Free will

[Kris]

Hallo everybody!
I whas reading one evening & encounterd an obstacle.
Ramana said
 
that everything is predetermined en there is no free will 
for the adjnani.
with that exception that one can do self enquiry right?
 
Now when doing self enquiry in whatever situation
it does heave effect on the individual,
because he no longer identify with whatever happening.
and finds peace of mind & doesn't care any longer. (he thinks everyting is as it should be)
and sometimes doesn't act/react at all.
 
If he wouldn't heave done self enquiry in that situation 
he might feel miserable & things would turn out differently.
 
So a person has the choice to do or do not self inquiryand it has his influence on many platform.
 
how can you say then everything is predetermine & there is no free will?


I like the statement of schopenhauer wich accompanys Ramana's opinion
You can do what you will, but you can not will what you will

i'm stuck in the self inquiry by free will part.
If it's true it would blow the "predetermined & no free will " part down i guess

I hope someone would like the share another view about this.


thank you very much!
Kris



 

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Krishnan,

Whatever way you put forth your views, whichever way you argue, there is no free will for human beings.  Everything
happens as per the destiny of God/Guru.  Sri Bhagavan's upadesa to His Mother is also this.  Suppose you act as if
it is your free will, even that is as per your destiny.  Destiny covers the human being right from birth to death.  The only
way to overcome destiny is to do self inquiry and stay in stillness in the state of I AM.  Then in that state, you are in  freedom,\
and destiny will not touch you in any way.

Arunachala Siva.     

[Nagaraj]

Dear Kris,

"Summa Iru" - or "Just Be" do not even give room for these analyses and just stay focused, what has to happen will happen, and what ought to be done by you would be done at the appropriates.

I have seen, by staying focused on sadhana, things sort themselves out. Allow the nature to prevail.

--

[Jewell]

Dear Kris,

I agree with Sri Subramanian and Sri Nagaraj. What both of them said is absolutely true.

The fact is,that we dont have a free will,coz in reality there is no we. There is only The Self,The Supreme,and what ever happens is only working of the Maya,of gunas and element play. So,all is only will of God,and whatever we think we do,is actually happening by itself.

Only,very important thing is,so long we identifying with body,we must not go in other extreme,which is idleness,and not to act calling it fate,etc,when we are actually  running away from responsabilities,and actually dont react coz of fear,coz we dont have enough strength,etc. We must be very open,disscrimative,and very,very honest to ourselves in every possible situation. With that,and Self enquiry,we will know when and how to act,and when not. So,that talk on free will must not be a reason for us not to excersize our disscrimination in every moment. Bhagavan said there is no free will,no fate,it is only for the ego,and that is ultimate truth,but for instance,that doasnt stop us for doing some usual thing,like eating for instance. We dont say : O,if its destined for me to eat,the food will fall in my mouth from heaven. We actually open our mouths,and put food in it. I hope i explaned the difference,and what i wanted to point out.

And there is a nice storie from sufies named Trust in Alah,but tether your camel first. Here is the link:

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=6356.45

But,the best way is to do what Sri Nagaraj beautifuly said,and in that way everything will fall in place.

With love and prayers,

[eranilkumarsinha]

Dear Sri Kris,

Sri Bhagwan has taught that the free-will is the present appearing to a limited faculty of sight and will. Sri Bhagwan says that the same ego sees its past activity as FALLING  INTO  A  COURSE  OF  ‘LAW’  OR  RULES—ITS  OWN  FREE-WILL  BEING  ONE  OF  THE  LINKS  IN  THAT  COURSE  OF  LAW.

And when we reach a stage in sadhana, we discern that the Omnipotence and Omniscience of God have acted through the APPEARANCE   OF   OUR   OWN   FREE-WILL. So, we come to the conclusion at last that the ego must go by mere appearances. After all, natural laws are manifestation of God’s Will.

Sri Bhagwan: “Find out to whom Free-Will or destiny matters. Abide in it. Then these two are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these questions. To whom do these arise? Find out and be at peace.”

Therefore, it follows that so long as individuality or the ego lasts, which is mere appearance, so long lasts the appearance of the individual Free-Will. It holds field in association with the individuality only. SELF-ENQUIRY  CULMINATES  IN  REVELATION  THAT  THERE  IS  NEITHER  THE  INDIVIDUALITY  NOT  THE  FREE -WILL.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
 Anil   

[Beloved Abstract]

we look ahead and see choices ... we look behind and see there were none
find the chooser
 

[eranilkumarsinha]

Quote from Sri Beloved Abstract:
“we look ahead and see choices ... we look behind and see there were none
find the chooser.”



Dear Sri Beloved Abstract,

Yes. You have said it so beautifully.  Cryptic but apt.

Sri Bhagwan: “Shine Thou selfless, sapping the pride of those who boasts of their freewill, Oh Arunachala!”

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil

[ksksat27]

Dear Krishnan,

Whatever way you put forth your views, whichever way you argue, there is no free will for human beings.  Everything
happens as per the destiny of God/Guru.  Sri Bhagavan's upadesa to His Mother is also this.  Suppose you act as if
it is your free will, even that is as per your destiny.  Destiny covers the human being right from birth to death.  The only
way to overcome destiny is to do self inquiry and stay in stillness in the state of I AM.  Then in that state, you are in  freedom,\
and destiny will not touch you in any way.

Arunachala Siva.     

Sir it is not me ,  some other new member I guess 

[ksksat27]

Hallo everybody!
I whas reading one evening & encounterd an obstacle.
Ramana said
 
that everything is predetermined en there is no free will 
for the adjnani.
with that exception that one can do self enquiry right?
 
Now when doing self enquiry in whatever situation
it does heave effect on the individual,
because he no longer identify with whatever happening.
and finds peace of mind & doesn't care any longer. (he thinks everyting is as it should be)
and sometimes doesn't act/react at all.
 
If he wouldn't heave done self enquiry in that situation 
he might feel miserable & things would turn out differently.
 
So a person has the choice to do or do not self inquiryand it has his influence on many platform.
 
how can you say then everything is predetermine & there is no free will?


I like the statement of schopenhauer wich accompanys Ramana's opinion
You can do what you will, but you can not will what you will

i'm stuck in the self inquiry by free will part.
If it's true it would blow the "predetermined & no free will " part down i guess

I hope someone would like the share another view about this.


thank you very much!
Kris

Dear Kris,

Bhagavan's message is only for the particular person for the particular situation.  We can take it as Universal and try to apply whatever we can in day to day life.  Otherwise,  Bhagavan Ramana and other jnanis never give a single applicable message to all,  it is very tuned for the questioner.

Maharishee Ramana's universal upadesa is always in silence,  rest all teachings are very much tuned to the questioner.  He never spoke unless somebody asked for some teaching or asked him to do this or that.  Only then words came out from Maharishee that is also to tune to the questioner's current situation.

The same situation but a mother of another boy who sat like Maharishee , Ramana would have very well asked that boy to go home .  So please dont take every statement of Maharishee Ramana as applicable to you.  We never know what innate hidden vasanas and spritual state we are in.

Having said that ,  it was time and again proved many times that sincere prayer to Bhagavan Ramana or any Guru or God has definitely intervened and reduced the intensity of our destiny. This cannot be denied .  So best way is to pray earnestly and dont feel weakened by destiny.

Lord Arunachaleshwarar  and our Bhagavan Ramana Maharishee's names are very potent to ward off all evils and destiny that await us.  We devotees must believe only on free will, put lot of efforts and keep on humbly requesting to reduce our karma load.

[Anand]

Friends,
It is well known that Bhagavan always resorted to his Brahma Astra namely ask to whom these questions arise ,to whom am I .
But there are some from whom this matter  is troubling, like me.
I am requesting friends here who could share what Maha Periva and Sri RAmakrishna had to say on this specifically. Thanks and regards,
Anand Sundaram.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Anand,

Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 19 of Ulladu Narpadu:  The debate, 'Does free will prevail or fate?' is only for those who\
do not know the root of both.  Those who have known the Self, the common source of free will and fate, have passed
beyond them both and will not return to them.'

Arunachala Siva.   

[ksksat27]

Friends,
It is well known that Bhagavan always resorted to his Brahma Astra namely ask to whom these questions arise ,to whom am I .
But there are some from whom this matter  is troubling, like me.
I am requesting friends here who could share what Maha Periva and Sri RAmakrishna had to say on this specifically. Thanks and regards,
Anand Sundaram.

Dear Anand sir,  (for others,  in tamilnadu , esp. tamil brahmins we use to call anybody as 'Sir' affectionately if they are elders ,  this Sir is nowadays not very much required and regarded as a high dose of respect in Americas)

I think you are caught in this free will or destiny confusion.  I am angry with you, you are not believing my words   

Maha Periva clearly spoke in length about this in Deivathin Kural,  he says that the effect is greatly reduced by prayers.  He also says that the multiple factors like our sincerity, the degree of the underlying karma and its strength , the strength of our devotion and the Divine Plan,  everything is mixed and a final modification outcome is achieved.  We never know how much we contributed by your sincerity but it does count.

Sarada Devi wife of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa also categorically said that the bad effect is greatly reduced , reduced in such a way that a pin prinks in the place of a serious blood injury.

Our Bhagavan Ramana was not an advocate of absolute destiny, all he said was, even our prayer and intervention is already there in the script.  Aurobindo mother calls this by another name, the vision of the Divine in the highest plane where even our efforts to intervene and divine intervention is already predicted. But Mother Miira further says we dont have access to that highest plan where everthing if forecasted. 

So there is no rigid destiny at all atleast within our vision.

Every second we constantly alter our destiny.