Author Topic: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?  (Read 5575 times)

Hari

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Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« on: July 30, 2013, 05:45:02 PM »
I cannot find final conclusion about this topic. Some Gurus teach that God must be worshiped along with Guru. But they also teach that Guru is God. So in fact Guru is a form of God. Then why should other form be worshiped? Some say that Guru is like prophet of God meaning that He just teachs but He is not the Creator of the Universe. So is it wrong to consider Guru as all the Gods, as Creator, Controller and Destroyer of this universe, as Brahman Himself? Some argue that if Guru is God then why He does not cure you or make your life straight, don't save your family's life or stop a war. Or if He is God then why He does not know everything... etc. So finally my questions are what is the real teaching about Guru in Vedanta and is it wrong to consider Guru as Shiva, Krishna or Rama?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 06:00:55 PM »
Dear Hari,

Guru and God are one and the same.  Sri Bhagavan has reiterated this on many conversations.,  Conventionally we use to have
photos of Gods and Guru in our home altar and pray to all of them.  It is not necessary.  In the book The Technique of Maha Yoga,
it is said that Guru alone would do.

Again, if you expect Guru to cure your diseases and family problems, your son's education and your daughter's marriage --
you are thoroughly mistaken.  Guru is there only to guide you (provided you are pakvi, mature, to attain moksha.  You cannnot
expect Guru to give you promotions in the office, transfer to a good place etc.,  These are all guided by the already written
Law of Karma.  Very rarely, very rarely, Guru interferes in this matter to help you.  Most of the times, He does not.         

Even Gods are there only to guide you into a good spiritual path and peace.  They do not interfere with the Law of Karma, which takes
care of these things.  I have got my knee pain since 8 years.  I do not pray to Sri Ramana to cure my knee pain, because it
looks silly.

Arunachala Siva. 

Hari

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 06:11:35 PM »
Again, if you expect Guru to cure your diseases and family problems, your son's education and your daughter's marriage --
you are thoroughly mistaken.  Guru is there only to guide you (provided you are pakvi, mature, to attain moksha.  You cannnot
expect Guru to give you promotions in the office, transfer to a good place etc.,  These are all guided by the already written
Law of Karma.  Very rarely, very rarely, Guru interferes in this matter to help you.  Most of the times, He does not.         

My question was about if Guru is the same God governing the Universe, not if He would marry your son or daughter. But even this why not. People pray and some of their prayers are answered. The karma works but life is not inert. It is in constant flow. And I don't think that praying for your knee is silly. Why? Because you think that Bhagavan doesn't care about your pain or because you believe that He is not able to cure it or may be because He doesn't want to? Or you don't deserve that and you must bear the karma you deserve? This of course are very personal questions and you may not answer them.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 06:24:43 PM »

Dear Hari,

God is the creator of the universe.  At the same time, He is also the creator of Wheel of Karma.  As you are born, the Wheel
also starts rotating.  He does not alter the movement of the Wheel, and as I said, He very rarely, very rarely, interferes with
the movement of the Wheel.


Arunachala Siva.   

Hari

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2013, 06:43:37 PM »
This makes me ask you if we can't hope even for an answering a simple prayer then why would we hope for such great thing as liberation? And I point out HOPE, nothing more because if the prayer will be answered or not does not depend on us.

But lets not diverge from the topic. So I can conclude that Guru is God Himself and there is nothing wrong to be worshiped only Guru?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2013, 07:06:53 PM »
Dear Hari,

Prayers are only to get peace and make us stronger to face trials and tribulations.  Prayer is not to be confused with HOPE.
There is a saying, 'Do not make me stronger.  Make me face the challenges in life, with all my weakness.'

Grace is something different. Grace comes into operation when your sadhana is mature and then to give a lift or a last push.

Arunachala Siva.



 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 07:09:51 PM »
Dear Hari,


To add: Guru and God are identical in all their aspects.


Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2013, 08:03:38 PM »
Hari,
Please refer to the excerpt of Sri Aurobindo-Four aids that I have posted in this Forum:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7216.0
Namaskar.

Graham

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2013, 06:33:15 AM »
Dear Hari,

God, Guru and Self are One, therefore to consider Guru as God is not wrong.

I also read, perhaps in the Bhagavatham, that God most certainly answers petty prayers, especially in the early stages, as such responses lead to stronger faith and progress.

In reality it is the 'one Self' manifest in each individual that answers the prayer by the submission of the ego in that moment of appeal, which in turn permits Grace to flow.

As the devotee matures he stops the petty requests and concentrates on the final stages of sadhana.

The entire emphasis of all worship/sadhana, primitive or mature, is the ideal of surrender and its fruits, because that alone leads to final liberation.

Graham

Ravi.N

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 08:13:36 AM »
Graham/Hari/Friends,
I agree with what Graham has posted.Just wish to add this -that Guru is that aspect of God that dispels the Darkness of Ignorance .Similiarly we may distinguish 'Grace' from other boons that God may grant in response to our prayers.Grace is the  power that dispels darkness and reveals God as he is.Guru and Grace are synonymous.

Here is an interesting story of Namadev from 'spiritual Stories as told by Ramana maharshi':

Vithoba found Namdev had not yet realised the Supreme Truth and wanted to teach him. When Jnaneswar and Namdev returned from their pilgrimage, Gora Kumbhar gave a feast to all the saints in his place and among them were Jnaneswar and Namdev. At the feast Jnaneswar, in collusion with Gora, told Gora publicly, “You are a potter, daily engaged in making pots and testing them to see which are properly baked and which are not. These pots before you (i.e., the saints) are the pots of
Brahma. See which of these are sound and which not.”
Thereupon Gora said, “Yes, Swami, I shall do so,” and took up the stick with which he used to tap his pots to test their soundness. Holding it aloft in his hand he went to each of his guests and tapped each on the head as he usually did to his pots. Each guest humbly submitted to such tapping. But when Gora approached Namdev, the latter indignantly called out, “You potter, what do you mean by coming to tap me with that stick?”
Gora thereupon told Jnaneswar, “Swami, all the other pots have been properly baked. This one (i.e. Namdev) alone is not yet properly baked.”
All the assembled guests burst into laughter.
Namdev felt greatly humiliated and ran up to Vitthala (the deity he worshipped) with whom he was on the most intimate terms, playing with him, eating with him, sleeping
with him and so on. Namdev complained of this humiliation which had happened to him, the closest friend and companion of Vitthala. Vitthala (who of course knew all this) pretended to sympathise with him, asked for all the details of the happenings at Gora’s house and after hearing everything said, “Why should you not have kept quiet and submitted to the tapping, as all the others did? That is why all this trouble has come.” Thereupon Namdev cried all the more and said, “You also want to join the others and humiliate me. Why should I have submitted like the others? Am I not your closest friend, your child?”
Vitthala said, “You have not yet properly understood the truth, and you won’t understand if I tell you.But go to the saint who is in a ruined temple in such and such
a forest. He will be able to give you enlightenment.”
Namdev accordingly went there and found an old, unassuming man sleeping in a corner of the temple with his feet on a Sivalingam. Namdev could hardly believe this was
the man from whom he – the companion of Vitthala – was to gain enlightenment. However, as there was none else there, Namdev went near the man and clapped his hands. The old man woke up with a start and seeing Namdev, said, “Oh – you are Namdev whom Vitthala has sent here. Come!” Namdev was dumbfounded and began to think, “This must be a great man.” Still he thought it was revolting that any man however great, should be resting his feet on a lingam. He asked the old
man, “You seem to be a great personage. But is it proper for you to have your feet on a lingam?” The old man replied, “Oh, are my feet on a lingam? Where is it? Please remove my feet elsewhere.” Namdev removed the feet and put them in various places. Wherever they were put, there was a Sivalingam.
Finally, he took them on his lap and he himself became a Sivalingam! Then he realised the truth and the old gentleman said, “Now you can go back.”
Bhagavan added, “It is to be noted that only when he surrendered himself, and touched the feet of his guru, enlightenment came". After this final enlightenment Namdev
returned to his house and for some days did not go to Vitthala at the temple, though it had been his habit not only to visit Vitthala every day, but to spend most of his time with Vitthala at the temple. So, after a few days, Vitthala went to Namdev’s house and like a guileless soul, enquired how it was that Namdev had forgotten him and never visited him. Namdev replied, ‘No more of your fooling me. I know now. Where is the place where you are not! To be with you, should I go to the temple? Do I
exist apart from you?’ Then Vitthala said, ‘So you now understand the truth. That is why you had to be sent for this final lesson’.”

Similiarly we may consider how Arjuna although he had moved with Lord Sri Krishna and considered him as Friend and confidante,never realized the Lord as his Guru.It was only in that moment of crisis at  Kurukshetra when about to commence that Battle,right in the Battlefield he surrendered to the Lord and the Guru's Grace lifted him from the Morass of Darkness.
For the seeker,Guru is paramount.He need not even accept any god if he has faith in the Guru.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 08:21:48 AM »
Friends,
Kabir exalted the position of the guru even above God, for it is the guru that enlightens you about God.

guru govind dono khade, kis ko lage panw; balihari guru apko, govind diyo lakhai

"If the guru and Govind (Lord Krishna) are standing together, at whose feet will you bow down first? I am a sacrifice onto the guru for he has revealed Govind to me"

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2013, 08:39:06 AM »
Friends,
Here are a couple of Excerpts from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna on Guru:

1.A false teacher
"People with a little occult power gain such things as name and fame. Many of them want to follow the profession of guru, gain people's recognition, and make disciples and devotees. Men say of such a guru: 'Ah! He is having a wonderful time. How many people visit him! He has many disciples and followers. His house is overflowing with furniture and other things. People give him presents. He has such power that he can feed many people if he so desires.'
"The profession of a teacher is like that of a prostitute. It is the selling of oneself for the trifle of money, honour, and creature comforts. For such insignificant things it is not good to prostitute the body, mind, and soul, the means by which one can attain God".

2."It is not good to be a guru by profession. One cannot be a teacher without a command from God. He who says he is a guru is a man of mean intelligence. Haven't you seen a balance? The lighter side goes higher. He who is spiritually higher than others does not consider himself a guru. Everyone wants to be a teacher, but a disciple is hard to find."

3."If somebody addresses me as guru, I say to him: 'Go away, you fool! How can I be a teacher?' There is no teacher except Satchidananda. There is no refuge except Him. He alone is the Ferryman to take one across the ocean of the world".

4."One must not look on one's guru as a mere human being: it is Satchidananda Himself who appears as the guru. When the disciple has the vision of the Ishta, through the guru's grace, he finds the guru merging in Him".

5."Anyone and everyone cannot be a guru. A huge timber floats on the water and can carry animals as well. But a piece of worthless wood sinks, if a man sits on it, and
drowns him. Therefore in every age God incarnates Himself as the guru, to teach humanity.Satchidananda alone is the guru".

6.Indeed, there are three words that prick my flesh: 'guru', 'master', and 'father'."There is only one Guru, and that is Satchidananda. He alone is the Teacher.

7."Satchidananda alone is the Guru. If a man in the form of a guru awakens spiritual consciousness in you, then know for certain that it is God the Absolute who has
assumed that human form for your sake. The guru is like a companion who leads you by the hand. After the realization of God, one loses the distinction between the guru and the disciple. 'That creates a very difficult situation; there the guru and the disciple do not see each other.' It was for this reason that Janaka said to Sukadeva, 'Give me first my teacher's fee if you want me to initiate you into the Knowledge of Brahman.' For the distinction between the teacher and the disciple ceases to exist after the disciple attains to Brahman. The relationship between them remains as long as the disciple does not see God."

8."It is Satchidananda that comes to us in the form of the guru. If a man is initiated by a human guru, he will not achieve anything if he regards his guru as a mere
man. The guru should be regarded as the direct manifestation of God. Only then can the disciple have faith in the mantra given by the guru. Once a man has faith he, achieves all.The sudra Ekalavya learnt archery in the forest before a clay image of Drona; He worshipped the image as the living Drona; that by itself enabled him to attain mastery in archery".


Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 10:52:28 AM »


यस्य देवे परा भक्तिर्यथा देवे तथा गुरौ ।
तस्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते महात्मनः ॥


yasya deve parā bhaktiryathā deve tathā gurau |
tasyaite kathitā hyarthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ ||

"Who so hath highest love for God, and for the Guru as
for God, to that Mahâtman the truths here taught
shine in full, become clear of themselves."


यो गुरु स शिवः प्रोक्तो, यः शिवः स गुरुस्मृतः ।
विकल्पं यस्तु कुर्वीत स नरो गुरुतल्पगः ॥


yo guru sa śivaḥ prokto, yaḥ śivaḥ sa gurusmṛtaḥ |
vikalpaṁ yastu kurvīta sa naro gurutalpagaḥ ||

He who is the Guru is Shiva Himself, so declare the scriptures, and the
fact that Shiva is the Guru, is reminded to us in all the Smritis. He,
who makes any distinction between the two, is guilty of the crime of
uniting with his own Guru’s wife.


(Guru Gita)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 11:03:05 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 11:06:10 AM »


I and [my] Father are one.

(John 10.30)
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Is it wrong to consider Guru as God and everything?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2013, 05:36:43 PM »
Sri Ravi, Sri Nagaraj. Thank you for these beautiful excerpts!
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