Author Topic: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms  (Read 19529 times)

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2014, 07:24:46 AM »
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from that wonderful chapter 'Four aids' from Sri Aurobindo's 'Synthesis of Yoga':

The spiritual progress of most human beings demands an extraneous support, an object of faith outside us. It needs an external image of God; or it needs a human representative, - Incarnation, Prophet or Guru; or it demands both and receives them. For according to the need of the human soul the Divine manifests himself as deity, as human divine or in simple humanity, - using that thick disguise, which so successfully conceals the Godhead, for a means of transmission of his guidance.

The Hindu discipline of spirituality provides for this need of the soul by the conceptions of the Ishta Devata, the Avatar and the Guru. By the Ishta Devata, the chosen deity, is meant, - not some inferior Power, but a name and form of the transcendent and universal Godhead. Almost all religions either have as their base or make use of some such name and form of the Divine. Its necessity for the human soul is evident. God is the All and more than the All. But that which is more than the All, how shall man conceive? And even the All is at first too hard for him; for he himself in his active consciousness is a limited and selective formation and can open himself only to that which is in harmony with his limited nature. There are things in the All which are too hard for his comprehension or seem too terrible to his sensitive emotions and cowering sensations. Or, simply, he cannot conceive as the Divine, cannot approach or cannot recognise something that is too much out of the circle of his ignorant or partial conceptions. It is necessary for him to conceive God in his own image or at some form that is beyond himself but consonant with his highest tendencies and seizable by his feelings or his intelligence. Otherwise it would be difficult for him to come into contact and communion with the Divine.

This entire chapter is wonderful and covers all the basics of sadhana:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7216.0
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2014, 08:15:43 AM »
Friends,
Here are a couple of excerpts from AnDAL where she emphasizes that the relationship with God is indissoluble and that efforts(Tapas)has to be performed here and now:

குறை ஒன்றும் இல்லாத கோவிந்தா உந்தன்னோடு
உறவேல் நமக்கு இங்கு ஒழிக்க ஒழியாது
                       (Verse 28,TiruppAvai)

கோவிந் தற்கோர் குற்றேவல்,
இம்மைப் பிறவி செய்யாதே
இனிப்போய்ச் செய்யும் தவந்தானென்?
                            (NAchchiyAr Tirumozhi)

Here AnDAL asks sharply-'Rather than serving Govinda here in this birth,what is the Tapas that one would do going thence(to vaikuntam)'?

In the whole of TiruppAvai,AnDAL is emphasizing that God is here and Now.Not to perceive Him here and to look for him as the denizen of another divine world-Be it vaikuntam or Kailasam is mere speculation only.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2014, 08:20:20 AM »
Friends,
Mahakavi BhArati 's says the same in this  song from his jnAna pAdalgaL:

சங்கு

செத்தபிறகு சிவலோகம் வைகுந்தம்
சேர்ந்திடலா மென்றே எண்ணியிருப்பார்
பித்த மனிதர்,அவர் சொலுஞ் சாத்திரம்
பேயுரை யாமென்றிங் கூதேடா சங்கம்!


இத்தரை மீதினி லேயிந்த நாளினில்
இப்பொழு தேமுக்தி சேர்ந்திட நாடிச்
சுத்த அறிவு நிலையிற் களிப்பவர்
தூய ராமென்றிங் கூதேடா சங்கம்!


பொய்யுறு மாயையைப் பொய்யெனக் கொண்டு,
புலன்களை வெட்டிப் புறத்தில் எறிந்தே
ஐயுற லின்றிக் களித்டிருப் பாரவர்
ஆரிய ராமென்றிங் கூதேடா சங்கம்!

மையுறு வாள்விழி யாரையும் பொன்னையும்
மண்ணெனக் கொண்டு மயக்கற் றிருந்தாரே
செய்யுறு காரியம் தாமன்றிச் செய்வார்
சித்தர்க் ளாமென்றிங் கூதேடா சங்கம்!

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2014, 08:25:34 AM »
Friends,
This is how Sri ramakrishna puts it:

The inferior devotee says, 'God exists, but He is very far off, up there in heaven.' The mediocre devotee says, 'God exists in all beings as life and consciousness.' The superior devotee says: 'It is God Himself who has become everything; whatever I see is only a form of God. It is He alone who has become maya, the universe, and all living beings. Nothing exists but God.'

Namaskar.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 965
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2014, 02:49:50 PM »
Ksksat,
If you carefully and earnestly go through whatever has been presented you will get the answers to the questions that are raised prior to the series of post.The point is simply this-You are thinking that the form of siva is onething and the Nature of Siva which is Sivam is another,which is just belief and misplaced.All I have said is that without the Sivam or Consciousness,form does not mean anything.Form and name go along with the quality they represent.Mere three eyes,matted locks,trident ,Deer skin do not mean that it is Siva.Siva is Sivam-anbeY Sivam,Love alone is sivam.Siva appeared to the Nayanmars in various forms ,to say that all are his forms only.He appeared to somAsi nAyanAr in the form of an untouchable with his wife and 4 dogs.It was on account of the tapas of sOmAsimAra nAyanAr and how he had served sunadaramurthy nAyanAr who vouchsafed him this inner vision -that he could see God in that form and understood that the Lord has appeared in that form and that the 4 dogs meant the 4 vedas.He realized that all forms are that of siva and permeating them is the pure consciousness, that is sivam.The Rest of the Brahmins who had gathered there to perform yAgam rushed out of that place on seeing the untouchable and the dogs.They also saw what sOmAsimAra nAyanAr saw but did not recognize Him.Seeing a form does not mean anything without perceiving the consciousness behind the form.
Whoever said that chanting the name is for concentration?Please read my posts from the Gospel.
Our friend Subramanian has pointed out already that without recognizing the sivam in us,we cannot recognize the sivam in any other form,when he quoted manikkavAchakar.I have paraphrased what he has said.

Namaskar.

No Ravi sir, I agree Shiva is full of consciousness.  Shiva is made of Shivam.

But to say that such a shiva in kailash is a mere aid , an illusinaory aid is to deny the authority of the scriptures and vedas.

Secondly, the nayanmars many of them on many occasions have had visions of shiva .  Arunagirinathar's Muruga visioin was seen by many.

I think if we inherently heart and heart dont believe that Shiva and Vishnu exist and are mere imaginations, we can find hundreds of stories and poems to interpret that way.  Our mind is very tricky.

All I want to highlight is , to have a childish faith even at this moment we have not seen Vishnu and other forms.

When we exist with a body, can not Ishwara exist with a body?  And that body will be holding good until the final dissolution?  Why are we not digesting that fact?

Why to use advaita and mahatma's experience of Brahman to achieve our end of doubts on existence of forms?

I dont here say that consciousness and form are different, consciousness penetrates all forms but there are certain forms like that of Shiva which are identical in substance with Consciousness and the other mortla forms can worhsip Shiva to get liberated.

I think my message here is very simple and straightforward.


Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2014, 03:13:10 PM »
ksksat,

Quote
When we exist with a body, can not Ishwara exist with a body?  And that body will be holding good until the final dissolution?  Why are we not digesting that fact?

This is how isAvasya upanishad says:IsAvAsyam idam Sarvam.Anyway,I am not here to disturb your Faith and Belief.Please continue with whatever Faith and inspiration that you are endowed with.Godspeed to you.
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47081
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2014, 04:12:43 PM »
Dear Krishnan, Ravi,

The child Jnana Sambandhar's first verse (1.1.1) is this:



தோடுடைய செவியன் விடையேறியோர் தூவெண்மதிசூடிக்

காடுடையசுட லைப்பொடிபூசியென் னுள்ளங்கவர் கள்வன்
                                                  ---------------------------------     
ஏடுடையமல ரான்முனைநாட்பணிந் தேத்த அருள்செய்த

பீடுடையபிர மாபுரமேவிய பெம்மா னிவனன்றே.

He is having thodu (kuzhai for males and thodu for females.  He is wearing on one ear thodu (to mean that He has come
with His wife Uma (who gives Her breast milk to the crying child).  He comes in bull.  He is wearing pure white crescent moon.
He is applying vibhti from cremation ground.  He has stolen my Heart (ie. He is occupying my Heart).  Thus He stays already
in the ULLam (Bhagavan's word).  He is prayed to by Brahma who is seated on the lotus.  And He graced Brahma.  It is
the glorious Brahma Puram (another name for Sirkazhi).  He now stands on the temple towers of Sirkazhi with His wife.
Thus child Jnana Sambandha sings to his father, when the latter asked him, who gave milk to him!

From the above one can say that after occupying the Heart, Siva and Uma appear on the temple towers!

Thus not only Jnana Sambandha but also in many Nayanamars' cases, Siva first occupies the Heart and then only appear
before them.

Arunachala Siva.       
 
   

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47081
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2014, 05:11:19 PM »
This is how Sundaramurti SwamigaL starts his padigams.  First is about TiruveNNai Nallur, 7.1.



பித்தாபிறை சூடீபெரு மானேஅரு ளாளா


எத்தான்மற வாதேநினைக் கின்றேன்மனத் துன்னை
              --------------------------------------------------------                   
வைத்தாய்பெண்ணைத் தென்பால்வெண்ணெய் நல்லூரருட் டுறையுள்

அத்தாஉனக் காளாயினி அல்லேன்என லாமே.

Here, the saint poet says:  I am always keeping you in my mind.  Instead of Heart, he uses the word manam, mind.
Thus, Siva occupies his mind within.  Then only he sees Him disappearing into TiruveNNai Nallur Temple.

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47081
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2014, 05:19:24 PM »
Saint Tirunavukkarasar in Tiru Adigai, in his first song requests Veerataana Sivan to cure his colic pain.  However,
in his second verse (4.002), he says:


நெஞ்சம்முமக் கேயிட மாகவைத்தேன்
---------------------------------------------------
நினையாதொரு போதும் இருந்தறியேன்

வஞ்சம்மிது வொப்பது கண்டறியேன்

வயிற்றோடு துடக்கி முடக்கியிட

நஞ்சாகி வந்தென்னை நலிவதனை

நணுகாமல் துரந்து கரந்துமிடீர்

அஞ்சேலுமென் னீர்அதி கைக்கெடில

வீரட்டா னத்துறை அம்மானே.

Thus he uses the word Nenjam (Heart) where Siva has occupied.  Then only he is able to see Veerattanathu Siva.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47081
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2014, 05:23:12 PM »
Saint Manikkavachagar says in Siva Puranam, 8.1.



நமச்சிவாய வாஅழ்க நாதன் தாள் வாழ்க

இமைப்பொழுதும் என் நெஞ்சில் நீங்காதான் தாள் வாழ்க
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
கோகழி ஆண்ட குருமணிதன் தாள் வாழ்க.....

The saint poet says that Siva has not left His nenjam (Heart) even for the time of a wink of an eyelid!  Thus Siva
has occupied His heart first.  Then only all praises about His feet come.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2014, 05:31:38 PM »
Subramanian/Friends,
All wonderful compositions.Thanks very much.Yet,these have a symbolic significance.The Description of the Primeval Lord,especially his adornment are all primeval.Here is a good article from shaivam.org.All the articles(Shaivam,A Perspective) figuring there are quite well written.You may have read them earlier.Please look up:
http://www.shaivam.org/shpnatur.htm

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2014, 05:38:39 PM »
Subramanian/Friends,

வானாகி மண்ணாகி  வளியாகி ஒளியாகி
ஊனாகி உயிராகி உண்மையுமாய் இன்மையுமாய்
கோனாகி யான் எனது என்று அவரவரைக் கூத்தாட்டு
வானாகி நின்றாயை என் சொல்லி வாழ்த்துவனே
.

It is quite clear what the vision of Manikkavachakar is.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:33:51 PM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2014, 05:50:11 PM »
Subramanian/Friends,
There have been references to Kailasam/Vaikuntam worlds.For those interested,Here is an excerpt from kAnchi mahAswAmi's talks:

Nirguna brahman is subtler than the subtle state. By the work of MAyA the concrete creation takes place. This is the concrete state. In between the two states is the state of Hiranyagarbha. This is the state where creation has not yet taken place, but the saguna-brahman with its MAyA has kept the whole creation within itself as if in the embryo stage. Hiranya means gold. AvidyA (Ignorance), otherwise MAyA, by itself is like darkness, but by the presence of Brahman-consciousness it works out this wonderful task of creation, the consciousness which thus shines and reflects is said to be golden.
The gate that allows things to go out is also the gate through which things enter. So the creation which came out from Hiranyagarbha goes back inside through the same Hiranyagarbha. When does it go back? when Hiranyhagarbha is of age one hundred and thus his lifetime is over, he merges into nirguNa brahman. In our reckoning, 1000 caturyugas (the period of four yugas: Krta, Treta, Dvapara and Kali) make one day-time of Hiranyagarbha. Similarly another 1000 caturyugas make one night of his. So that his one full day is 2000 caturyugas. His years are calculated on this basis. Like that he lives 100 years of his. All that time Creation goes on. When he is of age 100, he is taken in into Brahman. Along with him all the worlds, jIvas and all that was created would go and merge into Brahman. Brahman alone is there now. Whatever time was spent in all this creation, an equal time goes on without any creation, but with Brahman alone. Then Creation begins again.
When the lifetime of Hiranyagarbha ends his Creation work ends and he merges in the ParamAtmA. This event is called 'Adyantika-pralaya'. You may recall I earlier mentioned it and told you I will come back to it later.
For the majority of of us jIvas who have a lot of karma balance and instead of going on the path of Karma-yoga, or Bhakti, or Yoga or JnAna, have to repeatedly die and be born, they are destined to suffer lakhs and lakhs of janmas till that pralaya. He who goes by the jnAna path merges in brahman in this life itself. The others who are 'upAsakas' escape from the birth and death syndrome, but still do not get the advaita-mukti. They go to Brahma-loka and from there at the time of Adyantika-pralaya dissolve in the very brahman along with Creator BrahmA.
What would be that Brahma-loka like? He who reaches there would not have either the internal enemies like lust, anger, etc. or the external enemies like disease, heat and cold, asura, etc. Their life will be pleasant and pure. This is true of all kinds of upAsakas who go there.
Besides this, for each particular kind of 'upAsaka' it will be different.
For the Karma person, it will be a place where whatever he desires that is not faulty will be fulfilled.
For the Bhakti person, it will be a place which has the favourite deity that he wanted to reach
. Brahma-loka does not mean that there is BrahmA there. Various bhaktas might say that even beyond, further higher up, there is Vaikuntha (the loka of Vishnu) and there is Kailasa (the loka of shiva); but really it is this Brahma-loka that appears to different viewers in a different way. The same paramAtmA shows up as Vishnu, Shiva in the 'different' lokas.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:36:36 PM by Ravi.N »

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47081
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2014, 05:56:50 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Nice and splendid quotes from Mahaswami. Incidentally Jayendara Saraswati Swami and Vijayendra Saraswati Swami
are camping in Bangalore.  And they are here since 25 days.  My wife went with her friends in a car and saw them
for a few days.  She also took part in Sumangali Puja one day.  Young 8 to 10 year old Vedapatasala boys are also
there brought from various places of Karnataka.  They chant every day some Veda portions.  All of them have been
accommodated in a school called Vidya Niketan in about 15 kms. from my house.

Arunachala Siva. 

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4054
    • View Profile
Re: Reality of Shiva, Vishnu and other forms
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2014, 07:38:56 PM »
Subramanian,
Your wife is truly blessed to have had darshan of the AchAryAs.
Namaskar.