Author Topic: Vedanta questions  (Read 11578 times)

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 05:46:47 PM »
Dear Sanjay,

Yes. Prarabdha for Jnani is only from the onlooker's point of view.  He is not the cow to hit by the arrow.  He is all Effulgence,
Light. What can the arrow do if it reaches the Light. It will pass through the Light and fall on the other side.

Dear Hari,

This is my translation of Verse 7 of Koil Tirupadigam:

You have graced me today. Like the Sun rising and removing darkness you have removed the darkness of my mind.
I am always thinking  [experiencing] without break about Your state.  There is nothing else but You.  Approaching,
approaching, I [my ego]  became like an atom and that atom also finally disappeared.  O Lord of Tiruperundurai,
I now realized that it is only ever You without a second.  Who can understand this experience?

This is the pinnacle of bhakti.  Speaks about total self surrender, and erasure of ego.

Arunachala Siva.
   

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 06:30:33 PM »
Dear Hari, Nagaraj, Sanjay,

There is one more beautiful gem in Tiruvachakam, Verse 10 of Koil Tirupadigam, where the para bhakti (supreme devotion)
of the saint poet Maniikavachagar causes dawn of Atma Jnana.  Here he says that Siva is a poor barter and he gained
in the transaction. 

What you have given is Yourself
What You took in exchange, O Sankara is the poor me.
Who is wiser of us two?
What I have gained is Bliss that has no end.
What single thing have You obtained from me?
Lord who made my mind Your shrine !
Hail Siva, dwelling in Holy Perunturai !
For You taking up residence in my body,
I cannot, father, God,
offer you any fitting recompense. 

Tr. David Godman. 

The original commentator says that union of Jiva and Siva is complete here.  The rest of the poems are only pageant!

Muruganar says that the surrender of Jiva is the loss of individuality in the divine feet of God, through the cessation of the
ego consciousness which is that Jiva's form.  This is accompanied by the strength of mind that meditates on the incomparable
feet of God.  When  you study the matter [you discover that this] is the fruit of devotion, para bhakti practiced in diverse ways
over many lives. 

I shall give the Tamizh original in the next post.

Arunachala Siva.
         

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 06:32:33 PM »
Dear Hari, Nagaraj, Sanjaya,

This is verse 10 of Koil Tirupadigam:


தந்ததுன் தன்னைக் கொண்டதென் றன்னைச்
சங்கரா ஆர்கொலோ சதுரர்
அந்தமொன் றில்லா ஆனந்தம் பெற்றேன்
யாதுநீ பெற்றதொன் றென்பால்
சிந்தையே கோயில் கொண்ட எம்பெருமான்
திருப்பெருந்துறையுறை சிவனே
எந்தையே ஈசா உடலிடங் கொண்டாய்
யான் இதற் கிலன்ஓர்கைம் மாறே. 397


This is one of the many verses of Tiruvachakam, reading which I shall cry.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1835
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 07:56:02 PM »
Dear Nagaraj, Sanjay and Subramanian. What you have said is very valid. Especially turiyatita and dreams. But see. I have give this example somewhere. There are people who have taught to 'wake up' in dream. This technique is called "Lucid dreaming". In this dream the dreamer is aware that all of this comes from his/her mind and is 'illusion' but he/she continues to enjoy the dream. The individuality is there. Isn't the "God's dream" of bhaktas something close to lucid dreaming? Like for them everything is real because is 'caused' and 'come' from God's consciousness within?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 08:17:34 PM »
Dear sir,

what an expression, do we have any other recourse but just being silent?

What you have given is Yourself
What You took in exchange, O Sankara is the poor me.
Who is wiser of us two?
What I have gained is Bliss that has no end.
What single thing have You obtained from me?
Lord who made my mind Your shrine !
Hail Siva, dwelling in Holy Perunturai !
For You taking up residence in my body,
I cannot, father, God,
offer you any fitting recompense.       

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 08:22:40 PM »
Dear Hari,

Questioning beyond certain point actually ends up being meaningless, it will be an endless cave that leads no where. We must be aware that we are only contemplating with a limited instrument that is intellect. And all these reasonings are merely to quieten the agitated mind or the questioning mind. Therefore, we ought to renounce these intellectual reasoning to that point when our mind becomes still and at peace. There is no need to proceed further to complete the reasoning in-order to reach some conclusion. This is certain - Any conclusion is false! Therefore, do not look for logical conclusion. The objective is to merely quieten the mind, and the repose.

Surprisingly i found this subsequently -

Here's what Bhagavan says -

All are agreed on the annihilation of the ego. Let us get to business
on the agreed point. Nanajivatva (different individualities) are
mentioned by some Advaitins also. All that is immaterial to one’s
spiritual uplift. First realise the Self and then see what lies further.


--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 08:27:31 PM »
In another place -

Let us first realise and then see.

Talks

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1835
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2013, 12:44:11 PM »
Today I again thought about something which I have thought before. We are the Self always. Then why we should realize what we already are? Why should we 'work' so hard to be what we already are? Why the most important thing is Self-realization when there is nothing to be realized? And why the spiritual path we have chosen is more 'wise' than the choice of the worldly people? What would you answer for yourself?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2013, 01:07:30 PM »

Dear Hari,

Yes. We are already the Self, the eternal and ever present.  Then why should we do sadhana to realize the Self, which
we already are?  Dear Hari, Atma vicharam in a sense, is anatma vicharam.  That is to remove the non-Self so that
Self will shine brilliantly and effulgently.  Non-Self is our body/mind idea, our ignorance, our ego, our pride, our lust and
our anger.  If these are removed then the Self shines of its own accord.  It is like de-cluttering a room.  Remove the unwanted
things, old newspapers, books, broken furniture etc.,  Then the room appears spacious.  We have not created space.  We
have only removed the unwanted things.

Arunachala Siva.       

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1835
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Kapala moksha
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
What 'kapala moksha' means?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 11:19:06 AM »

Dear Hari,

In Yoga Marga, when kundalini reaches the crown of the head and splits it and goes out, then the person who dies
in the process, is said to have attained kapala moksha.

Arunachala Siva. 

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1835
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2013, 06:53:11 PM »
What is Krama mukti and what is Sadyo-mukti?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2013, 07:07:28 PM »
Dear Hari,

Krama Mukti (mukti as per usual stages) consists in going through four stages like brahmacharya, householdership, vanaprasta
(forest dwelling) and sannyasa and then gaining liberation through contemplation of God or Atma.

Sadyo mukti is quickly realizing the Satyam, (Truth) and attaining mukti, after contemplation of god or Self.  There is no need to go through all the stages.   

Arunachala Siva.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2013, 11:21:22 PM »
Swami Vivekananda quoted Sri Shankara who has said that the worshiper of God can choose to 'retain' his individuality and to serve the Lord for eternity and to help others? Isn't this a controversy? Can there is liberation without 'ego death'?

Dear Hari

What I have observed is,  the words of Thakur and Swami Vivekananda will seem contradictory if you read other speeches by them at some other instances

I think both Thakur and Swamiji never planned all these talks and it was all spontaneous

one can see many instances of this in Gospel

because they spoke exactly like a mirror whoever listened in front of them,  to that mentality they spoke

their mind is dead and they were not really seeing a subject and object.....they spoke and they really did not speak a word.......a supreme power spoke through them

so all this contradictions will seemingly be there

one should leave it at that

no need to interpret and match it with advaita

a Master is a mystery..........

we never know when we appeared before them what they would have told

obviously they did not speak for someone to write a book

they just passed their times in their lives speaking to different devotees as was Ordained by a supreme power

if you go by this,  Bhagvan Ramana glorified both Buddha and Jnana Sambandhar while Sambandhar has severely criticized Buddhism in many of his verses

Further Buddha had denied the truth of Ishwara which is our Bhagavan's own Guru Arunachaleswhara

so can we go and ask Bhagavan why he glorified Buddha?

it is all a mystery....

according to the time period they live,  jnanis sometimes do certain things that will not tally exactly with advaita doctrine.......

when this question woudl have asked to Bhagavan Ramana he would have given an answer like this:

'Oho I see, that is your doubt, you want to know what Shankara meant,  what Swami Vivekananda meant, but before that , first you attain that state of exalted individuality where you are free to help others,  then let us see if you have to merge or not,  until then what use it is to speak of a state which we did not even attain?'
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 11:23:43 PM by ksksat27 »

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1835
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2013, 10:59:15 PM »
It is more easy to do Self-inquiry or to abide as the Self when you are young and healthy. But how that be achieved if you are in pain, old, weak, in troubles? How 'Who am I?' is to be applied in these situations? What should be our advice to the people with not very fortune life? Can you do Self-inquiry when you are depressed, in pain, catched a cold or your life is a mess?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html