaya to learn and pass it on to others . For those individuals who cannot be part of this direct Guru Sishya relationship best is to help support those who are doing this .

* : When I say that Sri Kanchi Mahaswaigal did lot of work in preserving the Vedic tradition ,I do not mean to say that no other Acharya / Individual /Institution did the same . Many people have contributed to the revival of Vedic Dharma in the last 100 years or so  in various ways  but since I am more aware of the role played by Sri Kanchi Acharya I am pointing this fact .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 06:53:48 PM »
Talking about 'rituals' I felt, the english word Ritual does not really carry the the true essence of the sanskrit equivalent, perhaps due to over analyses and reanalyses over the ages. However, regarding the subject of ritual, life itself is a ritual, daily acts that we engage in casually are themselves various acts of rituals, exchanges of pleasantries, showing respect to the boss at work, taking oath in the government and so on, are all extensions of rituals. In deeper sense, all these are not required, but life without rituals will be barren and just animal instinct would prevail.

Pitru karyams, as we know it here, is known as Thanks Giving in the western world, So these rituals exist all over the world in various forms.

Rig Veda Mantras contain such excellent mantras that provide all guidance one may need in life. I know of Rig Veda Pandits who told me of a Sukta that they chant when a daughter in law enters the house of her husband for the first time, it expressed the conduct the bride is supposed to have towards her husband, father in law, mother in law and the conduct expected by the father in law, mother in law towards their daughter in law and so on. IN this way, the daughter in law is welcomed to her new home with promises and assurances and blessings.

The way we interpret the word 'Ritual' is very primitive, unfortunately it is unable to carry the weight of the essence of Vedic mantras.

The people of the yore lived very very closely with the nature, every so called rituals are perfect and the modern scientific bent of rationale can never seek to understand it. As the saying goes, where science ends, spirituality begins! Panchayatana Puja is one such excellent example, five naturally shappened stones are got from 5 different rivers which signify the 5 elements of nature, and the way of life of rituals is closely living with the nature. One has to imbibe the real spirit behind every act, without shradha or faith, everything will look barren and dry.

Talking about Animal sacrifices, it is a recorded state that eminent Advaita saint, Appaiah Dheekshitar has performed animal sacrifices as directed by the scriptures. IN the end. And again, we should never make a mistake of comparing the Karma Kanda with Jnana Kanda of the Vedas! To compare between the two is a folly.

I heard from some recently about some scientific reports coming after studies that the vedic homams that is performed to propitiate the Gods for rainfall with various ingredients that are added in the fire, goes up in the atmosphere in the form of smoke and they cause to bring about changes in the sky at various levels of atmosphere and is potent bring rainfall.

Even today, the famous Athirathra Maha yajna is being performed in kerala since thousands of years. Researches are going on.  the Agnichayana, a 3000-year-old ritual, the longest and the oldest surviving ritual of mankind, is performed in Panjal in Kerala. It is a 12- day ritual performed by Namboothiri Brahmins of Kerala. Long considered extinct and never witnessed by outsiders, the ceremonies require the participation of seventeen priests, preceded by several months of preparation and rehearsals.

(Further reading: http://www.scientificindians.com/culture/traditions/athirathram-%E2%80%93-the-oldest-vedic-ritual)

Let us leave the complicated parts, but i know of people personally, (many of you may do as well) whose life course of difficulties are alleviated by the performance of common homams such as Ganapaty Homam, sri Sukta Homa, etc.. If anything is performed with sincerity, one does really get help! Why even these? I know of persons whose life has changed for the better simply by offering coconuts to Lord Vighneshwarar, or even by simple chanting of Vinayagar Agaval.

Ramana Bhagavan says in Ramana Gita 1.22 ?The seeker of knowledge does not achieve his end merely by a study of scriptures. Without upasana there cannot be attainment for him, this is definite.?

I present some verses from Rig Veda that talks about Fathers, in context to Pitru Karyams.:

1. MAY they ascend, the lowest, highest, midmost, the Fathers who deserve a share of Soma-
May they who have attained the life of spirits, gentle and righteous, aid us when we call them.

2 Now let us pay this homage to the Fathers, to those who passed of old and those who followed,
Those who have rested in the earthly region, and those who dwell among the Mighty Races.

3 1 have attained the gracious-minded Fathers, I have gained son and progeny from Viṣṇu.
They who enjoy pressed juices with oblation seated on sacred grass, come oftenest hither.

4 Fathers who sit on sacred grass, come, help us: these offerings have we made for you; accept them.
So come to us with most auspicious favour, and give us health and strength without a trouble.

5 May they, the Fathers, worthy of the Soma, invited to their favourite oblations.
Laid on the sacred grass, come nigh and listen: may they be gracious unto us and bless us.

6 Bowing your bended knees and seated southward, accept this sacrifice of ours with favour.
Punish us not for any sin, O Fathers, which we through human frailty have committed.

7 Lapped in the bosom of the purple Mornings, give riches to the man who brings oblations.
Grant to your sons a portion of that treasure, and, present, give them energy, ye Fathers.

8 Our ancient Fathers who deserve the Soma, who came, most noble, to our Soma banquet,?
With these let Yama, yearning with the yearning, rejoicing eat our offerings at his pleasure.

9 Come to us, Agni, with the gracioug Fathers who dwell in glowing light, the very Kavyas,
Who thirsted mid the Gods, who hasten hither, oblation winners, theme of singers' praises.

10 Come, Agni, come with countless ancient Fathers, dwellers in light, primeval, God-adorers,
Eaters and drinkers of oblations, truthful, who travel with the Deities and Indra.

11 Fathers whom Agni's flames have tasted, come ye nigh: ye kindly leaders, take ye each your proper place.
Eat sacrificial food presented on the grass: grant riches with a multitude of hero sons.

12 Thou, Agni Jātavedas, when entreated, didst bear the offerings which thou madest fragrant,
And give them to the Fathers who did cat them with Svadha. Eat, thou God, the gifts we bring thee.

13 Thou, Jātavedas, knowest well the number of Fathers who are here and who are absent,
Of Fathers whom we know and whom we know not: accept the sacrifice well prepared with portions.

14 They who, consumed by fire or not cremated, joy in their offering in the midst of heaven,?
Grant them, O Sovran Lord, the world of spirits and their own body, as thy pleasure wills it.

Note: Again this Soma Juice is another controversy, i do not get into :D All i would like to say is that Soma Juice is not what it is commonly understood as.

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॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 08:56:51 PM »
Dr Sundaram, friends,

some more thoughts.

As mentioned in my previous post, there are many such similar suktas that speak of the oblation to the fathers and prayers to the lord of death Yama as well. But what is not to be found in the Vedas is how does one perform or show ones gratitude to the Fathers, but it is certain that the Karma Kanda of Vedas are very clear about the right of living, and Such a one is an"Aryan". Aryan is one word widely seen in the vedic mantras. Perhaps the highest ideal spoken about in the mantras.

This set of rules are laid down by Rishis such as Apasthamba and Gauthama in their Sutras, prescribe how one may show ones gratitude to various things in the nature, Gods, Fathers - the highest ideal of the Vedas. How respectfully and ideally an Aryan ought to live and offer ones Thanks giving is what so delicately prescribed in the rules as the ways.

The other things such as what was mentioned in your article about reaching vaikuntam etc.. are the fruits for the actions performed of the kartha for his sincerity. A feeling of "Contentment" and affirmation that yes, ones father after the death is going to higher realms and would not the son and the related people feel comforted to know that their fathers have not just disappeared but have reached the Gods abode and as a son, one offers repent for all one may have not performed knowingly or unknowingly his obligatory duties as an Aryan towards his Fathers. And to convey ones heartfelt gratitude to all that the Fathers have done to them, bringing up, etc.. So even in a mourning, the spirit of "Aryan" is not left out. The value of Aryan was above everything else. This was the vision of the Seers and the Rishis. This is what they had in their minds who formulated the samskaras

More apart the above spirit, the tarpanams, etc.. that are performed throughout the life is more towards oneself, to not forget the past about their fathers and most importantly, to oneself who would have to bear with the loss of ones father. Such acts such as offering tarpanam gives the performer a contentment, when performed in such a spirit that his fathers come and receive their offerings with full heart. These do have psychological motives as well.

Your articles also mentioned about persons of different faith and non believers if they also reach the goal such as Vaikunta. IN Gita Krishna has said: (4:11) says: 'Whatever and whichever way men approach Me, even so do I accept them; whatever paths they may chose finally lead to Me' And the Vedas as said before do not mention about religion or paths, they simply speak of highest ideal. Therefore Gita, sutras and puranas are never in violation against each other.
 
The Vedas do not speak about paths, they lay down the nature of an Aryan, to say so in brief. The highest ideal is spoken off in the Karma Kanda, How an Aryan leads his life, he offers his gratitude to various spirits, Gods, nature, fathers, the elements. Such was the connectivity ideal mentioned in the Karma Kanda.

How one is to achieve the Vedic ideal is shown by the Guru who has lived and seen what is stated in the Vedas. Only who has lived such an ideal alone can guide others. Such a one is Guru. The Guru came up with set of rules that people can follow and following which would nourish and kinder the spirit of "Aryan". They obviously cannot go and communicate to each person one by one. They set such standard way of living, that came to be known as Achara, samskaras, what we call tradition.

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 09:05:59 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2014, 09:23:17 PM »
Dr Sundaram , friends,

finally in your article you mentioned

Having Vedas as the yardstick , should we not reject / discard all AVAIDIC  RITUALS  for our own good, failing which we are wrongly lead and  exploited? 

Yes, the Rishis have also provision for this too, when one attains the complete perfection so as to be absolutely unabusive of the nature and its resources where there is absolutely no giving and taking between one and the nature, when such a perfection is attained holistically, where one has truly become an Aryan, which is the highest Purushartha, for such a one, these samskaras are redundant. This is attained by virtue of passing through various stages of life. The Rishis came up with Sanyasa Ashrama, where one is absolved of any such duties and rituals. But even Sanyasis too have some other rules too a to live and conduct oneself.

But ordinary folks who are predominantly a Bhokta, enjoyer, who has been extensively consuming all of the nature and causing so much harm to the nature has no right to stop his duties, or rituals so to say, as these rituals are various ways of yajnas to give back to nature what we take from it. very body is obligated to perform the Pancha Maha yajnas 5 yajnas towards Rishi Yajna, Deva Yajna, Manushya Yajna, Pitr Yajna and Bhuta Yajna.



What you says is primarily the siddhanta of Jains in a general way. Jina means conqueror. One who has conquered all the impediments to the highest ideal is a Jina, a perfected being. But it eventually turned out to become a separate religion eventually. But having become a separate way, which completely discarded the Vedas, God. came up with a similar set of samskaras eventually. Similarly Buddha too, who came separate from the Vedas and the samskaras came up with more or less similar samskaras eventually.

All paths cannot do away with rituals.

"A path is a ritual"

--

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 09:28:03 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Jewell

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2014, 10:40:35 PM »
Dear Sri drsundaram,Friends,

I wish to share some of mine experiences and thoughts about this subject. In my country we have these rituals too. They are probably not the same,and we do not have a Vedas to follow instructions,but rituals of all kinds were always part of people here.
I now look on them like sort of prayer and thinking of that person,since i cannot tell what is a true practice(genuine one),and what is just added by all ppl here,by invaders,pagans,etc. There are some practices totally ridiculous and strange,and the thing is,there is no single person who knows how to do it,and there is no two persons who agree on same practice. I think that is something which happened in India too. Because of that,i follow these rituals in a way that this is a prayer from me for that person. I thought,whatever done with the thought of this man,will certainly help. About their real significance i cannot tell,so thats why i wont say that they are needed for sure. For me this is just giving a respect to that person.

Infact,this is something i came in touch again last and this year,since my grandma died. I was literally attacked from all sides,from all older women. Every single woman told me that i should do different thing than what previous woman said. One said it is like this in here village,other says it is not like this,next one does not agree with them... Complete craziness. In the moment when they suposed to take the coffin out,one grand ma approached me and said i should say:"You go your way,we wont come with you. ". ::) Sure,i did not want to say it,coz it sounds so ridiculous,rude and strange. And there was so many such things. In the end,i was looking them,myself,how we actually do not think of her at all,but about such silly things,would i put by her side towel or jacked,or who knows what else...

And then i realised one very valuable thing,these things we do when someone departs,i salute all of them if they are greeting to that person,but much much important thing is to love this person whille alive,to show love,to be kind and present. Only that truly matters! That is something i learned from all this. Like that also,that anything done with true heart have its fruits. Rituals or not,right or wrong,our heart and intention is most important.

And i will say,there is a truth in the words of your friend Sir,and there is a truth in words of all members here.

I guess,here we also need to discriminate very much,betwean the foolishess and true meaning of something.

[added later]
I wish to add one thing i totally forgot when posting,the most important part,about liberation and rittual considering the same. I also believe this is not possible,to chant some mantra for departed one,and he gets liberated. This truly sound absurd and does not have any sense. I really doubt it.

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 05:19:09 AM by Jewell »

Ravi.N

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2014, 02:13:29 AM »
Friends,
Being grateful,thankful and all that is quite in order and will ensure freedom from personal grief- but that is not the key issue here.The key issue is to deal with the karmic burden of the departing soul -the fact that one is born implies that one has come with a baggage -and when departing a certain baggage gets carried.The departing soul depends on those with life links(close relatives like spouse,sons ,daughters)to share a part of this load(which ofcourse it has been doing during its life time as well).This needs to be absorbed by the relatives and towards this they need to follow discipline.particularly ,couples need to avoid sexual relations during this period immediately after death of the near one.This is to ensure that harmful karma does not get transferred to the offspring ,if the conception happens during this period.Instead of the grownups absorbing the karmic load,it may fall on the defenceless soul in the womb.
How do we know that the transfer of imprint has taken place?Soon we may get some thoughts in us which were not there earlier.It may be good thoughts -giving charity or taking to spiritual life.Or it may be adverse thoughts as well-It depends on the baggage that the departed one carried and what desires remain unfullfilled but were ready to manifest at that point in time.One has to be alert and deal with them appropriately.
The Karmas that are carried out are for the purpose of absorbing these imprints and act on them in an appropriate manner.Typically the Eldest son(well versed in the vedAs)is expected to deal with this-although others also share the load.
The Departed soul ,out of the body does take time to find its bearings and lightening the karmic burden frees it from being rooted to its past moorings.
There are more occult phenomena involved here.The padma purana (Sri aurobindo recognized that it is written by some one with good occult knowledge)deals with this subject.
Master TGN has touched upon this subject many a time .
I have given the essence of what he has said.More of it may be a distraction.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2014, 07:06:37 AM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

I understand the importance of what you have mentioned very briefly is seldom found anywhere anywhere in books or does one openly talk about these.

I would be grateful if you can kindly write further on the issues of the karmas of departed souls. It would be nice if you mention what Master TGN has said about these and the ways one may overcome the same.

Thanks so much.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2014, 07:28:57 AM »
drsundaram/Friends,

Quote
Since the  effects of after death rituals are  are not to be confirmed by the departed souls   this may remain an unresolved question for ever. Only people with analytical skill and wide reading of scriptures can accept the truth of my words.
Rituals , if , for the dead body is useless and  if for the soul , it  is meaningless because SOUL is immortal !

Just wish to add that no one performs last rites with the express purpose of securing mOksha for the departed soul.

To say that -only people with analytical skills and wide reading of scriptures can accept the truth of my words-is something that I do not know what to say!

For if anything and everything can be arrived at through analysis,there is no need for the vedAs.Further the Truth is not something that can be secured through reading and analyzing the scriptures.Sadhana is required for this-to verify the Truth first hand.

To say that-Rituals , if , for the dead body is useless and  if for the soul , it  is meaningless because SOUL is immortal !-is also something that I do not know what to say!

If the soul is immortal,then why do sadhana or read the Gita?

The Body,even though dead is to be given due respect;it has carried that soul thus far in the journey ,and deserves to be treated with honor and dignity.Part of the samskara is also to dissolve it into five elements-pancha bhootha.If a plumber or carpenter comes to our house and after fixing the tap or repairing a furniture,leaves the place with dust and grime all around and departs,will we accept it?Here,in this case,the departing soul is not in a position to dispose the body and this needs to be done by those close to it-its relatives or friends.

Later on ,I will post what kAnchi mahAswAmi has to say on this-How he insists on giving this treatment to even total strangers who have no one to take care.

I would request your friend to study Deivaththin kural(if he knows Tamizh)-Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi or else,he may read the translation of the same in this blog(although this does not cover everything):
http://advaitham.blogspot.in/

To learn the Gita is quite good but to understand it properly,a Guru and sadhana are required.This is what Sri Ramakrishna says :

MUKHERJI: "It is good to read sacred books like the Gita."

MASTER: "But what will you gain by mere reading? Some have heard of milk, some have seen it, and there are some, besides, who have drunk it. God can indeed be seen; what is more, one can talk to Him.

Different stages of spiritual progress
"The first stage is that of the beginner. He studies and hears. Second is the stage of the struggling aspirant. He prays to God, meditates on Him, and sings His name and glories.The third stage is that of the perfect soul. He has seen God, realized Him directly and immediately in his inner Consciousness. Last is the stage of the supremely perfect, like Chaitanya. Such a devotee establishes a definite relationship with God, looking on Him as his Son or Beloved."

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2014, 07:41:08 AM »
nagaraj,

Quote
I would be grateful if you can kindly write further on the issues of the karmas of departed souls. It would be nice if you mention what Master TGN has said about these and the ways one may overcome the same.

TGN has given an exclusive talk on -'What happens after death' and the CD is available.He has given this talk quite a few times(may be 4 or 5 times).I never have been interested in this,and I did not listen to this talk,even though my mother-in-law had this CD.
Suffice it to say what I directly heard during one of his talks where by way of expounding something he touched upon this subject-'At one point in time,I wanted to know what happens after death;I started visiting all the burning ghats.There is not a single burning ghat in Chennai that I have not visited.The matter became clear to me and this is what I am telling you'.
Again he has said this regarding Meher Baba(He gave a Talk on this great soul as well).He said-"Meher Baba used to travel in a car;on the way ,if he encountered any funeral procession,he would get down from the car and accompany it to the burning ghat or burial ground.He had the ability to help the soul in its onward journey and he would extend it and return to his place'.

Yes,I will try to listen to that talk and share more details,god willing.

Namaskar.

drsundaram

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2014, 07:46:48 AM »
thanks  to all my dear friends of this forum... shri ravi and others who are  sharing their beautiful, healthy thought. mr ravi i am astonished at your sharp memory power. nice going. what a learning. God bless us all.

Ravi.N

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Re: performing rituals to the departed
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2014, 07:59:02 AM »
drsundaram,

Thanks for your kind words.How humble you are!Just wish to add one more thing-Regarding the Gita verses mentioned by your friend-Please refer to kAnchi mahAswAmi's talks that refer to these in the vedAs thread-'vedas and vedAnta-any conflict?' topic.That would clear the doubts your friend has raised.
I wish him all the very best.

Namaskar