Author Topic: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas  (Read 6513 times)

Hari

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Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« on: May 27, 2014, 12:39:01 PM »
A months ago I have read some article by Sri David Godman about Ramana's view on the mind and jivas and today I have found the whole article. It is very voluminous. The topic was about the eka-jiva vada and drishti-srishti vada. I have talked about with Sri Nagaraj time ago but actually I didn't analyzed the matter so deeply as now after reading this article. I noticed that Sri Ravi has participated in the commentary also. This is the whole article: http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2010/04/swami-siddheswaranandas-views-on.html.

I want we to discuss this:
1. If everything is in our own minds then how can we trust Ramana or someone else's teachings when they are creation of our minds (and we know our mind is not perfect)?
2. If everything is in our minds then why any compassion to any creature? Why to speak to anyone? Why to help anyone? I can live a very egoistic life?
3. If everything is in our minds then why we cannot change the environment we are in? This should be perfectly possible.
4. If everything is in our minds and Sri David Godman and people commented there believed in solipsism then why they comment at all? Who will listen them? Speaking to our delusions?
5. If everything is in our mind then Vedas and God are just our creations, we are not creations of God.
6. Can one jiva live alone? So we have thoughts and feeling and the others - mother, father, children are just lifeless automatons?
7. If my mind is the Creator of the Universe so I should be Ishvara. This sounds utterly ridiculous.
8. If Ramana really taught this then why such compassion to people, even animal and plants? Is this teaching just meant to more profound vairagya or what?

Let see these. Of course there are many other questions but these are enough, at least for now.
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Ravi.N

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 06:51:22 AM »
Hari,
I will refer you to this site which may give you some idea of the Srishti-Drishti,Drishti-Srishti and Ajati vadas.

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/creation.html

The Home page is here:
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/

Essentially what all this means is this-The Seer and the seen belong to a whole.This 'whole' may be considered as an 'Object'(Srishti-Drishti Vada),This 'Whole' may be considered as a subject(Eka Jiva) (Drishti-srishti Vada) and lastly the 'Whole' is simply the 'Whole' and is ever the 'Whole'-Ajati vada .Brahman is the 'Whole' devoid of subject(s) and object(s).

Namaskar.




Hari

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 12:12:11 PM »
It seems from what I have read that all these are just philosophical axioms, practical. All of them cannot be true. If Ajati is the last 'stage' of understanding, realization, then why is the postulation of the other two?

Not to mention that drishti-srishti vada is so much ethical unacceptable. If I truly believe in this concept then I would never treat the world properly. It is not a sacred play of God but of my weird imagination. Ishvara, Guru and Scriptures become creation of my imperfect mind (so why should I trust them at all). People become entities not worthy to sacrifice myself for them. Why should I give my energy, attention, money and so on for them when everything is mine and they are just soulless appearances? Is it that what is Vedanta for? But if I accept the idea, living thinking that everything is 'in my head' but pretending not to be (e.g. living normally) then I would lie myself, I should live like a man with personality disorder. :D If all is in my head and I choose drishti-srishti vada then I demand all of you to accept only my theory! I am your creator so behave according to my will and desires! :D So out of the joke - more and more I become to wonder where is all this loving and compassionate, affirmative to life Indian philosophy which drawеd me. What I have found is some negative, all-excluding, solipsistic, in practical term - almost nihilistic philosophy where misery is a 'gift' accelerating the Self-realization, the suffering is the fuel for the process, the Goal - somewhere in the future, life - predestined event, Love - not the goal but some 'mean' for realization of this not-clear-what-it-is Self. Thank goodness that not all Indian philisophies are like that. I know that I will be attacked for my words but I always talk what I think and this will not change. So if this is a problem, please Sri Graham, feel free to delete my account.
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Ravi.N

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 08:36:00 PM »
Hari,
If something is so blatantly absurd like what you presume,surely Sri Bhagavan would not be stating it!So,it just would mean that we are not in a position to understand the subtlety of the Drishti-srishti Vada
Where is the problem in the conclusion that you have arrived at?:
 
Quote
If I truly believe in this concept then I would never treat the world properly.

The problem lies here:Will you treat your 'I' or the Ego properly?If so you will treat the world accordingly.It is only if we are in a position to dismiss the ego as unreal that one can afford to dismiss the world as a projection as well.
Dristi-srishti Vada is only meant for those who are in a position to see the unreality of the Ego ,the unreality of 'I am The Body' thought.Such rare blessed souls have already experienced 'I am Brahman' .
For the one Identified with Brahman,the world is a projection of the Cosmic Mind.Such a one will treat all 'Others' (There are no 'Others' for such a one!)like oneself.This is true compassion(not the sentimental stuff that is only a farce!).
In Truth,Brahman alone is,the world is never apart from it.

The entire problem is that one is caught up in the paradigm of 'I am The Body' and is looking at the paradigm of 'I am Brahman' and trying to evaluate it.
The Problem is not thus in Indian Philosophy but in our lack of subtlety to comprehend it.

Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 09:22:49 PM »
Sri Ravi,
for me one philosophy to be useful it should not try to oppose the conventional reality we live in. If universe is creation in my mind and after realization the mind dies then who continue to 'create' the manifestation?

You said yourself:
Quote
The Problem is not thus in Indian Philosophy but in our lack of subtlety to comprehend it.

Then what use of such philosophy? Not to mention that drishti-srishti vada is false from the beginning because from the viewpoint of advaita only ajati/a (I don't know the right spell) vada is correct in the true sense of the word "correct". How could we say that drishti-srishti is more correct that srishti-drishti? How can we adore drishti-srishti when the Sacred Texts we adore speak only about God's Creation and Play.

How would you live from now on if solipsism is your way of view of life? Because it is the view that matters. The objects are objects, they are the same, no matter if you accept srishti-drishti, drishti-srishti or ajati vada. It is your view of these objects which can be different. Would be happy to hug your children? To kiss your life? To chant the name of God? To read the word of Sri Ramakrishna? When you have accepted in the first place that they are ash, creations of your imagination... That's my point. That's where I lose the heart of spirituality and warmth go to coldness.

I want you understand my heart now. My situation is not so much like existential crisis but more like disappointment of how Sages I respect by all my heart teach such coldness. Solipsism is not the same as Ekatma jiva vada. Ekatma jiva vada says that our attitude must be that there is only one Atma (Soul) in all these minds, not the egoistic view of solipsism that only my mind exists and only I have soul. How to be compassionate to those other beings if I accept in my heart that only I have soul, mind, feelings?
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Ravi.N

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 09:53:47 PM »
Hari,
What is useful to one may be useless to another.There is no one size fit all.This is the reason that there are various sadhanas for people with varying degree of maturity.For most people Advaita is beyond reach.The Identification with the body is so strong and as much as one may understand the 'idea' of advaita,in practice it just does not mean anything.Srishti-Drishti Vada alone will be useful to these souls .

For your information,Solipsism is not Drishti -Srishti Vada.Why?The Solipsist never doubts the existence of his 'I',the Ego sense, as distinct and  apart from what He sees.The Drishti-Srishti Vada equally dismisses the 'I',The Ego sense along with the 'seen'.Please see this important distinction.

Typically this point of view(Drishti-Srishti) would be fit for those who have experienced Nirvikalpa samadhi and are yet to stabilize themselves in sahaja.Such ones are indeed rare.

Ajati is for those in sahaja samadhi.For these Great ones,only Brahman alone is.

There is truly nothing cold about the Sages or their teachings.

You yourself has said it:
Quote
Solipsism is not the same as Ekatma jiva vada. Ekatma jiva vada says that our attitude must be that there is only one Atma (Soul) in all these minds, not the egoistic view of solipsism that only my mind exists and only I have soul.
You may add:
Quote
only my mind exists and only I have soul about which I know nothing of!

Drishti-Srishti Vada is the same as Ekatma(jiva) Vada-Only one Self is.This 'jiva' is not apart from 'other jivas'.Just like One life is that of a tree with various branches and Leaves.Instead of thinking that Each Leaf has a life of its own,it is actually one Life that permeates the Tree.

If you are not comfortable with Drishti-Srishti and if it does not make sense to you,no one is compelling you to accept it.Drop it.Focus on your worship,devotion,and other helpful acts as inspires you.Only give this much allowance that it may make sense to someone mature enough for that.
If you truly respect the sages,you must be in a position to grant this benefit of doubt and allow the needed time to let it reveal its Truth.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 10:32:28 PM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 10:02:01 AM »
Dear Hari

Just expressing my thoughts as a wellwisher. BY observing your expressions over a period of time, i feel you have been dabbling with various spiritual schools of thoughts across the world. I am not saying it is  bad, it is good to get inputs from various cornors, but it will be of no avail if the approach towards the quest is unproductive. There is evidently deep unrest within you.

I also see you have brought in various new terms, that as a layman I have not heard before like  solipsism, and many other terms i am unable to even recollect.

I also feel your questions are right but your approach could be better. You may be sincere, but it is not enough. If we are just sincere in acquiring more and more knowledge alone, it wont be enough, you must be able to chanalise them towards one path so that it does not end up pulling you down. It is significant that the eastern spiritual school demands the sadhaka to surrender to one  preceptor and engage in service to the Guru not just mentally but physically, renounce worldly affairs gradually, regulate one's diet and living and so on and wait for eternity if it is required to be guided towards the truth, unconditionally. This kind of single pointed focus helps a sadhaka more than trying various things. (Take time to choose your Guru, if you have to), but having made the choice, stick to him and him alone.

I do feel you are a very  sincere sadhaka and will take these thoughts in stride and take yourself further. I am just expressing as a wellwisher. I felt your collected thoughts over time would only make a good Thesis on "Comparative Study of Religions" in a university rather than help you advance yourself.

We need to rest your faith in one. We need to realise that one cannot realise or rationalise the truth by the intellect. I feel you are stuck right here and need to recognise that you need to approach beyond the intellect and rationale or reason. Truth cannot be rationalised, it will always either stump you if you recognise or you would get stuck if not recognised.

You also raised points about a western approach to eastern spirituality and how a native indian would approach spirituality. I am afraid, a westerner has to imbibe the Vedic spirit in looking at Indian spirituality. YOu very well need to become one by being here, living here and only then be able to appreciate the unity of the common thread in various schools of thoughts of indian spiritual school even though they may be appear to be against each other. This is the spirit that one needs to really be a christian to appreciate Christ a Moslem to appreciate Allah "in spirit" and do not mix up each other. For your own good, do not mix up Advaita school with Dvaita or Visishtadvaita and so on. See each from its own school of thought and learn to appreciate the essence in it all.

The differences are so simple and sweet across all schools of thoughts! Sweets may be difference all over the world, but the sweetness is the same. When you are enjoying the sweetness what avail is it to measure it or analyse it as various terms, which you have been bringing forward.

Be a layman, do not complicate yourself. Truth is much much simpler.

I conclude by the following verse of Lord Krishna:

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

Please also have a read of the following post from Sai Sat Charitra:

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7164.msg34008#msg34008

(1) It is not enough merely to prostrate before the Jnanis. We must make Sarvaswa Sharangati (complete surrender) to the Sad-guru.

(2) Mere questioning is not enough. The question must not be made with any improper motive or attitude or to trap the Guru and catch at mistakes in the answer, or out of idle curiosity. It must be serious and with a view to achieve moksha or spiritual progress.

(3) Seva is not rendering service, retaining still the feeling that one is free to offer or refuse service. One must feel that he is not the master of the body, that the body is Guru's and exists merely to render service to him.

Best wishes my friend
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 10:04:40 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 04:51:48 PM »
Quote
What is useful to one may be useless to another.

If there is no other mind except me then how can I trust the experience of anyone and its efficiency?
Quote
For your information,Solipsism is not Drishti -Srishti Vada.Why?The Solipsist never doubts the existence of his 'I',the Ego sense, as distinct and  apart from what He sees.The Drishti-Srishti Vada equally dismisses the 'I',The Ego sense along with the 'seen'.Please see this important distinction.

Not every solipsist does not doubt the existence of his mind. It is not true. But he cannot reject it because it is the only experience he is sure of. It is not the same as the dilemma "Do the other people exist independently on me or not" because this is just a thought, idea. But the feeling that "I" exists (no matter if it is real or not) is not easy to start doubting.
Quote
Typically this point of view(Drishti-Srishti) would be fit for those who have experienced Nirvikalpa samadhi and are yet to stabilize themselves in sahaja.Such ones are indeed rare.

Really? I doubt that. Who says so? Was Sri Ramakrishna less Self-realized than any of the proponents of Drishti-Srishti? Does believing in one concept instead of other makes you you more advanced. I doubt that too.

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There is truly nothing cold about the Sages or their teachings.

I dont say exactly so. I say that the way we understand them and the way their followers spread them make them seems cold. But again to say that a Sage is cold or not I first must postulate His/Her existence. Other way it is just absurd to even talk about that.
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Drishti-Srishti Vada is the same as Ekatma(jiva) Vada-Only one Self is.This 'jiva' is not apart from 'other jivas'.Just like One life is that of a tree with various branches and Leaves.Instead of thinking that Each Leaf has a life of its own,it is actually one Life that permeates the Tree.

I am surprised that you don't make distinction between one mind and one Atman. Eka-jiva vada means that there is only one mind creating the illusion of existence of all other 'jivas'. So the imaginary me creates the imaginary 'others'. So the others are one step more unreal than me which is strange because we share the same reality (no matter what is its nature).

Quote
If you are not comfortable with Drishti-Srishti and if it does not make sense to you,no one is compelling you to accept it.Drop it.Focus on your worship,devotion,and other helpful acts as inspires you.Only give this much allowance that it may make sense to someone mature enough for that.
If you truly respect the sages,you must be in a position to grant this benefit of doubt and allow the needed time to let it reveal its Truth.

My problem is that according to Advaita reality must be view from absolute and conventional (phenomenal) point of view. Conventional reality should have some values. Just as gravity is gravity no matter if we want it or not. We cannot change it by changing our believes. So it is difficult to me to accept that drishti-srishti and srishti-drishti are equally true. And the most problematic for me is - how some Self-realized Sages Who have experienced the final truth can say the the first is right and others - that last?!
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Hari

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 05:12:13 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
I agree with your points. Finding true Master is really a gift beyond expressions. But how and where to find? There are so many frauds in Kali Yuga everywhere. India is not exception. Only God can give us this extraordinary Gift - to meet a real Guru.

I agree that everyone should comment only after meeting first hand with the people with the respective religion or school. My point was different. The schools and religions are what they are. Their philosophy will not change. More and more Indians go to the West and teach Advaita. They feel that it is their duty and want to share the 'truth' everywhere. How do you think the westerner would react when someone tells him/her that the world is unreal, that his family and ghost-figures, that their death is nothing, that all the world is in their head and so on. I have visited forums and some of the ideas and understandings of the people there are disastrous. They say that the world is theirs, that it doesnt matter what they do the world is unreal after all, many does not even want to continue their duties, to advance and give their best in their job and so on. West is not the East. Many if not all the Indians condemn Carl Jung calling him coward and many other offensive words because he said that however true the Eastern philosophies are, they are dangerous for the modern Europeans. But now I see that it is actually true and the Jung was actually very perspicacious man knowing well the West and the East (may be not right for everything of course but generally). So Indians come to Europe and America and they choose to teach Advaita. Why Advaita? If all paths lead to the Truth then why they thrust the one which is most dangerous for the western mind?

Thank you for the link and all of your help. You have been always good friend!
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Ravi.N

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2014, 08:15:59 PM »
Hari,

Quote
If there is no other mind except me then how can I trust the experience of anyone and its efficiency?


I have said something that is plain common sense-What is useful for one may not be useful for another.Please take this in the everyday sense.

Quote
how can I trust the experience of anyone and its efficiency?

By discovering the same in us.The Sages are not referring to their experience.They are referring to our experience and are asking us to interpret and make sense of it.They are asking us to see in ourselves the Truth of what they are pointing.They are not asking us to Believe.They are asking us to critically examine our experience that we mindlessly go on repeating.They are asking us to see for ourselves the identification with the Body-the 'I am the Body' thought that is the root of all misery.If the Body is healthy,we say-'I am Healthy';If the Body is sick,we say-'I am Sick' etc.They are also asking us to see for ourselves the identification with thoughts.They are asking us to see for ourselves how we are buffeted by thought -This moment we are happy and the next moment we are bored;this moment we are driven by desire and the next moment we are calm.They are asking this fundamental question-'Can you stand without identification with thought and the Body'-as pure awareness.They are giving us the certitude that this is not only possible but also that this is our true Nature.They also say that in doing so we will be free forever.
Now it is for us to verify for ourselves the Truth of what they have said.

Quote
But the feeling that "I" exists (no matter if it is real or not) is not easy to start doubting
What is to be doubted is not the feeling 'I Am' or I Exist.What is to be doubted is 'I am The Body' or 'I am the Mind' and it is not enough to doubt this-It has to be carried forward and should end in the clear and direct perception of the very nature of this existence as 'I am Brahman'.This is the very purpose of 'Who am I' or self-enquiry.

Quote
I am surprised that you don't make distinction between one mind and one Atman. Eka-jiva vada means that there is only one mind creating the illusion of existence of all other 'jivas'

 It is identification with the mind(thought) (and not the mind per se-even a jnani uses this mind)that creates the individual jiva and enables the seeing of multiple jivas -all distinct from oneself.Ravi is one jiva and Hari is another jiva and so on.For a Jnani ,Ravi does not exist as a separate jiva nor Hari as another separate jiva.He may still continue to maintain the distinction in the Vyavaharic (Transactional)sense but he is aware of only One Self without a second.

Please note this-Mind+Vasanas=World;Mind-Vasanas=Atman.Mind is thus not apart from atman.Pure mind is Atman.

What is the world?It is that which is experienced through the 5 senses,when the mind links itself to the senses.If the mind delinks itself from the sense organs ,there cannot be perception of the world.So the presence or absence of the world depends on its perception or lack of it by the mind.This is Drishti-Srishti Vada.The Atman is not like this-It ever is present irrespective of whether the mind perceives it or not.It is there in deep sleep as well and just cannot be denied;Or else the peace of deep sleep cannot be experienced.Is the world like this?Is it ever present like the atman?It is the presence of the atman that we intuit as the unchanging identity in us-even though we age from childhood to old age,irrespective of whatever changes in our life style,etc.

Where then is our problem if not in understanding this directly - not just through inference or hearsay?

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2014, 09:52:59 PM »
Hari,

Here is an excerpt from the introductory chapter in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Quote
The Master wanted to train Narendra in the teachings of the non-dualistic Vedanta philosophy. But Narendra, because of his Brahmo upbringing, considered it wholly
blasphemous to look on man as one with his Creator. One day at the temple garden he laughingly said to a friend: "How silly! This jug is God! This cup is God! Whatever we see is God! And we too are God! Nothing could be more absurd." Sri Ramakrishna came out of his room and gently touched him. Spellbound, he immediately perceived that everything in the world was indeed God. A new universe opened around him. Returning home in a dazed state, he found there too that the food, the plate, the eater himself, the people around him, were all God. When he walked in the street, he saw that the cabs, the horses, the streams of people, the buildings, were all Brahman. He could hardly go about his day's business. His parents became anxious about him and thought him ill. And when the intensity of the experience abated a little, he saw the world as a dream. Walking in the public square, he would strike his head against the iron railings to know whether they were real. It took him a number of days to recover his normal self. He had a foretaste of the great experiences yet to come and realized that the words of the Vedanta were true.


It is clear from this that this that the sages are not spinning yarns by way of 'vadas' but are actually referring to experience of the world  from different standpoints depending on the maturity of the aspirants.

Ravi.N

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2014, 07:28:45 AM »
Hari,

Quote
So Indians come to Europe and America and they choose to teach Advaita. Why Advaita? If all paths lead to the Truth then why they thrust the one which is most dangerous for the western mind?

Actually it is the other way round!There are more westerners teaching(preaching) advaita than Indians.Advaita is not opposed to any of the existing Religions.No Genuine Master will say :
 
Quote
that the world is unreal, that his family and ghost-figures, that their death is nothing, that all the world is in their head and so on

He will say:

Quote
'Do all your duties, but keep your mind on God. Live with all - with wife and children, father and mother - and serve them. Treat them as if they were very dear to you,
but know in your heart of hearts that they do not belong to you.
A maidservant in the house of a rich man performs all the household duties, but her thoughts are fixed on her own home in her native village. She brings up her Master's
children as if they were her own. She even speaks of them as 'my Rama' or 'my Hari'. But in her own mind she knows very well that they do not belong to her at all'.

Advaita is not opposed to Dvaita and Visishtadvaita or any other Religion.Advaita does not mean anarchy,destruction of values and tradition.
Traditionally Advaita is not taught to all and sundry.It is on account of today's free access to information,Jet flights that has reduced time and Distance ,zealous people who think that they have mastered advaita(mostly book learning!)and are Eager to share their Learning(or otherwise!) that has lead to the mushrooming of various institutions.
The True aspirant will only seek what is wholesome.Just like Home food is Best whether MacDonald or  Kentucky Fried Chicken or Saravanas or be it any of the well known Food Chain is open and is thronged by all and sundry.If there is hunger,ordinary food will be tasty and nourishing.
There is one Yardstick that needs to be applied-Whether the words of any Guru tallies with the Vedas?If not,We have nothing to do with him,whoever be the Guru.

I am Happy to see that Graham has given this piece of advice in the Home page:

Quote
I recommend visitors to be cautious about applying anything they read on the forum to their lives, unless it is also clearly stated in the Vedas, as these are the final authority
.

One may then ask:How do we know what is said in the Vedas?My response to that would be -Please read Taittriya Upanishad.It just says everything that an aspirant should do,should learn,should attain.Use this to measure the words of any teacher.If it tallies,then you may accept it.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2014, 10:57:03 AM »
Dear Hari,

I would suggest you to not bother representing the western world and voicing their concern, it would do much good if you spoke just for yourself and sort yourself clear. If we approach like this, then here too, Eastern world would begin to say the Western people come here and preach Christianity/Islam and engage in mass conversions and open cash rich ministries and so on. In our country we have had dangerous past to recollect horrors if it be said.

I mean where are you leading yourself to? You are not helping yourself, my friend! As Bhagavan says, It would do good if each one just minds ones own salvation rather than become a crusader representative for various groups.

Just a right spirit of discussion, my friend. There is evidently a misunderstanding and a lack of clarity, due to lot of dabbling. This is what happens when one approaches the scriptures without the guidance of Guru. It is only the Guru who initiates and imparts the supreme knowledge of Truth after carefully scrutinizing the worthy in the disciple. The Upanishadic truth by its very word indicates to be known in the eyes of the Guru, face to face.

There are plenty of genuine Guru all over. it seems you are infused thoroughly by negativity perhaps due to the internet. Internet is no real source for spiritual upliftment.

if you really strive to find a Guru, you will. Have you really tried? Going beyond the internet? IT depends on the effort of the disciple. There is a Guru waiting for every sincere disciple. so much pessimism creeped in you. this is classic example why one needs Sat Sanga. Not this Internet-Sanga, not Knowledge-Sanga.

Do not get confused my friend, this pessimism will not solve anything for you or the world.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2014, 03:14:49 PM »
Thank you, Sri Ravi!
Sri Nagaraj, yes, the cause for our problems is always within ourselves. We only project it 'outwards' for our own convenience.
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Hari

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Re: Bhagavan Ramana's explanation on the jivas
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2014, 03:23:59 PM »
I also find that engaging so many people with my own concerns, however frankly they are, is just egoistic of me. I am sorry for this. I will try to solve the problems by myself in the future.

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