Author Topic: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.  (Read 40407 times)

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2016, 10:20:57 PM »
"Is the Divine Will waiting for some 'muhurtam' (auspicious) time to remove the so called ignorance?".

Yes, you can call it muhurtam, raghu kalam, or anything else. It does not matter. But it is entirely in the hands of the Divine will. You may want to read Bhagawan's answers to similar questions. Once about Arunachala Mahatmiam when he was asked about the passage regarding how people living within a certain distance of Arunachala are initiated without 'diksha', he simply replied that it was because it was so ordained.

You have at least said the 'so called' ignorance'.  For it is not the divine will that appears daily and announces you are ignorant.

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2016, 10:47:23 PM »
"Instead of thinking that it does not matter whether you do or not do anything,you must give up all these thoughts and surrender-and then see if the Ignorance persists."

Again you misunderstand. It is not you doing but the divine will that makes you do or not do anything. No amount of chest beating that 'I am doing' or 'I will not do' can change that.


"கீழ்மே லெங்குங் கிளரொளி மணியென்
         கீழ்மையைப் பாழ்செய் யருணாசலா.     

 O Arunachala, Gem of light which shines everywhere, both in the low and in the high,
       destroy my lowness(my base and impure nature)."


Exactly. No mention of 'my effort', 'my removing my impurities by doing this or that', or anything of the kind. Just the simple truth that it is only the Divine will that can bring it about.   You will find this theme throughout all the 108 verses.

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2016, 11:04:40 PM »
Sadhak,

Quote
Once about Arunachala Mahatmiam when he was asked about the passage regarding how people living within a certain distance of Arunachala are initiated without 'diksha', he simply replied that it was because it was so ordained.

All these are temporal replies and are to be taken as such-There is no 'why' or 'How' regarding these matters for that is how it is.How else to reply?

They do not in anyway even remotely support the statement:
Quote
Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.

You also need to recall Sri Bhagavan's statement that how people from afar get the Truth whereas people in close proximity miss it-when he referred to how bees from afar sip the honey of the Lotus flower in the pond whereas the Frogs in the pond are satisfied with the muck(Paraphrased by me).So,it is clear that not all people who live near Arunachala (in physical proximity) derive the benefit as per Arunachala Mahatmiam's statement.This clearly shows that only those who are RECEPTIVE and OPEN partake of the Grace which is ever present.

Anyway if you believe that you need to wait for the Divine Will to remove ignorance ....well ,who am I to contradict you?It is between you and the Divine Will you believe in.
Om Tat Sat.

p.s:Just happen to see your fresh post-
Quote
Exactly.No mention of 'my effort', 'my removing my impurities by doing this or that', or anything of the kind.
What do you mean by 'Effort'-is it like Lifting 50 Kg or what?No.This very earning and Prayer is also effort.It means that you have to have this intense longing and not just 'keep quiet' expecting the so called Divine Will to remove the ignorance.Period.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2016, 11:18:07 PM »
Sadhak,
I have covered all the objections that you keep raising from time to time in my previous posts and I have been mentioning it over and over again in the hope that you may go through the same calmly.
My objective here is not to prove that I am Right or that you are wrong.
The Basic thing that I have wished to convey is this-If there is earnestness ,there is nothing stopping one from Realizing one's Birthright,be it Divine Will or Devil's Will or any other.
This is why the upanishads give this clear clarion call:
Uthishtatha Jagratha Prapya Varaan Nibodhatha
This is also Sri Bhagavan's central message -you are already the Self.Reclaim it here and now.
Namaskar

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2016, 11:21:40 PM »
"All these are temporal replies and are to be taken as such-There is no 'why' or 'How' regarding these matters for that is how it is.How else to reply?".

This could be your (mis)interpretation about how Bhagawan's statements have to be understood.

They do not in anyway even remotely support the statement:
Quote
Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.".

Again that is your (mis)understanding. There are 108 verses of Akshara Mana Malai. Most of them only imploring the Divine will. Not one that speaks of one's individual effort or gaining individual merit. Of course, you may call it coincidence or anything else. So be it.



Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2016, 11:36:35 PM »
Sadhak,

For your reference,sharing excerpts from the posts again:

Quote
Importantly when we have the conviction  that through Self Effort(purushakara) we can overcome destiny,it already has the Divine Force behind it and this needs to be recognized and never forgotten.

Quote from Sri Aurobindo posted earlier:
Quote
The personal will of the Sadhaka has first to seize on the egoistic energies and turn them towards the light and the right; once turned, he has still to train them to recognise that always, always to accept, always to follow that. Progressing, he learns, still using the personal will, personal effort, personal energies, to employ them as representatives of the higher Power and in conscious obedience to the higher Influence. Progressing yet farther, his will, effort, energy become no longer personal and separate, but activities of that higher Power and Influence at work in the individual. But there is still a sort of gulf of distance which necessitates an obscure process of transit, not always accurate, sometimes even very distorting, between the divine Origin and the emerging human current. At the end of the progress, with the progressive disappearance of egoism and impurity and ignorance, this last separation is removed; all in the individual becomes the divine working.

I am through with my discussion here and have nothing more to add.

Namaskar

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2016, 11:46:38 PM »
"I have covered all the objections that you keep raising from time to time in my previous posts and I have been mentioning it over and over again in the hope that you may go through the same calmly."

You may indeed feel that way, but you have not even addressed the basic operation of the Divine will. All your posts only claim that the Divine Will is a weak, restricted phenomenon that is/can be easily blocked by an individual ego.


"My objective here is not to prove that I am Right or that you are wrong."

I understand. My posts are only to point out that your conception of the Divine will is entirely different from that of Bhagwan or indeed even the Bible. The Lords Prayer says 'Thy Will be done, on earth and in Heaven.' There is no moment when the Divine will does not or cannot operate.

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2016, 07:35:16 AM »
Sadhak,
you seem to have totally misunderstood this statement of mine:

Quote
As long as the individual exists,the Divine Will permits the 'Freewill' and is limited by the 'Freewill' so exercised.The 'Freewill' still needs to be exercised in terms of continued Effort to ensure that nothing comes to detract from it."

you are (mis)construing this as:
Quote
All your posts only claim that the Divine Will is a weak, restricted phenomenon that is/can be easily blocked by an individual ego.

I have also quoted Sri Aurobindo on this but perhaps you are more likely to see it  objectively if you hear the same from Sri Bhagavan.Please refer to Talk no.28(again,I have to say that the English version is truly poor compared to the clarity in Tamizh).I am posting an excerpt and you may read the complete talk if you wish:

D.: If ?I? also be an illusion, who then casts off the illusion?
M.: The ?I? casts off the illusion of ?I? and yet remains as ?I?. Such is the paradox of Self-Realisation. The realised do not see any contradiction in it. Take the case of bhakti - I approach Iswara and pray to be absorbed in Him. I then surrender myself in faith and by concentration. What remains afterwards? In place of the original ?I?, perfect self-surrender leaves a residuum of God in which the ?I? is lost. This is the highest form of devotion (parabhakti), prapatti, surrender or the height of vairagya.
You give up this and that of ?my? possessions. If you give up ?I? and ?Mine? instead, all are given up at a stroke. The very seed of possession is lost. Thus the evil is nipped in the bud or crushed in the germ itself. Dispassion (vairagya) must be very strong to do this. Eagerness to do it must be equal to that of a man kept under water trying to rise up to the surface for his life.
D.: Cannot this trouble and difficulty be lessened with the aid of a Master or an Ishta Devata (God chosen for worship)? Cannot they give the power to see our Self as it is - to change us into themselves - to take us into Self-Realisation?
M.: Ishta Devata and Guru are aids - very powerful aids on this path. But an aid to be effective requires your effort also. Your effort is a sine qua non. It is you who should see the sun. Can spectacles and the sun see for you? You yourself have to see your true nature. Not much aid is required for doing it!

D.: What is the relation between my free-will and the overwhelming might of the Omnipotent?
(a) Is omniscience of God consistent with ego?s freewill?
(b) Is omnipotence of God consistent with ego?s freewill?
(c) Are the natural laws consistent with God?s free-will?
M.: Yes. Free-will is the present appearing to a limited faculty of sight and will. The same ego sees its past activity as falling into a course of ?law? or rules - its own free-will being one of the links in that course of law.
Omnipotence and omniscience of God are then seen by the ego to have acted through the appearance of his own free-will. So he comes to the conclusion that the ego must go by appearances. Natural laws are manifestations of God?s will and they have been laid down.
(The Tamil version says:One may then feel that the Omniscience and omnipotence have acted through freewill.)

This is exactly what I have said.This is what Jesus says:"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you"

Hope we are not expecting the Omnipotent,Omniscient Divine Will to force itself upon anyone who does not want it in order to prove its Omnipotence.

In yet another sense,we may say as Papa Ramdas said-Man is God playing the Fool.So,why doubt whether man can exercise the power of God in him to cast off the 'Fool'.

If you are not from a Christian background,I would like to avoid bringing in that element(There is enough to chew already).If on the other hand you are indeed from a Christian background(or were from one),then perhaps we may consider taking in the references from the Bible.

I suppose you are not now expecting a Treatise on Iccha sakti,Kriya Sakthi and Jnana Sakthi or on Srishti-Drishti Vada,Drishti-Srishti Vada and AjAta Vada to elaborate on the working of the Divine Will.

It is enough to see it in operation in ourselves and experience it directly instead of having to plod through all that.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 07:47:01 AM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2016, 10:09:47 AM »
Our scriptures have revealed this beautiful concept::

1 Markata (monkey) Kishora Nyaya
2 Maarjaala (cat) Kishora Nyaya

This is beautifully explained by our Master:

Illustration of monkey and kitten

"It is no doubt necessary to practise spiritual discipline; but there are two kinds of aspirants.  The nature of the one kind is like that of the young monkey, and the nature of the other kind is like that of the kitten.  The young monkey, with great exertion, somehow clings to its mother.  Likewise, there are some aspirants who think that in order to realize God they must repeat His name a certain number of times, meditate on Him for a certain period, and practise a certain amount of austerity.  An aspirant of this kind makes his own efforts to catch hold of God.  But the kitten, of itself, cannot cling to its mother.  It lies on the ground and cries, 'Mew, mew!' It leaves everything to its mother.  The mother cat sometimes puts it on a bed, sometimes on the roof behind a pile of wood.  She carries the kitten in her mouth hither and thither.  The kitten doesn't know how to cling to the mother.  Likewise, there are some aspirants who cannot practise spiritual discipline by calculating about japa or the period of meditation.  All that they do is cry to God with yearning hearts.  God hears their cry and cannot keep Himself away.  He reveals Himself to them."
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2016, 10:24:37 AM »
Nagaraj,
Thanks very much for that wonderful excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
Fortunately the kitten did not think that it does not matter whether I mew or not.I will get milk only as ordained by the Mother :-)
Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2016, 10:37:25 AM »
Also the same is echoed by our Bhagawan:

One  of  two  things must  be  done.  Either  surrender  because  you  admit  your  inability and also require a High Power to help you; or investigate into the cause  of  misery,  go  into  the  source  and  merge  into  the  Self.  Either way  you  will  be  free  from  misery.  God  never  forsakes  one  who has surrendered.  Mamekam saranam vraja.

(Talks)
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2016, 11:01:50 AM »
Thanks Nagaraj.I was looking up for verses 5 and 7 from Nava Mani malai to post here.They are so wonderful in Tamizh but not readily available for posting.I shall key in  the verses in Tamizh and post.
Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2016, 11:18:58 AM »
Sri Ravi, you will the tamil verses from this site:

sriramana.org

சீரான சோணகிரி சிறக்க வாழுஞ்
சிற்சொருப னாமிறையே சிறிய னேன்றன்
பேரான பிழையெல்லாம் பொறுத்துக்
காத்துப்
பின்னுமிவன் பாழிதனில் வீழா வண்ணங்
காரான கருணைவிழி கொடுப்பா யின்றேற்
கடும்பவத்தி னின்றுகரை யேற மாட்டே
னேரான துண்டோதாய் சிசுவுக் காற்று
நிகரற்ற நலனுக்கு நிகழ்த்து வாயே.

பொருள்:
அருணாசலம் எனப் புகழுடன் சிறந்து விளங்கும், ஞானவடிவாகிய பரமேச்வரனே! சிறியவனாகிய நான் செய்த பெரும் பிழைகளைப் பொருட்படுத்தாது, என்னை ரக்ஷித்து, அஞ்ஞானமய உலக பந்தங்களில் நான் வீழ்ந்து மாய்ந்து போகாவண்ணம், மேகம் போன்று வர்ஷிக்கும் உன் கருணை கடாக்ஷத்தை அருள்வாயாக. இல்லாவிடில் கொடிய பிறவி எனும் துன்பக் கடலிலிருந்து மீண்டு முக்திக் கரையை நான் அடைய மாட்டேன். ஒருதாய் தன் குழந்தைக்குச் செய்யும் நிகரில்லாத நன்மைகளைப் போன்று நீயும் எனக்கு அருள்வாயாக.

அண்ணா மலையா யடியேனை
யாண்ட வன்றே யாவியுடற்
கொண்டா யெனக்கோர் குறையுண்டோ
குறையுங் குணமு நீயல்லா
லெண்ணே னிவற்றை யென்னுயிரே
யெண்ண மெதுவோ வதுசெய்வாய்
கண்ணே யுன்றன் கழலிணையிற்
காதற் பெருக்கே தருவாயே.

பொருள்:
அண்ணாமலையானே! அடியவனாகிய என்னை என்று நீ ஆட்கொண்டாயோ அன்றே, எனது உயிரையும் உடலையும்* அடிமையாக்கிக் கொண்டாய். எனக்கு இனி ஒரு குறையும் இருக்க முடியுமோ? உன்னை அன்றி குணங்களையும் குறைகளையும் சிந்திக்க மாட்டேன். என் உயிருக்கும் உயிரே! உனக்குப் பிரியமானது எதுவோ அதையே நீ எனக்கு செய்தருள்வாய். கண்ணுக்கும் கண்ணான தெய்வமே! உனது திருவடித் தாமரைகளில் பக்திப் பெருக்கைத் தந்து அருள்வாயாக.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2016, 11:29:01 AM »
Nagaraj,
Thanks very much.Wonder why the site is not available-It says 'Under Construction'.
Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2016, 07:10:16 PM »
Since a fire has been kindled with regard to this topic, some more musings are coming out prompting me to lay it out.

I was remembered of a speech by Sri Sringeri Acaryal Sri Bharati Theertha Swamigal in his Vijaya Yatra across south India, where in one of his talks he stressed the importance of Manushya Prayatna and Daiva Anugraha, both complement each other. He went on to quote an beautiful illustration, which i vaguely remember. The word he used was "Prerana" which means 'urge' or 'inspiration' from the heart, which comes within the deep recess of our heart to do something.

Moreover, in Kathopanishad, we have

यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यः
तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूँ स्वाम् ॥

"He whom the Self chooses,
by him the Self can be gained"

The spirit of it is that, the seeker has to seek That and inturn That begins to seek you. Like the divine lovers, as you seek Her, She begins to seek you.

I request to read Letters No 109. Link provided below:

http://suri-nagamma.blogspot.in/2007/07/letter-109.html

It is important to move with the wind, Bhagavan said be as you are, go as the grace takes you. irundapadiye iru, iraivan Arul selutum vazhiye sel.

The Vedas say

Aano bhadra krtavo yantu vishwatah
"Let noble thoughts come to me from all directions?

I conclude with this.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta