Author Topic: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.  (Read 38652 times)

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2016, 09:38:00 AM »
"I gather that my posts did not make any sense to you.Please ignore it.".

They certainly don't. And unfortunately it seems you did not understand my reply.

Let us leave it there.


Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2016, 01:51:57 PM »
Sadhak,

Quote
They certainly don't. And unfortunately it seems you did not understand my reply.

If everything happens by Divine Will,where is the question of 'Unfortnately'?We just see it differently and we are okay with it.
The most important thing is whether you are convinced about your position.If yes,Godspeed to you.Whatever Sadhana you are pursuing,may it bring you to Truth or God.
Wishing you the very Best.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 09:35:58 PM by Ravi.N »

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2016, 08:21:01 PM »
"If everything happens by Divine Will,where is the question of 'Unfortnately'?"

 'if everything happens by Divine Will'. That means one is even unsure about the operation of Divine will.

'Necessary steps', 'sufficient', 'wise', 'sadhak', 'ordinary man' etc etc are all the outcome of a strongly active, judgmental intellect far far removed from divine will and surrender.

The divine will made me experience this incident as unfortunate. Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.


Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2016, 09:18:06 PM »
Sadhak,
Quote
Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.

You may like to check this thread and see if you find anything helpful.Please ignore whatever you find unacceptable:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=8446.0

Namaskar

« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 09:40:42 PM by Ravi.N »

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2016, 11:07:11 PM »
1. "If he has surrendered to God or to Guru the Power to which he has surrendered will take him on the right course. The worker need no longer concern himself about the rectitude or otherwise of the course."

2. "The Divine Will prevails at all times and under all circumstances. The individuals cannot act of their own accord. Recognize the force of the Divine Will and keep quiet."

The above statements of Bhagawan are clear enough.


Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2016, 07:18:42 AM »
Sadhak,
1."If he has surrendered to God or to Guru the Power to which he has surrendered will take him on the right course. The worker need no longer concern himself about the rectitude or otherwise of the course."
Here is the complete passage from 'The Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi':
14th August, 1938 Talk 502. Sjt. Rajendra Prasad and Sjt. Jamnalal Bajaj with others are on a visit to Sri Maharshi.
16th August - Sjt. J. B. asked questions:
D.: How is the mind to be steadily kept right?
M.: All living beings are aware of their surroundings and therefore intellect must be surmised in all of them. At the same time, there is a difference between the intellect of man and that of other animals, because man not only sees the world as it is and acts accordingly, but also seeks fulfilment of desires and is not satisfied with the existing state of affairs. In his attempt to fulfil his desires he extends his vision far and wide and yet he turns away dissatisfied. He now begins to think and reason.
The desire for permanency of happiness and of peace bespeaks such permanency in his own nature. Therefore he seeks to find and regain his own nature, i.e., his Self. That found, all is found. Such inward seeking is the path to be gained by man?s intellect. The intellect itself realises after continuous practice that it is enabled by some Higher Power to function. It cannot itself reach that Power. So it ceases to function after a certain stage. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is still left there all alone. That is Realisation; that is the finality; that is the goal.
It is thus plain that the purpose of the intellect is to realise its own dependence upon the Higher Power and its inability to reach the same. So it must annihilate itself before the goal is gained.
D.: A sloka is quoted which means: ?I do not desire kingdoms, etc.
Only let me serve Thee for ever and there lies my highest pleasure.?
Is that right?
M.: Yes. There is room for kama (desire) so long as there is an object apart from the subject (i.e., duality). There can be no desire if there is no object. The state of no-desire is moksha. There is no duality in sleep and also no desire. Whereas there is duality in the waking state and desire also is there. Because of duality a desire arises for the acquisition of the object. That is the outgoing mind, which is the basis of duality and of desire. If one knows that Bliss is none other than the Self the mind becomes inward turned. If the Self is gained all the desires are fulfilled. That is the apta kamah atma kamah akamascha (fulfilment of desire) of the Brihadaranyaka
Upanishad(This quote from The Brihadaranyaka upanishad is omitted in the Tamil translation). That is moksha.
Here J. B. tried to make himself clear by saying that what he meant by sadbuddhi was not the same as buddhi. It means that which holds fast to the good, the right and the chosen path. He wanted to know how such steadfastness could be gained.
M.: What is wanted for gaining the highest goal is loss of individuality. The intellect is co-extensive with individuality. Loss of individuality can only be after the disappearance of buddhi, good or bad. The question therefore does not arise.
D.: But yet one must know the right thing, choose the right path, practise the right dharma and hold fast to it. Otherwise he is lost.
M.: True strength accrues by keeping in the right direction without swerving from it.
(The Tamil Translation by Sri Viswanatha Swami who was also present when the Talks took place goes thus:Yes,Yes.By  not swerving from swadharma and remaing firm in it ,we gain true strength)
D.: Difficulties are met with. How is one to get the strength necessary to overcome the obstacles which beset one?s path?
M.: By means of devotion and company of the sages.
D.: Loss of individuality was just before mentioned as a prerequisite to moksha. Now devotion and association with the wise are advised as the methods. Is there not individuality implied in them e.g., in ?I am a bhakta?, ?I am a satsangi??
M.: The method is pointed out to the seeker. The seeker has certainly not lost his individuality so far. Otherwise the question would not have arisen. The way is shown to effect the loss of individuality of the seeker. It is thus appropriate.
D.: Is the desire for swaraj right?
M.: Such desire no doubt begins with self-interest. Yet practical work for the goal gradually widens the outlook so that the individual becomes merged in the country. Such merging of the individuality is desirable and the related karma is nishkama (unselfish) .
D.: If swaraj is gained after a long struggle and terrible sacrifices, is not the person justified in being pleased with the result and elated by it?
M.: He must have in the course of his work surrendered himself to the Higher Power whose Might must be kept in mind and never lost sight of. How then can he be elated? He should not even care for the result of his actions. Then alone the karma becomes unselfish.
D.: How can unerring rectitude be ensured for the worker?
M.: If he has surrendered himself to God or to Guru the Power to which he had surrendered will take him on the right course. The worker need no longer concern himself about the rectitude or otherwise of the course. The doubt will arise only if he fails to obey the Master in all details.

Nishkama Karma ,the role of the intellect,Bhakti and association of the wise ones as  steps towards effecting Surrender  are covered in this single talk.

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2016, 08:07:43 AM »
2. "The Divine Will prevails at all times and under all circumstances. The individuals cannot act of their own accord. Recognize the force of the Divine Will and keep quiet."

15th December, 1938 Talk 594.
The Spanish lady, Madam Mercedes De Acorta, has written a letter to Mr. Hague, the American mining engineer who is here as a temporary resident for the last two months. She has raised a few questions there: ?If the individual Self merges into the universal Self, how can one pray to God for the uplift of humanity?? The question seems to be common among the thinkers of the West.
Sri Bhagavan said: They pray to God and finish with ?Thy Will be done!? If His Will be done why do they pray at all? It is true that the Divine Will prevails at all times and under all circumstances. The individuals cannot act of their own accord.(This is omitted in the Tamil translation by Sri Viswanatha Swami.For your information,Sri Munagala Venkatramiah had interpolated a few lines here and there on his own.There is an article by David Godman on this aspect.) Recognise the force of the Divine Will and keep quiet. Each one is looked after by God.
He has created all. You are one among 2,000 millions. When He looks after so many will He omit you? Even common sense dictates that one should abide by His Will.
Again there is no need to let Him know your needs. He knows them Himself and will look after them.
Still more, why do you pray? Because you are helpless yourself and you want the Higher Power to help you. Well, does not your Creator and Protector know your weakness? Should you parade your weakness in order to make Him know it?
D.: But God helps those who help themselves.
M.: Certainly. Help yourself and that is itself according to God?s Will.(Here the Tamil version runs thus:Yes,even the subhechcha(literally good desire)to redeem oneself occurs on account of grace.)Every action is prompted by Him only(This is omitted in the Tamil translation). As for prayer for the sake of others, it looks so unselfish on the surface of it. But analyse the feeling and you will detect selfishness there also. You desire others? happiness so that you may be happy. Or you want the credit for having interceded on others? behalf. God does not require an intermediary. Mind your business and all will be well.(The Tamil translation runs like this:If we attend to redeeming ourselves the rest will happen)
D.: Does not God work His Will through some chosen person?
M.: God is in all and works through all. But His presence is better recognised in purified minds. The pure ones reflect God?s actions more clearly than the impure minds. Therefore people say that they are the chosen ones. But the ?chosen? man does not himself say so. If he thinks that he is the intermediary then it is clear that he retains his individuality and that there is no complete surrender.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2016, 08:42:35 AM »
Friends,
Here are some excerpts from 'Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi' where Sri Bhagavan refers to Free will,Destiny:

1.Talk 193.
Maharshi observed: Free-will and destiny are ever-existent(The Tamil Translation by Sri Viswanatha Swami says that they are co-existent). Destiny is the result of past action; it concerns the body. Let the body act as may suit it. Why are you concerned with it? Why do you pay attention to it? Free-will and Destiny last as long as the body lasts. But wisdom (jnana) transcends both. The Self is beyond knowledge and ignorance. Should anything happen, it happens as the result of one?s past actions, of divine will and of other factors.

2.19th June, 1936 Talk 209.
Mr. B. C. Das, the Physics Lecturer, asked about free-will and destiny.
M.: Whose will is it? ?It is mine?, you may say. You are beyond will and fate. Abide as that and you transcend them both. That is the meaning of conquering destiny by will. Fate can be conquered. Fate is the result of past actions. By association with the wise the bad tendencies are conquered. One?s experiences are then viewed to their proper perspective.
I exist now. I am the enjoyer. I enjoy fruits of action. I was in the past and shall be in the future. Who is this ?I?? Finding this ?I? to be pure Consciousness beyond action and enjoyment, freedom and happiness are gained. There is then no effort, for the Self is perfect and there remains nothing more to gain. So long as there is individuality, one is the enjoyer and doer. But if it is lost, the divine Will prevails and guides the course of events. The individual is perceptible to others who cannot perceive divine
force. Restrictions and discipline are for other individuals and not for the liberated.
Free-will is implied in the scriptural injunctions to be good. It implies overcoming fate. It is done by wisdom. The fire of wisdom consumes all actions. Wisdom is acquired by association with the wise, or rather, its mental atmosphere.(The Tamil Translation says :sat vasana)

3.Talk 244.
A Maharani Saheba spoke in a gentle and low voice, but quite audibly:
D.: ?Maharajji, I have the good fortune to see you. My eyes have had the pleasure of seeing you, my ears the pleasure of hearing your voice. ?I am blessed with everything that a human being would like to have.? Her Highness?s voice choked. With great strength of mind she rallied and proceeded slowly, ?I have all that I want, a human being would want ?. But ... But ... I ... I ... do not have peace of mind ... Something prevents it. Probably my destiny....?
There was silence for a few minutes. Then Maharshi in his usual sweet manner spoke:
M.: ?All right. What need be said has been said. Well. What is destiny? There is no destiny. Surrender, and all will be well. Throw all the responsibility on God. Do not bear the burden yourself. What can destiny do to you then??
D.: Surrender is impossible.
M.: Yes. Complete surrender is impossible in the beginning. Partial surrender is certainly possible for all. In course of time that will lead to complete surrender. Well, if surrender is impossible, what can be done? There is no peace of mind. You are helpless to bring it about. It can be done only by surrender.
D.: Partial surrender - well - can it undo destiny?
M.: Oh, yes! It can.
D.: Is not destiny due to past karma?
M.: If one is surrendered to God, God will look to it.
D.: This being God?s dispensation, how does God undo it?
M.: All are in Him only.

4.12th June, 1937 Talk 426.
D.: Has man any Free-Will or is everything in his life predestined and preordained?
M.: Free-Will holds the field in association with individuality. As long as individuality lasts so long there is Free-Will. All the sastras are based on this fact and they advise directing the Free-Will in the right channel.
Find out to whom Free-Will or Destiny matters. Abide in it. Then these two are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at peace.

We may now tally what Sri Ramakrishna has said with what Sri Bhagavan has said.What more to add?Swami Vivekananda says emphatically:
Quote
We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in the future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act.
Sri Bhagavan has also conceded this,only he takes it to the next  level where both freewill and destiny are transcended in the dissolution of the individuality as summum bonum of Life.All the other sages including Swami Vivekananda have also said this.
Importantly when we have the conviction  that through Self Effort(purushakara) we can overcome destiny,it already has the Divine Force behind it and this needs to be recognized and never forgotten.We have the Backing of Great sages like Vasishta,Tiruvalluvar,Sri Ramakrishna,Swami Vivekananda,Sri Bhagavan and the upanishads,Gita ,Yoga Vasishta behind it.
Namaskar.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 08:56:07 AM by Ravi.N »

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2016, 12:01:37 AM »
I also have these talks but only posted the essence.

You are getting to the central issue now.

1. "It is thus plain that the purpose of the intellect is to realise its own dependence upon the Higher Power and its inability to reach the same. So it must annihilate itself before the goal is gained."  And "the divine will prevails at all times and under all circumstances".


The issue you raised originally: "The issue that we are discussing is this-Do we just stop exercising our intellect and judgement to better ourselves (in whatever way) as results are already predetermined or do  we work towards improving our lot and yet have the attitude and composure to accept whatever the outcome."

It must be clear by now that whether you exercise or stop exercising your intellect, it is still the divine will that operates and makes you exercise or not exercise. So there is no personal decision making or choice in the matter although it may indeed seem that way. So the issue you raised is seen as a problem only as long as the operation of divine will is not understood.

Regarding free will, here is a discussion with Devaraja Mudaliar that you may have missed.

DM:  I asked him 'Are only important events in a man's life such as his main occupation or profession predetermined, or are trifling acts in his life such as taking a cup of water or moving from one place in the room to another also predetermined?"

Bhagavan: Yes, everything is predetermined.

DM: Then what responsibility, what free will has man?

B: What for then does the body come into existence? It is designed for doing the various things marked out for execution in this life. The whole programme is chalked out.
 



Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2016, 07:11:37 AM »
Sadhak,
Please go through the posts again calmly.All these have been covered.I have started the post referring to what Sri Bhagavan told Devaraja Mudaliar and Sri Bhagavan's mother.

Quote
It must be clear by now that whether you exercise or stop exercising your intellect, it is still the divine will that operates and makes you exercise or not exercise.

Who is the 'one' who exercises or stops exercising?It is the individual.As long as the individual exists,the Divine Will permits the 'Freewill' and is limited by the 'Freewill' so exercised.The 'Freewill' still needs to be exercised in terms of continued Effort to ensure that nothing comes to detract from it.
It is only when the Individuality is dissolved that one can truly say that one has reached the state of effortlessness and that  there is no Freewill and until then Effort has to continue.
We have heard of many seekers who have 'fallen' from Grace because of complacency or subtle ego play.

Now,this is how Sri Aurobindo explains this:
The development of the experience in its rapidity, its amplitude, the intensity and power of its results, depends primarily, in the beginning of the path and long after, on the aspiration and personal effort of the Sadhaka. The process of Yoga is a turning of the human soul from the egoistic state of consciousness absorbed in the outward appearances and attractions of things to a higher state in which the Transcendent and Universal can pour itself into the individual mould and transform it. The first determining element of the siddhi is, therefore, the intensity of the turning, the force which directs the soul inward. The power of aspiration of the heart, the force of the will, the concentration of the mind, the perseverance and determination of the applied energy are the measure of that intensity. The ideal Sadhaka should be able to say in the Biblical phrase, "My zeal for the Lord has eaten me up." It is this zeal for the Lord, utsaha, the zeal of the whole nature for its divine results, vyakulata, the heart's eagerness for the attainment of the Divine, -- that devours the ego and breaks up the limitations of its petty and narrow mould for the full and wide reception of that which it seeks, that which, being universal, exceeds and, being transcendent, surpasses even the largest and highest individual self and nature.

But this is only one side of the force that works for perfection. The process of the integral Yoga has three stages, not indeed sharply distinguished or separate, but in a certain measure successive. There must be, first, the effort towards at least an initial and enabling self-transcendence and contact with the Divine; next, the reception of that which transcends, that with which we have gained communion, into ourselves for the transformation of our whole conscious being; last, the utilisation of our transformed humanity as a divine centre in the world. So long as the contact with the Divine is not in some considerable degree established, so long as there is not some measure of sustained identity, sayujya, the element of personal effort must normally predominate. But in proportion as this contact establishes itself, the Sadhaka must become conscious that a force other than his own, a force transcending his egoistic endeavour and capacity, is at work in him and to this Power he learns progressively to submit himself and delivers up to it the charge of his Yoga. In the end his own will and force become one with the higher Power; he merges them in the divine Will and its transcendent and universal Force. He finds it thenceforward presiding over the necessary transformation of his mental, vital and physical being with an impartial wisdom and provident effectivity of which the eager and interested ego is not capable. It is when this identification and this self-merging are complete that the divine centre in the world is ready.

Always indeed it is the higher Power that acts. Our sense of personal effort and aspiration comes from the attempt of the egoistic mind to identify itself in a wrong and imperfect way with the workings of the divine Force. It persists in applying to experience on a supernormal plane the ordinary terms of mentality which it applies to its normal experiences in the world. In the world we act with the sense of egoism; we claim the universal forces that work in us as our own; we claim as the effect of our personal will, wisdom, force, virtue the selective, formative, progressive action of the Transcendent in this frame of mind, life and body. Enlightenment brings to us the knowledge that the ego is only an instrument; we begin to perceive and feel that these things are our own in the sense that they belong to our supreme and integral Self, one with the Transcendent, not to the instrumental ego. Our limitations and distortions are our contribution to the working; the true power in it is the Divine's. When the human ego realises that its will is a tool, its wisdom ignorance and childishness, its power an infant's groping, its virtue a pretentious impurity, and learns to trust itself to that which transcends it, that is its salvation. The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to our little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. The self-abnegation of the ego in the Divine is its self-fulfillment; its surrender to that which transcends it is its liberation from bonds and limits and its perfect freedom.
continued....
 

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2016, 07:16:27 AM »
Sri Aurobindo on the nature of Effort continued....

But still, in the practical development, each of the three stages has its necessity and utility and must be given its time or its place. It will not do, it cannot be safe or effective to begin with the last and highest alone. It would not be the right course, either, to leap prematurely from one to another. For even if from the beginning we recognise in mind and heart the Supreme, there are elements of the nature which long prevent the recognition from becoming realisation. But without realisation our mental belief cannot become a dynamic reality; it is still only a figure of knowledge, not a living truth, an idea, not yet a power. And even if realisation has begun, it may be dangerous to imagine or to assume too soon that we are altogether in the hands of the Supreme or are acting as his instrument. That assumption may introduce a calamitous falsity; it may produce a helpless inertia or, magnifying the movements of the ego with the Divine Name, it may disastrously distort and ruin the whole course of the Yoga. There is a period, more or less prolonged, of internal effort and struggle in which the individual will has to reject the darkness and distortions of the lower nature and to put itself resolutely or vehemently on the side of the divine Light. The mental energies, the heart's emotions, the vital desires, the very physical being have to be compelled into the right attitude or trained to admit and answer to the right influences. It is only then, only when this has been truly done, that the surrender of the lower to the higher can be effected, because the sacrifice has become acceptable.

The personal will of the Sadhaka has first to seize on the egoistic energies and turn them towards the light and the right; once turned, he has still to train them to recognise that always, always to accept, always to follow that. Progressing, he learns, still using the personal will, personal effort, personal energies, to employ them as representatives of the higher Power and in conscious obedience to the higher Influence. Progressing yet farther, his will, effort, energy become no longer personal and separate, but activities of that higher Power and Influence at work in the individual. But there is still a sort of gulf of distance which necessitates an obscure process of transit, not always accurate, sometimes even very distorting, between the divine Origin and the emerging human current. At the end of the progress, with the progressive disappearance of egoism and impurity and ignorance, this last separation is removed; all in the individual becomes the divine working.

This is excerpted from the wonderful chapter 'Four Aids' from The Synthesis of Yoga by Sri Aurobindo which I have posted here:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7216.0
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2016, 07:32:11 AM »
Sadhak,

I did not comment on this expression of yours  earlier but it may be appropriate to do so now:

Quote
Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do.


Please think about this-Is the Divine Will waiting for some 'muhurtam' (auspicious) time to remove the so called ignorance?There must be some holding back,some reservation somewhere and we must seek it and remove the block.Effort is necessary.Either one has to pursue 'self-enquiry' or  surrender truly(Tamasic surrender will not do).
How to surrender truly-Like the way Sri Ramakrishna says in this prayer:
Quote
I used to pray to Her in this way: 'O Mother! O Blissful One! Reveal Thyself to me. Thou must!' Again, I would say to Her: 'O Lord of the lowly! O Lord of the universe! Surely I am not outside Thy universe. I am bereft of knowledge. I am without discipline. I have no devotion. I know nothing. Thou must be gracious and reveal Thyself to me.
Instead of thinking that it does not matter whether you do or not do anything,you must give up all these thoughts and surrender-and then see if the Ignorance persists.
Please go through Akshara Mana Malai-Those verses will kindle the right movement towards surrender.
Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2016, 07:50:35 AM »
Sadhak,
Now in the context of the previous posts ,kindly review:

Quote
So someone who is a bit serious realizes that whether he acts or does not act, it is all due to the operation of divine will. May be such a person could be called a sadhak.

A true seeker or devotee will always put the onus on his deficiency and ineptitude and own responsibility for not submitting to the Divine will,even after recognizing its operation.He would then beseech the Divine to take over completely.(This sort of prayer removes the barrier).

 கீழ்மே லெங்குங் கிளரொளி மணியென்
         கீழ்மையைப் பாழ்செய் யருணாசலா.     

 O Arunachala, Gem of light which shines everywhere, both in the low and in the high,
       destroy my lowness(my base and impure nature).

Explanatory Note:  O Arunachala, You are the pure and precious light of consciousness which shines in me as 'I am' in all places and at all times, both when my mind is in a low and impure state , and when it is in a highly mature and pure state.   Since You are therefore unaffected and undefiled either by my purity or by my impurity, reveal to me your true nature and thereby destroy my baseness.

It does not matter whether one is 'serious' or 'ordinary' but one has to remain true and earnest.Whoever has earnestness is a sadhaka.

Namaskar.

Sadhak

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2016, 09:12:35 AM »
"As long as the individual exists,the Divine Will permits the 'Freewill' and is limited by the 'Freewill' so exercised.The 'Freewill' still needs to be exercised in terms of continued Effort to ensure that nothing comes to detract from it."

IMHO, This is the crux of your mental block. Divine Will is NOT limited and CANNOT be limited. If it is limited by anything, then it is NOT divine Will. The whole idea of my effort in order to 'permit' or 'not detract from' Divine Will to operate is ridiculous. The divine will needs nobody's permission to operate.

That is why it is important to understand Bhagawan's unequivocal statements on this subject that are general in nature as opposed to his answers to individual difficulties of understanding.

But, obviously I have failed to communicate with you (which must be the way it has been ordained by the divine will). The divine will will continue to run its course!

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will - John Grimes - Mountain Path, Oct. - Dec. 2008.
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2016, 10:06:54 AM »
Sadhak,
Forget my 'mental Block' but You have not answered my simple question on what you are holding onto.

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Unless the divine will removes this ignorance/ego, I will remain so no matter what I do or don't do

Is the Divine Will waiting for some 'muhurtam' (auspicious) time to remove the so called ignorance?

The Breeze of Grace is ever blowing but we need to unfurl the sails and experience it.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 10:15:56 AM by Ravi.N »