Author Topic: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required  (Read 5781 times)

ksksat27

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source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« on: September 12, 2013, 01:53:18 PM »
Recently when I opened a topic on book reading,  Anand Sundaram sir felt an urge to start self enquiry as soon as possible as he felt that life is short.

In self enquiry,  i hope all members here will have some basics atleast by now.

The major point of two variants of self enqiry has always been a mystery to me. 

In Who Am I book,   Bhagavan repeatedly asks to the source of this I thought.

Means,  first turn your attention from object A to I thought by the question to whom this object A thought has arisen.  Here there is no confusion,  first you are asked to turn the attention to the thinker from the second person object A about whom the thinker inititally had a thought.

So now the attention is on the thinker the I thought.

Here comes the confusion.   Bhagavan Ramana now asks to find the source of this I thought, from where it springs out.  This 'where' I understand is not a physical place but merely we need to find the birth place,  the source or the root from where the thinker I thought springs out.  At this stage ,  I feel it very difficult to carry on self enquiry because this source 'where' question puts a stress and starts a small mental activity for me.

On the other hand Nisarghadatta Maharaj simply tells to pay attention to the sense of I am, the I amness feeling.  David Godman in his Book Be As You are,  tells to abide in subjective feeling, the inner sense of I,  more or less similar to Maharaj's explanation.

Please clarify me here --  shall I just abide in the I amness feeling and attend to myself the thinker or should I question the source of this I thought?

Bhagavan also says like if one continously thinks I , I , it will lead to the Source or That place Heart.  But from Bhagavan's sentence it seems like a auxiliary or substitute way.

Jewell knows about Maharaj's method and can offer a comparison here.

Members -- please help to clear my doubt.

Also explain in detail how do you do self enquiry.

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 02:02:14 PM »
Pl
Quote
ease clarify me here --  shall I just abide in the I am ness feeling and attend to myself the thinker or should I question the source of this I thought?

Krishna,

It is one and the same and not two different methods. Source of I thought is an answerless question. When you try to find the source of I thought, what results is helpless surrender. And the surrender is nothing but abiding in the source and the question, questioner and the questioned disappear in that source. This is also the reason we say Jnana ends in Bhakthi (Supreme Surrender).

Not directly related to your question (may be), but just remembered what Nochur Acharya says in a satsang in this context (In Tamil) : "Adangi arivathu bhakthi. Arinthu adanguvathu jnanam" (Surrendering and knowing is bhakthi, knowing and surrendering is jnanam)

-Sanjay.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:09:04 PM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

Jewell

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 05:10:23 PM »
Dear Sri ksksat27,

I can tell You how i practiced,and how i practice now self enquiry,and how i understood it. Their mettod i see like pretty much the same,with few differences only,in general.

When i started self enquiry i followed the mettod You mentioned,to continously think I , I. It helped me to bring attention to myself and try to catch it. It was somehow very natural. Every time i tried to catch that I. To me it looks like watching myself in the mirror. And that I,I,I helped me to focus on myself in a better way.

Now i only try to stay in that presence,knowledge,feeling that I am. Even staying in presence is not good way of describing it,but i dont know how else to put it,or say it.
 I think that holding onto sense of I Am,or subjective feeling of myself,or knowledge I Am is just self awareness,self attention.  I remember Maharaj elsewhere mentioned that only knowledge I am should meditate on itself,without body sense or body identification.

So,it is very important to try to stay in that borderline,in the begining of the knowledge I am,so to say.

For me to try to find the source of I thought is just that. Only Bhagavan call it and explain it differently.

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 05:12:12 PM by Jewell »

ksksat27

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 05:24:48 PM »
Dear Sri ksksat27,

I can tell You how i practiced,and how i practice now self enquiry,and how i understood it. Their mettod i see like pretty much the same,with few differences only,in general.

When i started self enquiry i followed the mettod You mentioned,to continously think I , I. It helped me to bring attention to myself and try to catch it. It was somehow very natural. Every time i tried to catch that I. To me it looks like watching myself in the mirror. And that I,I,I helped me to focus on myself in a better way.

Now i only try to stay in that presence,knowledge,feeling that I am. Even staying in presence is not good way of describing it,but i dont know how else to put it,or say it.
 I think that holding onto sense of I Am,or subjective feeling of myself,or knowledge I Am is just self awareness,self attention.  I remember Maharaj elsewhere mentioned that only knowledge I am should meditate on itself,without body sense or body identification.

So,it is very important to try to stay in that borderline,in the begining of the knowledge I am,so to say.

For me to try to find the source of I thought is just that. Only Bhagavan call it and explain it differently.

With love and prayers,





Jewell

thanks for your reply.  please elaborate more.

you have told this:

I think that holding onto sense of I Am,or subjective feeling of myself,or knowledge I Am is just self awareness,self attention.

also you have told this:

So,it is very important to try to stay in that borderline,in the begining of the knowledge I am,so to say.

For me to try to find the source of I thought is just that. Only Bhagavan call it and explain it differently

Please explain both stages clearly.

What is self attention or self awareness is more or less clear to me.

but later what is this borderline (Maharaj) or source of I thought (Maharishi)  the second portion in your reply.  Please explain it more clearly.  step by step.

Subramanian.R

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The experience I Am and searching the source of mind and abiding as the Self, when the mind which is searching for the
source, --- both are the same.  Normally after finding when the mind is quiescent in the Self, The experience of I AM comes
about. Sri Bhagavan has also said that mere repeating of I,I, I, also takes you to the source.

Arunachala Siva.     

Jewell

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 06:40:35 PM »
Dear Sri ksksat27,

I dont know if i can explain better,and I truly dont know what is what actually,to give it some sort of definition,coz any rationalisation does not help me at all. I just can say what i do,and that is, I just hold that knowledge,or feeling of I Am. We know that we are,that we exist,and with that knowledge and sense we go and what ever we do,that sense of presence is there. Just holding onto that is self enquiry. Holding that I. These are Bhagavan words in a way,and i cannot find better way of describing it. That borderline how Maharaj call it,is knowledge "I Am" without words for me. Not even to think I am,or repeat it,or anything,just stay in that presence. It seems to be still the thought,coz it is very fragile,but not laud one. Even,It is more just witnessing. The more i try to do that,the more is hard to explain it,or,there is not even need to do that. So,i am not sure if i can say anything more about it. What is what actually,i think we will see for ourselves. I truly dont know,i know only to do it in a way i described. Then,i dont know what is or where is I,and what is what.

I hope this can be of some help.

With love and prayers,

ksksat27

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 07:16:29 PM »
Dear Sri ksksat27,

I dont know if i can explain better,and I truly dont know what is what actually,to give it some sort of definition,coz any rationalisation does not help me at all. I just can say what i do,and that is, I just hold that knowledge,or feeling of I Am. We know that we are,that we exist,and with that knowledge and sense we go and what ever we do,that sense of presence is there. Just holding onto that is self enquiry. Holding that I. These are Bhagavan words in a way,and i cannot find better way of describing it. That borderline how Maharaj call it,is knowledge "I Am" without words for me. Not even to think I am,or repeat it,or anything,just stay in that presence. It seems to be still the thought,coz it is very fragile,but not laud one. Even,It is more just witnessing. The more i try to do that,the more is hard to explain it,or,there is not even need to do that. So,i am not sure if i can say anything more about it. What is what actually,i think we will see for ourselves. I truly dont know,i know only to do it in a way i described. Then,i dont know what is or where is I,and what is what.

I hope this can be of some help.

With love and prayers,

Dear Jewell

thanks ,  this helps a lot,  you had explained a lot in second message.

from what i infer,  i think staying the subjective feeling of I,  that inner sense of I is what is easy and appeals to me.  Let me do that and see for myself. 

thanks again.

Beloved Abstract

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 09:00:28 PM »
all this trying ... trying trying trying ... lol
simply STOP trying and let yourself be what you already are ...
all the doing is to AVOID the truth of who you really are
self enquiry is asking yourself the hard questions and then answering truthfully
in this way you will see how all the DOING and TRYING started
once you see this there is a choice to stop or not
but before you see this there is no choice only spinning in circles ... reincarnation of the story of the self
"call off the search" ... Papaji    :)
if you are struggling simply surrender to the fact that you will never get what you are struggling for
what a relief !   ha ha ha    so simple
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

deepa

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 09:23:19 PM »
all this trying ... trying trying trying ... lol
simply STOP trying and let yourself be what you already are ...

Beloved abstract - this is the advice I was given by my Guru also. It is enough to go through the motions patiently and it will come. This is also a surrender..

I have been practicing self enquiry for nearly 3 years now.. I am at a point where I can stay as just awareness for some time meaning not many thoughts arise and even if thoughts arise, I am very aware that I am observing them and not "following" or falling prey to these thoughts. But I have no idea what should happen next. Sometimes, tears flow automatically. Other times, I vaguely feel my body as a burden and it feels heavy as though I can't even more a finger. After this went on for many months and I didn't see any "progress", I was getting frustrated.

I was advised to continue without expecting anything.. without paying attention to tears or other body-related symptoms. Don't try to push too hard..this is not a goal like we have to work or otherwise. Just surrender to Bhagawan to guide me automatically. Ours is not to question when we will get the samadhi experience, but just to surrender.

Some of the verses that our Forumites have shared from Tao/Zen are very helpful in this aspect to remove the concept of time from our minds.
 







Anand

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 10:01:35 PM »
dear Krishnan ,
Frankly when I first read about Bhagavan in 1985 , (Talks), while I simply finished the book in one go with some rudimentary understanding, I simply could not understand Bhagavan's "Who am I".
But for quite some years may be atleast 7-8 years but not rigorously ,I practiced whenever a thought came to me "To whom are these thoughts,to me ,whom am I ", thus trying to kill the thought .This exercise I did whenever I remembered that I have to do self enquiry (in the  way that I knew then).
Of late , say 5-6 years I am trying to little bit practice the DAvid Godman ,Sadhu Om method of holding onto the I feeling and sometimes thinking I,I to myself.
I also try to practice the technique given to GAnapati Muni i.e trying to hold to the source of the mantra i.e watch the mind at the point of the beginning of the mantra.
What I have now recognized is that self enquiry should be tried to be attempted throughout our consicous period.
THis way of practicing will also remove the despondent feeling that after all this(i.e after pratising self enquiry or any sadhana) we shall be returning to the mundane almost cruel world.However like beloved extract has mentioned,there should be no expectation  and we should be ready for so called ups and downs.But the efforts at concurrent entry should go on.
I try to think I ,I or watch the mind at the time of the beginnning of the mantra,or try to hold onto the 'I' feeling  whenever I remember between activities like before /after lunch,tea break and in between phases of work when the mind is wondering what to do.
Our swabhava in  pre enquiry days would be worrying,wondering what life will throw up at us.Our efforts at concurrent enquiry, should be to try to make the svabhava either holding onto the source of the mantra, thinking I,I or holding on to the feeling of I.Rest as others have said is upto Bhagavan.
All said and done like Graham Sir has said , it is the supreme self (Also same as Bhagavan and Arunachala) which has brought about this awakening in us however rudimentary,  and we have to trust it to take it to the very end but then again  "arent we already that " :).
Thanks and regards,
Anand Sundaram.
Sundaram Anand

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 11:06:29 PM »
deepa writes ..... " but i have no idea what should happen next "
perfect    :)
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

Anand

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 08:47:39 PM »
    Dear friends,
    While I elsewhere have requested Anilji to revert in detail as to how he practices self enquiry ,I read Bhagavan 's "Who am I " and am penning my thoughts as under.
    1.Self will appear only when world does not appear.
    2.The world will not appear when the mind is quiescent.
    3.To make the mind quiescent what should one do?
      To each thought ask to whom this thought ,reply will obviously be to me , then ask whom am I?
      Kill each thought at the beginning when it starts as a energy ,using above process.
      There may be several thoughts but one should not allow even one thought to fully sprout.
After some time ,the mind will be quiescent and bliss will be experienced.This bliss is the bliss of the self which is the practice as well as the goal.
4.The above should be practised whenever we get free time  and should continue till there is finallly not  a single thought .Above is my understanding .
Now the more the practice ,faster the result .Whether the above is possible in the midst of work ,I have to explore but I think , in work while we may be able to reject thoughts we may not be able to practice to that extent to experience the bliss which is possible in free time.Still I have to explore.Others can possibly give their views in this.In any case as a concurrrent enquiry, I am hoping to continue with "I","I" and finding out the source of a mantra.
Thanks and Regards,
Anand Sundaram.
Sundaram Anand

silence

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 09:47:55 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The experience I Am and searching the source of mind and abiding as the Self, when the mind which is searching for the
source, --- both are the same.  Normally after finding when the mind is quiescent in the Self, The experience of I AM comes
about. Sri Bhagavan has also said that mere repeating of I,I, I, also takes you to the source.

Arunachala Siva.   
Dear Sir, could you please explain how the repetition of I can destroy the I? Or did you mean something else?

ksksat27

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 11:18:19 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The experience I Am and searching the source of mind and abiding as the Self, when the mind which is searching for the
source, --- both are the same.  Normally after finding when the mind is quiescent in the Self, The experience of I AM comes
about. Sri Bhagavan has also said that mere repeating of I,I, I, also takes you to the source.

Arunachala Siva.   
Dear Sir, could you please explain how the repetition of I can destroy the I? Or did you mean something else?

Silence

mentally repeating I , I will lead us to the source after long practice in that way.  This was confirmed by Bhagavan first in Who Am I (I dont remember question number ) but their Bhagavan tells to think I , I not repeat I I.

But much later, when a woman complained that because of household chores, she could not do self enquiry and wanted an alternative, Bhagavan asked to repeat I , I (this time he relaxed it from thinking I , I to repeat I, I)

If you again and again say I , I -- you will invoke awareness of  your "I" feeling and hence the practice. 


silence

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Re: source of I thought or Abide as I am? Self enquiry tips required
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 09:50:56 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The experience I Am and searching the source of mind and abiding as the Self, when the mind which is searching for the
source, --- both are the same.  Normally after finding when the mind is quiescent in the Self, The experience of I AM comes
about. Sri Bhagavan has also said that mere repeating of I,I, I, also takes you to the source.

Arunachala Siva.   
Dear Sir, could you please explain how the repetition of I can destroy the I? Or did you mean something else?

Silence

mentally repeating I , I will lead us to the source after long practice in that way.  This was confirmed by Bhagavan first in Who Am I (I dont remember question number ) but their Bhagavan tells to think I , I not repeat I I.

But much later, when a woman complained that because of household chores, she could not do self enquiry and wanted an alternative, Bhagavan asked to repeat I , I (this time he relaxed it from thinking I , I to repeat I, I)

If you again and again say I , I -- you will invoke awareness of  your "I" feeling and hence the practice.

Why "I,I" instead of just "I"?