Author Topic: world  (Read 3799 times)

incameet

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world
« on: September 07, 2013, 11:51:51 AM »
Does this world exist independently outside of our consciousness? Does it cease to exist when we are in deep sleep or die? Or it continue to exist when we die?

Jewell

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Re: world
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 04:25:14 AM »
Dear incameet,

There is no world outside of consciousness.  With it,comes the world. There is no world in the deep sleep,that we know. And there is no death either. It is just leaving of consciousness. Coz there is no actual entity which lives. That is only consciousness.

With love and prayers,

Graham

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Re: world
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 07:57:36 AM »
Dear Incameet,

The universe and all that it contains is a projection that arises from and is formed of the 'One Reality', which we call Brahman, God, etc.

It is therefore real, is subject to the laws of creation and karma, undergoes change/progress and remains before and after our passing until such time as the Supreme withdraws it.

The statement about its unreality is based upon its temporary nature as opposed to the permanence of its source - the One Self. Temporary in this case is an immense amount of time from the worldly perspective.

Anyone seeking to understand or explain the reality/unreality of creation from within that creation will always find only confusion. It is only by transcending it that perspective becomes clear and its unreality is apparent.

So yes, it continues during sleep, because when you waken it has progressed in some way or another.

Graham

incameet

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Re: world
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 11:03:48 AM »
I see conflicting comments here.

Graham

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Re: world
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2013, 12:15:11 PM »
Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi shattered the world-illusion upon Self-Realization, but the world did not end. We are still here 63 years after he dropped the body, following His teaching.

The world illusion will continue whilst the last scrap of ignorance remains to be conquered. When Self is realized it ends for the Self-Realized, but continues for everyone else.

Self is pure untainted (unmodified) consciousness in which the world-appearance does not manifest. But Self is also the source of the world-appearance, which makes it 'real'.

Whilst you sleep the universe keeps on functioning, the creatures of the night come out and live their lives, people at the opposite side of the world live their daytime lives, your body ages, it does not stop.

There is no contradiction, just lack of understanding.

incameet

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Re: world
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2013, 12:39:06 PM »
I feel this article explains better.
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/sadananda/worldexist_sadananda.htm

ksksat27

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Re: world
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 12:49:27 PM »
Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi shattered the world-illusion upon Self-Realization, but the world did not end. We are still here 63 years after he dropped the body, following His teaching.

The world illusion will continue whilst the last scrap of ignorance remains to be conquered. When Self is realized it ends for the Self-Realized, but continues for everyone else.

Self is pure untainted (unmodified) consciousness in which the world-appearance does not manifest. But Self is also the source of the world-appearance, which makes it 'real'.

Whilst you sleep the universe keeps on functioning, the creatures of the night come out and live their lives, people at the opposite side of the world live their daytime lives, your body ages, it does not stop.

There is no contradiction, just lack of understanding.

Dear Graham Ji,

My humble opinions before you (humble because you have lived through the words of the scripture but not me really  :))

Anycase,  your view shows that even when jiva is deep sleep or so,  the world exists quite separately possible because of the universal Brahman or God per you.

You are quoting the example of people on other side of the ocean pass their daytime while we are asleep.

But Maharishee from starting did not subscribe to this view,  when somebody told that the world exist in the cosmic mind,  he asked,  simply "who is speaking about cosmic mind, did cosmic mind come and tell world exists separately"

Maharishee spoke of Ajata, in the next level to our understanding he only subscribed to drishti--followed by--shrishti vadha only.

The world including the God is only in the mind of the Jiva.  Maharishee in Guru Vachaka Kovai explains a concept of Eka Jiva ,  whereby he explains that all this universe , other jivas, past Gurus,  the historical connectivity,  the Ishwara,  the karma etc. etc. etc just exist in the mind of only one Jiva, who is typing this reply right now.

All other jivas,  the history of this world etc. are just involuntary projection of the innate tendencies of this one jiva alone.


What you have told seems to be the view of Kavya Kanta Ganapathi muni to which Maharishee never agreed.

When major chadwick asked Maharishee about the validity of the subsiding of universe in deep sleep and the validity of the dreams,  Maharishee simply asked him to question the state of universe in deep sleep itself.  No, that time the questions do not come because universe subsides.

You may ask how then the same universe continues after waking up from the night sleep with objects in the previous state.  This is due to the powerful Maya which is deeply discussed in Yoga Vashistam.

Yoga Vashistam says that the great illusion projects a false history, a false continuity on a moment by moment basis.  That is, the whole universe arises and subsides only in this eternal NOW.


Graham

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Re: world
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 01:03:11 PM »
From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

33. A visitor: “The Supreme Spirit (Brahman) is Real. The world (jagat) is illusion,” is the stock phrase of Sri Sankaracharya. Yet others say, “The world is reality”. Which is true?
M.: Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and are spoken from different points of view. The aspirant (abhyasi) starts with the definition, that which is real exists always; then he eliminates the world as unreal because it is changing. It cannot be real; ‘not this, not this!’ The seeker ultimately reaches the Self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity. Being absorbed in the Reality, the world also is Real. There is only being in Self-Realisation, and nothing but being. Again Reality is used in a different sense and is applied loosely by some thinkers to objects. They say that the reflected (adhyasika) Reality admits of degrees which are named:
(1) Vyavaharika satya (everyday life) - this chair is seen by me and is real.
(2) Pratibhasika satya (illusory) - Illusion of a serpent in a coiled rope. The appearance is real to the man who thinks so. This phenomenon appears at a point of time and under certain circumstances.
(3) Paramartika satya (ultimate) - Reality is that which remains the same always and without change.
If Reality be used in the wider sense the world may be said to have the everyday life and illusory degrees (vyavaharika and pratibhasika satya). Some, however, deny even the reality of practical life - vyavaharika satya and consider it to be only projection of the mind. According to them it is only pratibhasika satya, i.e., an illusion.


From the Uddhava Gita in the Srimad Bhagavatham

XXIV

The Sankhya Doctrine

Sri Krishna now turns to expound the Sankhya system as taught by the ancient seers, which rids one of the delusion of happiness and misery consequent upon the notion of diversity. He says:

“Before the Satya yuga there was a single, undifferentiated, infinite, absolute Substance - Brahman - which can be neither conceived nor described. Brahman then assumed a dual form, namely, Maya (illusory existence), and that in which it is reflected (the jiva or intelligence that perceives it). The former is the well-known prakriti (matter or gunas), which consists of cause and effect, and the latter is pure consciousness, or Purusha (Person or Self). When I disturbed the equilibrium of prakriti the three groups of qualities emerged (sattva, rajas and tamas), giving rise, by their disproportionate combination among themselves, to Sutra (cosmic activity) and Mahat (cosmic intelligence). From the modification of the latter rose the deceptive ahankara (the cosmic ego) which caused the jivas to identify themselves with the bodies made available to them by their past actions and tendencies. Ahankara was of three types - sattvic, rajasic and tamasic - which together evolved all the gods who preside over them. Impelled by Me, the categories joined together and formed the Cosmic Ego, My playground, which I entered as Narayana the Second Person, as it lay on the primeval waters.

“The universe then sprang up as a lotus from My navel, and on it appeared the four-faced Brahma who, with the help of the active rajas and penance, created the three spheres (lokas), namely, Bhurloka, (the earth and the seven subterranean regions -  Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Talatala, Mahatala, Rasatala, and Patala), Bhuwarloka (the aerial region), and Swarloka (heaven, consisting of Swarloka, Maharloka, Janaloka, Tapoloka, and Satyaloka) with their presiding deities. In Swarloka, live the celestials, in Bhurloka humans and animals (in the earth), also asuras, nagas, etc., (in Atala and other subterranean regions), and in Bhuwarloka, siddhas (ancient great Rishis). All these three major spheres are the planes where the entities who are dominated by the gunas work out their destinies. The four higher sub-spheres of Swarloka, namely, Maharloka and above, are the abode of those who practise spiritual disciplines, according to the degrees of their attainments. The highest of them, Satyaloka, is the abode of Brahma, hence it is also called Brahmaloka. Beyond all these is My own sphere, Vaikuntha, which is exclusively reserved for My own devotees. From the highest to the lowest this creation is nothing but the product of the gunas and moves by Karma of which I, as time, am the Dispenser. As prakriti, I am the matter of all, and, as Purusha (spirit), I pervade all. As the beginning, the middle and the end of all, I alone am real. As in the creation each category emerges from the preceding one (Myself - Brahman - being the primal substance), so at the dissolution each merges back again into its predecessor until everything merges once again in the Unmanifest (prakriti), and then into Me. Investigations into these processes of involution and evolution bring the seeker indubitably to their Final Cause Myself Who will shine like the sun dispelling the darkness of ignorance.

ksksat27

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Re: world
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 01:08:48 PM »
From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

33. A visitor: “The Supreme Spirit (Brahman) is Real. The world (jagat) is illusion,” is the stock phrase of Sri Sankaracharya. Yet others say, “The world is reality”. Which is true?
M.: Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and are spoken from different points of view. The aspirant (abhyasi) starts with the definition, that which is real exists always; then he eliminates the world as unreal because it is changing. It cannot be real; ‘not this, not this!’ The seeker ultimately reaches the Self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity. Being absorbed in the Reality, the world also is Real. There is only being in Self-Realisation, and nothing but being. Again Reality is used in a different sense and is applied loosely by some thinkers to objects. They say that the reflected (adhyasika) Reality admits of degrees which are named:
(1) Vyavaharika satya (everyday life) - this chair is seen by me and is real.
(2) Pratibhasika satya (illusory) - Illusion of a serpent in a coiled rope. The appearance is real to the man who thinks so. This phenomenon appears at a point of time and under certain circumstances.
(3) Paramartika satya (ultimate) - Reality is that which remains the same always and without change.
If Reality be used in the wider sense the world may be said to have the everyday life and illusory degrees (vyavaharika and pratibhasika satya). Some, however, deny even the reality of practical life - vyavaharika satya and consider it to be only projection of the mind. According to them it is only pratibhasika satya, i.e., an illusion.


From the Uddhava Gita in the Srimad Bhagavatham

XXIV

The Sankhya Doctrine

Sri Krishna now turns to expound the Sankhya system as taught by the ancient seers, which rids one of the delusion of happiness and misery consequent upon the notion of diversity. He says:

“Before the Satya yuga there was a single, undifferentiated, infinite, absolute Substance - Brahman - which can be neither conceived nor described. Brahman then assumed a dual form, namely, Maya (illusory existence), and that in which it is reflected (the jiva or intelligence that perceives it). The former is the well-known prakriti (matter or gunas), which consists of cause and effect, and the latter is pure consciousness, or Purusha (Person or Self). When I disturbed the equilibrium of prakriti the three groups of qualities emerged (sattva, rajas and tamas), giving rise, by their disproportionate combination among themselves, to Sutra (cosmic activity) and Mahat (cosmic intelligence). From the modification of the latter rose the deceptive ahankara (the cosmic ego) which caused the jivas to identify themselves with the bodies made available to them by their past actions and tendencies. Ahankara was of three types - sattvic, rajasic and tamasic - which together evolved all the gods who preside over them. Impelled by Me, the categories joined together and formed the Cosmic Ego, My playground, which I entered as Narayana the Second Person, as it lay on the primeval waters.

“The universe then sprang up as a lotus from My navel, and on it appeared the four-faced Brahma who, with the help of the active rajas and penance, created the three spheres (lokas), namely, Bhurloka, (the earth and the seven subterranean regions -  Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Talatala, Mahatala, Rasatala, and Patala), Bhuwarloka (the aerial region), and Swarloka (heaven, consisting of Swarloka, Maharloka, Janaloka, Tapoloka, and Satyaloka) with their presiding deities. In Swarloka, live the celestials, in Bhurloka humans and animals (in the earth), also asuras, nagas, etc., (in Atala and other subterranean regions), and in Bhuwarloka, siddhas (ancient great Rishis). All these three major spheres are the planes where the entities who are dominated by the gunas work out their destinies. The four higher sub-spheres of Swarloka, namely, Maharloka and above, are the abode of those who practise spiritual disciplines, according to the degrees of their attainments. The highest of them, Satyaloka, is the abode of Brahma, hence it is also called Brahmaloka. Beyond all these is My own sphere, Vaikuntha, which is exclusively reserved for My own devotees. From the highest to the lowest this creation is nothing but the product of the gunas and moves by Karma of which I, as time, am the Dispenser. As prakriti, I am the matter of all, and, as Purusha (spirit), I pervade all. As the beginning, the middle and the end of all, I alone am real. As in the creation each category emerges from the preceding one (Myself - Brahman - being the primal substance), so at the dissolution each merges back again into its predecessor until everything merges once again in the Unmanifest (prakriti), and then into Me. Investigations into these processes of involution and evolution bring the seeker indubitably to their Final Cause Myself Who will shine like the sun dispelling the darkness of ignorance.

Dear Graham

This is not to intellectually start some argument (as if we have tasted samadhi lot of time to ascertain things directly  :))

But still,  mind wants some food , so the below question:

Kind request,  do you personally subscribe to drishti-shristhi or shristhi-dristhi doctrine?

And next, what do you feel Maharishee subscribed to , when he composed Ulladhu Narpadhu and other important works including the Who Am I work?  Please dont reply that Maharishee agreed for everything ( :))  that everybody knows ,  so I kindly request to put into the words what you feel Maharsihee subscribed to within the advaita school ( i mean next to Ajata)

Regards,
Krishna


Jewell

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Re: world
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 01:35:29 PM »
Dear incameet,dear Sri Graham,dear Sri ksksat27,

How i understood from the writings,and my own understanding,the world does not exist and exist even when we are in deep sleep,only for that we,or individual consciousness. And even that existence is questionable,since all appearance and disapearance is only of that same individual consciousness,or I Am,or beingness how Maharaj call it. Since time and space also come with it,all time outside of it is questionable,time which passes when we are not there to experience it. So universe,the world comes with the consciousness only. The world for which we know. It seems to continue its existence,but that existence is very much unreal,since I am is subdued for the time being.
The world does not appear to be that solid,like some sort of pure appearance,dream like,like something outside,and in the same time inside of the Self. Like some sort of empty pictures. The Self is penetrating through it,give it life,and yet,remain independent,since all world is just some sort of picture,transparent. So,my understanding is that the world how we experience it,is only experiencable with individual consciousness,without it,is something very different. I think that is why Bhagavan and Maharaj denied its existence during deep sleep. It truly does not exist,in essence.

With consciousness comes the world,with its disapearance it is gone. All actual continuing is something which depends on time and memory. There can be other people which can witness this,but all those people also come with consciousness.  So all actual existing of the world depends only on consciousness,and the world exists or continue to exist only for individual soul,or ego,each one separately. And even that is not quite true.  If that have any sense,coz to me it does not have any...

That is far i can go,and how i see it and understand it,but all other thinking about it brings only confusion,or at least,dumbness for me.

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 05:35:06 PM by Jewell »

Ravi.N

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Re: world
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 01:55:26 PM »
incameet,

Quote
Does this world exist independently outside of our consciousness? Does it cease to exist when we are in deep sleep or die? Or it continue to exist when we die?

What do you think?What is your view?What does this mean to you?Depending on this the response may be recommended.

Namaskar.

Graham

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Re: world
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2013, 03:24:44 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

Bhagavan clearly proposed the Drishti-Srishti Vada - that creation is according to the observer. I am certain that we can all testify to that from experience, where differences appear in peoples' interpretation of even the simplest of events.

This does not negate the reality of the creation as Brahman, nor does it give it reality apart from Brahman.

The scriptures and all Self-realized Sages clearly state that the world, etc. is unreal, meaning that it has no reality of its own, it is not independent of the mind/seer. Their purpose as we all know, is to turn the seeker away from his/her belief that the world has any reality independent of the seer, and to turn their attention to the seer alone.

We are taught that the one Self manifests as the countless jivas undergoing their respective karmas, which would also explain why it does not disappear when one jiva becomes Self-realized or the body dies.

From Talk 487

D.: Does not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised being?

M.: Yes, with this difference that the realised being does not see the world as being apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and the internal happiness of being perfect, whereas the other person sees the world apart, feels imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise their physical actions are similar.



I cannot recommend enough that everyone reads the prose version of the Srimad Bhagavatham from the ashram, as this will remove all doubts and answer every question.

Graham

Ravi.N

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Re: world
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2013, 04:13:25 PM »
Graham/friends,

Quote
I cannot recommend enough that everyone reads the prose version of the Srimad Bhagavatham

Truly a wonderful recommendation.The Great devotee S S Cohen loved this work.To read the Bhagavatham or listen to its exposition by a Great soul -This in itself is  Sadhana.

Quote
This does not negate the reality of the creation as Brahman, nor does it give it reality apart from Brahman

Quote
D.: Does not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised being?

M.: Yes, with this difference that the realised being does not see the world as being apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and the internal happiness of being perfect, whereas the other person sees the world apart, feels imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise their physical actions are similar

Yes.This is what Sri Ramakrishna says so simply:

Quote
"Suppose an office clerk has been sent to jail. He undoubtedly leads a prisoner's life there. But when he is released from jail, does he cut capers in the street? Not at all. He gets a job as a clerk again and goes on working as before. Even after attaining Knowledge through the guru's grace, one can very well live in the world as a Jivanmukta."

Namaskar.