Author Topic: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.  (Read 41072 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2016, 03:21:04 PM »
Friends,
Here is that excerpt from 'Day by Day with Bhagavan':

With reference to Bhagavan's answer to Mrs. Desai's question on the evening of 3-1-46, I asked him, "Are only important events in a man's life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts in his life, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one place in the room to another, also predetermined?"

Bhagavan: Yes, everything is predetermined.

I: Then what responsibility, what free will has man?

Bhagavan: What for then does the body come into existence? It is designed for doing the various things marked out for execution in this life. The whole programme is chalked out. அவனன்றி ஓரணுவும் அசையாது (Not an atom moves except by His Will) expresses the same truth, whether you say அவனன்றி  அசையாது (Does not move except by His Will) or கர்மமின்றி  அசையாது (Does not move except by karma). As for freedom for man, he is always free not to identify himself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasures or pains consequent on the body's activities.

What  Reply do we expect from Sri Bhagavan - when Sri Bhagavan always maintained that God(Self) alone is Real and the world is unreal and only an appearance?

Importantly Sri Bhagavan says clearly :அவனன்றி ஓரணுவும் அசையாது (Not an atom moves except by His Will) expresses the same truth, whether you say அவனன்றி  அசையாது (Does not move except by His Will) or கர்மமின்றி  அசையாது (Does not move except by karma).

In the world, the law of Karma operates and Karturagnyaya prapyatE palam and this law is what is preordained.This is misinterpreted by devotees to mean that even their eating Pizza in McDonalds for Lunch is predetermined!Or that their working for this 'IT firm' or 'that IT Firm' is predetermined and no matter what they do,they cannot switch jobs!They eventually do switch jobs and still believe in preordainment of this sort-That this switching is also preordainment.(I am not exaggerating here-these are some of the 'understandings' as shared by devotees)

This is how Sri Ramakrishna explains this:
There is fire in the hearth; therefore the rice and pulse and potatoes and the other vegetables jump about in the pot. They jump about as if to say: 'We are here! We are jumping!' This body is the pot. The mind and intelligence are the water. The objects of the senses are the rice, potatoes, and other vegetables. The 'I-consciousness' identified with the senses says, 'I am jumping about.' And Satchidananda is the fire.

The message here is that God alone is the Real doer-whatever is happening inside the pot is on account of Fire.This is not to say that the trajectory of each vegetable in the pot is predetermined.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 08:27:38 PM by Ravi.N »

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2016, 11:32:28 PM »
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The problem as I see is this-people just do not know what Divine Will is.They just have a conception that it is omnipotent and Omniscient and based on this evaluate everything else.

Forget divine will, do you know what free will is that you write about so much? How does it operate? How is it limited? Why is it limited? What causes its limitation etc etc? You can worry about what others say about things like divine will, omnipotent etc etc later.


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The Operation of the Divine Will  is something that cannot be  inferred from the happenings outside as to  whether the plan one  is executing is 'successful' or not.

You are barking up a wrong tree here. Success and failure are for your free will, not divine will. They are interpreted as such by the free will which feels elated at success and disappointed by failure that it has itself defined.


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That is due to the uncertainty in Life-There is nothing like a Certitude in Life

Where does this 'uncertainty' come from? If only free will exists and operates, who introduces uncertainty? Does it not occur to you that people may have called this uncertainty as an attribute of the divine will that is not bound by the desires of your free will?

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but that does not prevent us from carrying on with our activities.

This seems to be your perpetual mental block. Divine will does not mean no effort or that all our activities come to a complete halt.


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Also,it is quite likely that not being successful is also to one's eventual good.

What do we know about 'eventual good' when we don't even know the present, our free will can't even determine the present.

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The same(uncertainty) is not true for the life of the spirit-The Prayer(if it is true and genuine) meets with an immediate Response.

Very conveniently stated so that if there is no immediate response (a la speed post) you can dismiss it as not true and not genuine. Which means anybody who prays for two or more days is a fake since there was no immediate response after the first day.

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Without this communion with the Divine,it is futile to talk about 'Divine Will'

Oh, so everybody who talked to Bhagavan (and other jnanis) about divine will had no business to do so since they were not in 'communion' with the divine like Bhagavan (and other jnanis).

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2016, 12:09:38 AM »
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What  Reply do we expect from Sri Bhagavan


So you know all his answers in advance and they are all as you expected in advance.

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- when Sri Bhagavan always maintained that God(Self) alone is Real and the world is unreal and only an appearance?

Is this your (mis)understanding? Bhagavan got up every day at 3 am and cooked 'unreal' food for all the 'unreal' people every day. He answered questions from all the 'unreal' people who came to his 'unreal' ashram. Makes (un)real sense.

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Importantly Sri Bhagavan says clearly :அவனன்றி ஓரணுவும் அசையாது (Not an atom moves except by His Will) expresses the same truth, whether you say அவனன்றி  அசையாது (Does not move except by His Will) or கர்மமின்றி  அசையாது (Does not move except by karma).

He has also said that the law of karma is also an attribute of His Will.

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In the world,

Which world? You just said it was unreal.

 
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the law of Karma operates and Karturagnyaya prapyatE palam and this law is what is preordained.This is misinterpreted by devotees to mean that even their eating Pizza in McDonalds for Lunch is predetermined!

No when I eat pizza at McDonalds, it is exempted. Only when Devaraja Mudaliar drinks water it is pre-determined.


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Or that their working for this 'IT firm' or 'that IT Firm' is predetermined and no matter what they do,they cannot switch jobs!They eventually do switch jobs and still believe in preordainment of this sort-That this switching is also preordainment.(I am not exaggerating here-these are some of the 'understandings' as shared by devotees)

Good for those devotees. They seem to have a far better understanding though some may mock them.

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2016, 12:35:47 AM »
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This is a wrong question or statement. Things are not pre-ordained like a computer algorithm.

Yes, not for the divine will.


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The Divine is beyond time and space. He wills and Creation happens. He wills and Dissolution happens.


Yes, must be so logically.


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He wills and divides Himself like individual beings with limited consciousness of ego.

.....who all think they are in control of themselves all the time with their own free will. The stronger the ego, the stronger is the belief that their free will can determine everything.


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An individual who finds himself limited will call the free will as individual free will.

More likely that one who has not suffered (limitation) and started to question suffering will think that everything is free will and there is no divine will.

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The same individual after realizing Brahman will call the free will as Divine free will.

The most plausible explanation is that the idea of unrestrained free will has disappeared after realization, only the divine will remains. But it is not necessary to be self realized in order to observe the limitations of the so called free will, and that there is some higher power operating whether it is called divine will or anything else.




Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2016, 07:24:41 AM »
Sadhak,
Ha ha...Divine will in operation!I appreciate that this is quite in line with what you said earlier:

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obviously I have failed to communicate with you (which must be the way it has been ordained by the divine will). The divine will will continue to run its course!

and it also confirms this statement of yours:

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1. "If he has surrendered to God or to Guru the Power to which he has surrendered will take him on the right course. The worker need no longer concern himself about the rectitude or otherwise of the course."

2. "The Divine Will prevails at all times and under all circumstances. The individuals cannot act of their own accord. Recognize the force of the Divine Will and keep quiet."

The above statements of Bhagawan are clear enough.

Now how do I respond to this Divine Will in operation?Let me start off by taking the advice that this 'Divine Will' has given me:

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A strongly active, judgmental intellect far far removed from divine will and surrender.

There are basically two ways of approaching the problem and for both of these approaches, the issue of Freewill(refers to the limited intelligence and will that any person not even aware of the  term  makes use of-and not to be misconstrued as 'Will that is Free' ) vs Preordainment is a total nonissue.

Almost all the points that you have raised or misunderstood is on account of not being able to understand the term 'freewill','selfeffort',etc. and without understanding  taking them on as if they imply 'self-sufficiency' . I have already clarified that self effort is necessary but not sufficient in itself.I have also clarified that this one step on the part of 'self effort' will ensure ten steps of the Divine towards it and in this way fulfill any true aspiration.

Now there are as I said two approaches and I will just quote from Sri Bhagavan and Sri Ramakrishna(generally I just quote and leave it to the seeker to get the Truth himself and I still consider this the best option):

1.Talk 615.
Another from the group asked: How is the ego to be destroyed?
M.: (Take)Hold(of) the ego first and then ask how it is to be destroyed(The Tamil version is clearer-What Sri Bhagavan is meaning is that the ego does not exist so that it can be taken hold of and destroyed-Ravi). Who asks this question? It is the ego. Can the ego ever agree to kill itself? This question is a sure way to cherish the ego and not to kill it. If you seek the ego you will find it does not exist. That is the way to destroy it.
In this connection I am often reminded of a funny incident which took place when I was living in the West Chitrai Street in Madura. A neighbour in an adjoining house anticipated the visit of a thief to his house. He took precautions to catch him. He posted policemen in mufti to guard the two ends of the lane, the entrance and the back-door to his own house. The thief came as expected and the men rushed to catch him. He took in the situation at a glance and shouted ?Hold him, hold him. There - he runs - there - there.? Saying so he made good his escape. So it is with the ego. Look for it and it will not be found. That is the way to get rid of it.

2.An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Can you weep for Him with intense longing of heart? Men shed a jugful of tears for the sake of their children, for their wives, or for money. But who weeps for God?
So long as the child remains engrossed with its toys, the mother looks after her cooking and other household duties. But when the child no longer relishes the toys, it throws them aside and yells for its mother. Then the mother takes the rice-pot down from the hearth, runs in haste, and takes the child in her arms."

In both these approaches,there is simply no need to invent a word called 'Divine Will' and believe that :
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Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.

Let me share my understanding of the so called 'Divine Will'-It is this-that the Divine does not have any Will as it is imagined by a human mind(omniscient,omnipotent,etc,etc)I am just posting this so that you may have a chance to pick on this, as otherwise you may not be able to pick on  Sri Bhagavan's or Sri Ramakrishna's saying.

The so called Divine Will just says Tathastu - तथास्तु(so be it) to almost everything that we intensely wish.I shall post a parable from the tales and parables of Sri Ramakrishna on this तथास्तु aspect.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:29:05 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2016, 07:54:15 AM »
THE TIGER THAT LURKS BEHIND WORLDLY JOYS

God is like the wish-yielding tree of the celestial world (Kalpataru), which gives whatever one asks of it. So, one should be careful to give up all worldly desires when one's mind has been purified by religious exercises.
Just listen to a story: A certain traveller came to a large plain in the course of his travels. As he had been walking in the sun for many hours, he was thoroughly exhausted and heavily perspiring; so he sat down in the shade of a tree to rest a little. Presently he began to think what a comfort it would be if he could but get a soft bed there to
sleep on. He was not aware that he was sitting under the celestial tree. As soon as the above thought rose in his mind, he found a nice bed by his side. He felt much astonished, but all the same stretched himself on it. Now he thought to himself, how pleasant it would be, were a young damsel to come there and gently stroke his legs. No sooner did the thought arise in his mind than he found a young damsel sitting at his feet and stroking his legs. The traveller felt supremely happy. Presently he felt hungry and thought: "I have got whatever I have wished for; could I not then get some food?"Instantly he found various kinds of delicious food spread before him. He at once fell to eating, and having helped himself to his heart's content, stretched himself again on his bed. He now began to revolve in his mind the events of the day. While thus occupied, he thought: "If a tiger should attack me all of a sudden!" In an instant a large tiger jumped on him and broke his neck and began to drink his blood. In this way the traveller lost his life.
Such is the fate of men in general. If during your meditation you pray for men or money or worldly honours, your desires will no doubt be satisfied to some extent; but, mind you, there is the dread of the tiger behind the gifts you get. Those tigers- disease, bereavements, loss of honour and wealth etc.,-are a thousand times more terrible than the live tiger.

Tales and parables of Sri Ramakrishna
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:12:36 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2016, 08:01:36 AM »
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna which has a direct reference to 'Tiger' in the tales and parables  features:

ACTOR: "Revered sir, what you have just said about enjoyment is very true. One ultimately courts disaster if one prays to God for enjoyment. Various desires come to the
mind and by no means all of them are good. God is the Kalpataru, the Wish-fulfilling Tree.A man gets whatever he asks of God. Suppose it comes to his mind: 'God is the Kalpataru. Well, let me see if a tiger will appear before me.' Because he thinks of the tiger, it really appears and devours him."

MASTER: "Yes, you must remember that the tiger comes. What more shall I tell you? Keep your mind on God. Don't forget Him. God will certainly reveal Himself to you if you
pray to Him with sincerity. Another thing. Sing the name of God at the end of each performance. Then the actors, the singers, and the audience will go home with the thought
of God in their minds."


silentgreen

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AM »
Nice discussions, nice stories and nice debates arising out of free will. No time to participate further.

Here free will is not meant opposite of divine will but opposite of "pre-programmed will". Actions can spring out, out of freedom of choice without necessarily directed by a program. This is because freedom is the essence of the soul. When that freedom is exerted within the framework of ego, there is control based on laws of Karma. Here the divine gives only the power and sort of consents with the individual choice for the time-being till laws of Karma takes effect and good sense prevails on the individual to turn to God.

Once the individual discovers the expansion of the blissful being outside the periphery of the ego-sense and works just to experience the blissful being in a deeper sense, then karma does not bind anymore. The journey is from freedom to freedom and tough,because it needs to be integrated with intermediate goals of worldly life.

Sitting idle and waiting for God for everything may not be a good lifestyle unless the mind is greatly turned towards God. Else it can lead to Tamas. Shakti is required to flow to clear many blocks inside.

If one holds the view that there is no doer, so self-effort cases are invalid, life will take the necessary tests for proof.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2016, 01:20:52 PM »
Friends,

I thought that deliberating on one of the statements made by our friend Sadhak is worth pondering:

In response to silentgreen's statement:
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An individual who finds himself limited will call the free will as individual free will.
,our friend has remarked:

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More likely that one who has not suffered (limitation) and started to question suffering will think that everything is free will and there is no divine will.

No individual would think he is unlimited , not suffered at all -unless he is out of his senses(in our usual sense of the term) or has dropped his individuality attaining Jnana.

We are talking about seekers and not about madcaps or jnanis.This much should have been understood by one and all ,including our friend sadhak.

How many categories of devotees are there?Lord Sri Krishna says in The Gita:

catur-vidhā bhajante māḿ
janāḥ su-kṛtino ?rjuna
ārto jij?āsur arthārthī
j?ānī ca bharatarṣabha

Sri Aurobindo describes them: "There are those who turn to him as a refuge from sorrow and suffering in the world, arta. There are those who seek him as the giver of good in the world, artharthi. There are those who come to him in the desire for knowledge, jijnasu. And lastly there are those who adore him with knowledge, jnani."

The JijnAsu is the Highest form of seeker as compared to the Arti and arthArthi,leaving aside the jnAni who is not a seeker.

This is a very important classification as to how sanatana Dharma is fundamentally different than other schools that keep harping on suffering and Fear and understanding of them as a means to liberation.(Most of JK's talks keep revolving around 'suffering' or 'sorrow' or 'fear' and the ending of this,how the thinker cannot end it,etc,In the end he is supposed to have remarked:How is it that nobody got it? and our friend sadhak is also asking in a similiar tone).

In sharp contrast is the vigorous message of the Upanishads:

We see how in the Kathopanishad Nachiketas goes to Yama without being called and how he demands for the knowledge supreme-There is no Fear or Sorrow involved in this seeking to know the Truth,just the pure quest for Truth.What is it that is unlimited?

We see in the Mundaka upanishad how the seeker asks this question:कस्मिन्नु भगवो विज्ञाते सर्वमिदं विज्ञातं भवतीति ॥ ३ ॥ Sir, what is that through which, if it is known, everything else becomes known?

This is the spirit of the upanishads and as Swami Vivekananda never tires of saying:

Strength, strength is what the Upanishads speak to me from every page. This is the one great thing to remember, it has been the one great lesson I have been taught in my life; strength, it says, strength, O man, be not weak. Are there no human weaknesses? ? says man. There are, say the Upanishads, but will more weakness heal them, would you try to wash dirt with dirt? Will sin cure sin, weakness cure weakness? Strength, O man, strength, say the Upanishads, stand up and be strong. Ay, it is the only literature in the world where you find the word "Abhih", "fearless", used again and again; in no other scripture in the world is this adjective applied either to God or to man. Abhih, fearless!

A true devotee is this sort of a JijnAsu and not someone who cringes and whines.I warmly recommend this wonderful talk of Swamiji:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_3/Lectures_from_Colombo_to_Almora/Vedanta_in_its_Application_to_Indian_Life

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 01:23:41 PM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2016, 02:36:32 PM »
silentgreen,
Good response.
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Sitting idle and waiting for God for everything may not be a good lifestyle unless the mind is greatly turned towards God.
I agree with you that there is every likelihood that it may descend to 'sitting idle' and tamasic surrender,as much as the counterpoint would say 'self effort' would lead to a bloated ego and fattening of ignorance.I tend to favour the risk of a bloated ego (Rajas) as compared to the bigger risk of a 'Tamasic Surrender'.

He has been saying that abiding by the Divine Will does not tantamount to "sitting idle" and that whatever needs to be done will anyway get done by the Divine Will(I am Paraphrasing.)

This abidance would be the state of the Jnani and not that of the seeker,for one who realizes that he is not the 'doer' is a JnAni.

I will just bring into sharp focus two of the key statements he has made:
1.
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So someone who is a bit serious realizes that whether he acts or does not act, it is all due to the operation of divine will. May be such a person could be called a sadhak
.
2.
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Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.

Our basic question with regards to (1) :
Is it Faith or Realization?If it is Realization,then such a one is a jnAni and we are not discussing the jnAni's position in this thread.
If it is Faith it is on par with another seeker who has Faith that The Divine would definitely respond to his Prayer.It is only the intensity of faith that would count in either case.

As regards (2),it just expresses Faith that 'Only The Divine removes the Ignorance'(I have paraphrased it for making better sense) and this is no better than someone else who may say -"Assuredly the Divine will remove the Ignorance if only I call on him wholeheartedly".

Our Friend Sadhak seems to think by avoiding Reference to 'I do' or 'My Effort' and calling it 'Divine Will' would make a fundamental difference.The Basic premise is this-Selfishness or egoistic outlook is a stumbling block and any reference to 'I' must be dropped.

The response to this is like What Sri Ramakrishna so wonderfully points out:
The 'ego of a devotee' begets no pride; it does not create ignorance. On the contrary it helps one realize God. This ego is no more like the ordinary ego than hinche is like ordinary greens. One generally becomes indisposed by eating greens; but hinche removes excessive bile; it does one good. Sugar candy is not like ordinary sweets. Sweets are generally harmful, but sugar candy removes acidity.

Namaskar

silentgreen

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2016, 07:17:27 PM »
Self-effort does not mean that a person does not have faith in God or is egoistic.

The post of Nagraj where Hanuman carries the Sanjivani hill illustrates this point. It is a sad incident about Graham. But Nagraj has thrown some other light.

Hanuman is exerting himself and carrying the Giri taking the name of Raam. Here self-effort is devotional effort which frees one from worldly bondage.

The actual Sanjivani plant is the outer Sanjivani. Hanuman carrying the Giri taking the name of Raam is the inner Sanjivani created by self-effort.

When the inner Sanjivani accumulates within oneself by long spiritual practice, it can heal one from within in times of distress.

May that happen with Graham. Incidentally
(G)iri (H)anuman and Raam together forms Graham.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2016, 01:03:22 AM »
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Sitting idle and waiting for God for everything may not be a good lifestyle unless the mind is greatly turned towards God.

Beware, this is a slippery slope. Don't ASSUME a person can remain idle simply by taking a vow (with his 'free will') or proclaiming 'I am going to sit idle  and wait for God'.  The Divine will is fully capable of kicking him in the rump (figuratively speaking) and make him sweat.

Even Bhagawan  was made to come to Arunachala after his death experience. Imagine the fate of lesser mortals.

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2016, 01:25:22 AM »
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As regards (2),it just expresses Faith that 'Only The Divine removes the Ignorance'(I have paraphrased it for making better sense) and this is no better than someone else who may say -"Assuredly the Divine will remove the Ignorance if only I call on him wholeheartedly".

Our Friend Sadhak seems to think by avoiding Reference to 'I do' or 'My Effort' and calling it 'Divine Will' would make a fundamental difference.

Again, you misunderstand and your paraphrase is incorrect. We are not talking about cleverly avoiding this or that reference. That is still the ego/free will. But the emphasis in " if only I call on him wholeheartedly", is on the I. The world is full of such effort makers. Even ISIS has them. Fasting, starving, even killing in the name of God. They are also believers in 'free will' and are calling God 'wholeheartedly' in order to meet him in paradise.

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2016, 01:50:26 AM »
Silentgreen,

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Self-effort does not mean that a person does not have faith in God or is egoistic.

No, not necessarily but it depends on what we mean by Self effort. If it is a 'sadhaka', such a person would also know it is the divine will making him do things and drawing him. But for most, 'self effort' means strong individuality and nothing else.

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2016, 02:43:18 AM »
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Ha ha...Divine will in operation!


Though I had asked answers for simple questions to your 'free will'. None is forth coming. Never mind.

"Once about Arunachala Mahatmiam when he was asked about the passage regarding how people living within a certain distance of Arunachala are initiated without 'diksha', he simply replied that it was because it was so ordained. "

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So,it is clear that not all people who live near Arunachala (in physical proximity) derive the benefit as per Arunachala Mahatmiam's statement.This clearly shows that only those who are RECEPTIVE and OPEN partake of the Grace which is ever present.

I see. So Arunachala Mahatmiam is wrong since it has failed to add these important conditions that you have discovered. Bhagwan was also wrong in his reply. And he was also wrong in asking devotees to sing this as part of the daily parayanam!   


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"Almost all the points that you have raised or misunderstood is on account of not being able to understand the term 'freewill'"

Another member has succinctly elucidated three possibilities and you may want to read my reply to those 3 possibilities if it helps you understand.


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"I have already clarified that self effort is necessary but not sufficient in itself."

But you keep repeating the stuff about self effort deciding 'I will not do anything' and sit idle making no effort. If self effort is not sufficient, then it will not be successful with such vows either. Something I have pointed out many times.

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"I have also clarified that this one step on the part of 'self effort' will ensure ten steps of the Divine towards it and in this way fulfill any true aspiration."

Guarantees, based on your exp... . So 'self effort' is the more powerful force that will demand and make the divine will move 10 steps for every step. But wait, just above you said self effort is not sufficient.... May be that is why most people have not received an immediate response to their efforts that you promised yesterday.

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"Let me share my understanding of the so called 'Divine Will'-It is this-that the Divine does not have any Will as it is imagined by a human mind(omniscient,omnipotent,etc,etc)"

Why do you bother about what is imagined by a human mind?  Your understanding is all that matters. And if the divine will is not omniscient then it must be limited. Probably limited to only Tiruvannamalai district!


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"No individual would think he is unlimited , not suffered at all -unless he is out of his senses(in our usual sense of the term) or has dropped his individuality attaining Jnana."

Typical misunderstanding. If you took some time and read my post it says "More likely that one who has not suffered (limitation) AND started to question suffering".  You missed the AND. Of course, you will now start 'how to question suffering?'.