Author Topic: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.  (Read 38683 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2016, 08:09:06 AM »
Sadhak,
I truly wonder whether you read my posts.I have already answered all your questions.I find that either you do not understand or care to understand-mainly on account of some sentiments that you cherish and anything that seemingly contradicts it is unacceptable,not to mention the limitations of these sentiments (beliefs).

I will just answer one such question for you:

Quote
Once about Arunachala Mahatmiam when he was asked about the passage regarding how people living within a certain distance of Arunachala are initiated without 'diksha', he simply replied that it was because it was so ordained.

The key point here is that no 'Diksha' is needed for those who are OPEN and RECEPTIVE,as Arunachala takes care of their spiritual welfare as their Guru.We may recall how one man approached Sri Bhagavan to give 'diksha'(initiation) and how another person came and entrusted a pile of books in the temporary custody of bhagavan,how Bhagavan found the above referred sentence in one of the books and showed it to the 'First person' who went away!

You would have read about 'Rape' in Arunacahala and the warnings in this Forum.If we have to go by your 'Fundamentalist' type of belief,we have to either say that these never took place or that Arunachala Mahatmiam is bogus.

You may refer this thread:http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4424.0
your comment there:"I agree with graham although I think there is a slant in the article (probably unintended) implying that only western women are in danger. I came to know of an incident a few years back where an Indian woman was followed by a western man up the hill. He clearly did not have good intentions. Finally the woman had to run out of virupaksha cave and towards the ashram since she realized there was nobody else besides the two of them in the cave.Everyone needs to extremely vigilant. The place seems to have deviants from all over the world."

Quote
So Arunachala Mahatmiam is wrong since it has failed to add these important conditions that you have discovered. Bhagwan was also wrong in his reply. And he was also wrong in asking devotees to sing this as part of the daily parayanam!

No,it is our understanding of what is stated that is wrong and has been pointed out,also referring to what Sri Bhagavan himself had said concerning people who lived near him and people who live faraway.
How the above statement exaggerates and  extrapolates it far beyond the Original context!Divine Will in operation,eh?

I will not go into further questions that you have raised(and have been raising over and over again) as I do not find anything of merit or of general value to others in the forum and are more towards challenging my capacity to understand spiritual dimension.As and when I come across anything that is of general value,I have commented on it and given relevant quotes of the Great ones,so that those who are in need of such knowledge benefit from it.They are not  to convince one who thinks he 'knows'(either through the so called 'Divine Will' or 'freewill').

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 08:40:38 AM by Ravi.N »

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2016, 09:28:44 AM »
Quote
I truly wonder whether you read my posts.I have already answered all your questions

I read your posts and also those of the other member. I can repeat all the questions that you have not bothered to reply, but I am moving on.

Quote
"No,it is our understanding of what is stated that is wrong and has been pointed out,also referring to what Sri Bhagavan himself had said concerning people who lived near him and people who live faraway.Also,how the above statement exaggerates and  extrapolates it far beyond the Original context!"

It is obvious who is extrapolating when there is a direct question and answer available on the subject. Sadly you will not quote the most direct question about those living within three yojanas mentioned in Arunachala Mahatmiyam.


Q: It is said that they get mukti unasked who live or die within a radius of 30 miles around Arunachala. It is also admitted that only by jnana is liberation obtained. The purana also remarks that Vedanat Vijnana is difficult to get. So mikti is difficult. But life or death round about the Hill bestows mukti so easily. How can it be?

Bhagawan: Siva says, 'By my command'. Those who live here need no initation, diksha etc. but get mukti. Such is the command of Siva.

I know Bhagawan's reply is very deflating to the free will, but it may still be worthwhile for someone to ask why there is no mention at all of being open, receptive etc etc in the reply. Only that it is the command of Siva.

Quote
"I find that either you do not understand or care to understand-mainly on account of some sentiments that you cherish and anything that seemingly contradicts it is unacceptable,not to mention the limitations of these sentiments (beliefs)."

Quote
"They are not  to convince one who thinks he 'knows'(either through the so called 'Divine Will' or 'freewill')."

Interesting statements. Over the past week here is a short list of your sentiments.

1. Arunachala Mahatmiyam  must be read and interpreted your way by adding certain constraints and qualifications that you have mentioned.

2. The world is unreal.

3. Free will is real.

4. Free will must permit divine will to act.

5. Many devotees who feel the divine will is acting at all times are .....ignorant, fundamentalist???

6. Divine will means sitting idle with no effort.

7. Divine will means devotees simply waiting for 'muhurtham' time by not acting or making effort.

8. Bhagawan's answers are only as you expected.

9. Even when an answer is given to Devaraja Mudaliar about trifling incidents in life such as drinking water or moving from one place in the room to another being predetermined, you find it absurd that visiting and eating pizza at McDonald's could be so.

10. There is nothing of merit you find in my questions and so you will not bother.


I must confess that it clearly comes across as 'one who knows everything' though it may not have been your intention. I posted on this topic since you raised a question that you may not even remember now. I will move on unless the Divine will determines otherwise.


Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2016, 09:42:31 AM »
Sadhak,
I have not revived this topic for the purpose of getting into an argument with you.They are meant for those who approached me.I also find that silentgreen has also tried to put in the  points concerning 'self effort' 'preordainment' 'Law of Karma' 'Grace'  and I am in entire agreement with all that he has posted.
You have your own view of these things-and I am okay with that.
Namaskar

silentgreen

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2016, 02:51:27 PM »
Without free will the theory of Karma does not stand. No karma will accumulate in the karmic account of the individual. There will be no prarabdha karma, because prarabdha is accumulated karma only.

There is no ego either, because ego sees it has a free will.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2016, 05:41:52 PM »
Friends,
Warmly recommend the following articles in Swami Venkatesananda's satsangh:

1.can I know God's will?

http://www.venkatesaya.com/441.satsang/satsang.php?p=02_17&menuid=2

2.As you sow,so shall it grow

http://www.venkatesaya.com/441.satsang/satsang.php?p=06_22&menuid=6

Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2016, 06:47:46 PM »
Would like to share my two pieces of thoughts without taking any sides.

I would just like to say that there is space for both stands and even third or fourth stands as well in our tradition!

There are no limitations how the grace can descend on one. Grace can come to one who exerts his free will diligently or carelessly and to one who has submitted to divine will or indulges in the name of divine will, and it can choose to come to one who is even devoid of both as well, the grace can come from top and fall on one's head even when unasked for! (Eg: Bhagawan never asked for)

Since there is no attainment in ultimate sense, this is just a play of the grace by itself for itself in order to experience a joy of attainment, a joy of submission, a joy of self exertion or any other way or  on the other hand in order to experience a joy of de-attainment, it experiences disappointment, failure of being unable to submit to divine will or our self exertion being of no avail.

Everything is joy!

One day in balcony a youngster who was reading some book about sanyasam was scolded by his father what he has to do with books on sanyasam and took that book and threw it down from the balcony, it fell upon a person walking to office who asked if he can take the book seeing the plight of the boy and the concern of the father. That person read the book and took sanyas the very next day. This is a real account and i think he is of Ramakriahna Order. Just a vague recollection. Wonderous ways by which grace can descend!

விதிமதி மூல விவேக மிலார்க்கே
விதிமதி வெல்லும் விவாதம் விதிமதிகட்
கோர்முதலாந் தன்னை யுணர்ந்தா ரவைதணந்தார்
சார்வரோ பின்னுமவை சாற்றுவாய் சார்பவை

The debate, ?Does free will prevail or fate?? is only for those who do not know the root of both. Those who have known the Self, the common source of free-will and of fate, have passed beyond them both and will not return to them.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

silentgreen

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2016, 07:21:41 PM »
Hi Nagraj,

Interesting example from real life.

But a curious mind can still enquire:
Why did the office-goer get interested in the book on sanyasa? Another person might not have been interested.

What was the content inside his mind that made him so interested in the book?

Was that content also one day thrown from the balcony for him to receive? Or did he practice something and built it inside.

Just some thoughts before republic day.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2016, 08:15:32 PM »
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
1.Different classes of perfect souls
"Some souls realize God without practising any spiritual discipline. They are called nityasiddha, eternally perfect. Those who have realized God through austerity, japa, and the like, are called sadhanasiddha, perfect through spiritual discipline. Again, there are those called kripasiddha, perfect through divine grace. These last may be compared to a room kept dark a thousand years, which becomes light the moment a lamp is brought in.
"There is also a class of devotees, the hathatsiddha, that is to say, those who have suddenly attained God-vision. Their case is like that of a poor boy who has suddenly found favour with a rich man. The rich man marries his daughter to the boy and along with her gives him land, house, carriage, servants, and so forth.
"There is still another class of devotees, the svapnasiddha, who have had the vision of God in a dream."
SURENDRA (smiling): "Let us go to sleep then. We shall wake and find ourselves babus, aristocrats."
MASTER (tenderly): "You are already a babu. When the letter 'a' is joined to the letter 'ka', 'ka' becomes 'kaa'. It is futile to add another 'a'. If you add it, you will still have the same 'kaa'. (All laugh.)

2.Tendencies from previous births
TUTOR: "Revered sir, one man quickly succeeds in spiritual life, and another doesn't succeed at all. How do you explain that?"
MASTER: "The truth is that a man succeeds to a great extent because of tendencies inherited from his previous births. People think he has attained the goal all of a sudden. A man drank a glass of wine in the morning. It made him completely drunk. He began to behave improperly. People were amazed to see that he could be so drunk after one glass. But another man said, 'Why, he has been drinking all night.'

Grace is ever blowing but what one makes out of it what counts.Sri Ramakrishna was a tough task master and even the so called 'Nityasiddhas' (classified by him) had to perform sustained and intense sadhana to own up what they were already privy to!
The basic thing  is this -Be it  in this world or in the spiritual realm,there is nothing like a 'Freelunch'.

The other key thing is -That one automatically attracts things that one deserves.Master TGN used to give the example that if one fills the lamp with oil and prepares the wick and lights it,the oxygen in the air need not be guided by one's effort-That will automatically be supplied.The wick does not attract the oxygen prior to getting lighted.

In any case,the point in reviving this thread is to understand the basic misconception about preordainment,that everything is already programmed and no degree of 'selfeffort' can alter what is already programmed.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 08:24:31 PM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2016, 08:49:28 PM »
Friends,
There is this interesting chapter-Outwitting the stars,chapter 16 of The Autobiography of a yogi which throws some insights on how prarabhda karma effects can be countered,etc.I am referring this only to say that through right exertion it can be countered(as swami vivekananda never tired of emphasizing).
Those interested may read it here:
http://autobiography-of-a-yogi.t.ebooks2ebooks.com/90.html

Namaskar

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2016, 10:17:59 PM »
Nagaraj,

Quote
I would just like to say that there is space for both stands and even third or fourth stands as well in our tradition!

There are no limitations how the grace can descend on one. Grace can come to one who exerts his free will diligently or carelessly and to one who has submitted to divine will or indulges in the name of divine will, and it can choose to come to one who is even devoid of both as well, the grace can come from top and fall on one's head even when unasked for! (Eg: Bhagawan never asked for)

Allow me to share my thoughts. You are correct that there can be no limitations on Grace/Self/Divine will or whatever you call it. No limitations means they are not restricted by time and space. It operates everywhere at all times. But that also means the other stands are incorrect (in an absolute sense) though it must be acknowledged that many take such stands and they do exist.

Like all acts of Nature, the Divine will operates on all including those who deny it. Just like the sunshine and rain fall over everyone without regard to 'good' and 'bad' people. But the ego/free will/ignorance has a very strong sense of judgement that refuses to go away easily. As the ego/free will weakens through impartial and objective observation, an idea of a higher power is slowly acknowledged intellectually. Complete surrender happens only with liberation (and vice versa). Grace is required every step of the way and it is found to be the case upon liberation.


Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2016, 10:37:33 PM »
Quote
But a curious mind can still enquire:
Why did the office-goer get interested in the book on sanyasa? Another person might not have been interested.

It could also be said that had another person been standing below, the book would not have fallen on him!



Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2016, 11:04:38 PM »
This topic, I do not see any end, as it is like straightening a dog's tail. Only purpose would be that the participants would eventually tire themselves and keep quiet :D

Just as for hunger some food is necessary, this play goes on. I see no purpose is served or achieved but only quietening of ones own mind.

Dear Sadhak,

I agree with your view too, like i agree with Silent green and Sri Ravi.

Allow me to share my thoughts. You are correct that there can be no limitations on Grace/Self/Divine will or whatever you call it. No limitations means they are not restricted by time and space. It operates everywhere at all times. But that also means the other stands are incorrect (in an absolute sense) though it must be acknowledged that many take such stands and they do exist.

you reflected as above, that in an absolute sense, that other stands are incorrect. But do any 'stands' even stand to exist in absolute sense? All stands remain only so long as the little self remain. Is it not?

Sri Aurobindo once quoted saying "It is an ego in man, that is shocked to find ego in others."

There are not 'other' stands in absolute, As Bhagavan has said "For a Jnani, everybody is a Jnani" In fact, he said, there is no Jnani but only 'Jnana'.

Is the Individual different from the Divine? Are there two selves? that the divine self guides some individual self?

though you have no free will (as the individual),
you still have freewill (because you are really the Atman)

though you have no destiny (as the Atman)
you still seem to have a predestiny/destiny
(as the individual subject to various limitations)

Whether one says Freewill or Divine will, they are one and the same, only the words are different, Free and Divine, but the Will is common in both!

A person remained silent though he was being criticised. When his friend wanted him to react, he replied, ?The same Atma is present in me as well as in the person who is criticising. So, why should I be annoyed when he is criticising himself?? A deep inquiry into the truth will reveal that when you love or hate others, you love or hate your own self. In fact, there are no ?others.? You consider yourself different from others because of body attachment. Once you give up body attachment, you will realise that there are no others and all are yours. That is the true vision of the Atma. The Atma does not have a specific form.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2016, 12:14:47 AM »
Quote
But do any 'stands' even stand to exist in absolute sense? All stands remain only so long as the little self remain. Is it not?

Nagaraj,
Yes, that is why I used the simple word incorrect instead of non-existence.

Quote
Whether one says Freewill or Divine will, they are one and the same, only the words are different,

Yes, in the absolute sense. When the ego/free will has ended, whatever remains can be called as Self/Divine will/Nameless/Freedom/Free will or anything else.


silentgreen

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2016, 06:11:07 AM »
This is good discussion although there has been some heated arguments. This is because Arunachala is Agni Lingam. Some of the heat also gets spread in the forum. This is but natural.

But there is also another part of  Arunachala, which is the silence of Ramana. Now the time has come for that. Sabda needs to be balanced by Stabdha.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2016, 07:32:24 AM »
Friends,
Quote
This is good discussion although there has been some heated arguments.
Quote
This topic, I do not see any end, as it is like straightening a dog's tail. Only purpose would be that the participants would eventually tire themselves and keep quiet

Ha ha.....No heat but only doggedness and intensity of purpose.

What is the purpose?It is to state that whether one is a so called worldly person or a so called spiritual aspirant,there is no substitute for manliness and self effort and one should not paralyse oneself by any dose of doctrine from anyone,be it Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Bhagavan or anyother.( Rest assured that there is no disrespect involved in this )

Instead of  being dismissive of the 'ego' as if it is some second or third person in oneself,better to own up and say 'I'.What difference does this make?
It is this,that it will not permit us to straddle two horses-the actual and the ideal.

We may next ask ourselves-what is it that 'I' truly want and find an honest reply to this question.This is very very important,for as Emerson said that 'nothing is atlast sacred but the integrity of your own mind'.This reality check has to be taken and honestly and unflinchingly answered.

We may get  responses ,a sort of general wish list that can be hierarchically organized with some sort of overlapping features:
1.Things to do with physical needs (Food,home,job,Health etc)
2.Things to do with relationships(marriage,children,friends,etc)
3.Things to do with comfort level(Electricity,Internet connection at home,car,etc,etc)
4.Things to do with Status/social acceptability and standing(Educational,official,familial,etc)
5.Things to do with entertainment/hobbies/aesthetic interests like arts,music,painting,etc
.........
.........
6.The quest for Truth -something ineffable and lasting;the thirst for completeness.

I have brought this up not to conduct a class of any sort but as an aid to introspection and to see where we stand and what best we can do to prioritize and put our house in order.

continued.....