Author Topic: Vedanta questions  (Read 7429 times)

Hari

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Vedanta questions
« on: May 09, 2013, 11:45:26 PM »
Here I will post my questions about some topics of Vedanta and of course some other questions related to it. Everyone else is welcome to do the same.
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Hari

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 11:56:48 PM »
Swami Vivekananda quoted Sri Shankara who has said that the worshiper of God can choose to 'retain' his individuality and to serve the Lord for eternity and to help others? Isn't this a controversy? Can there is liberation without 'ego death'?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 09:45:42 AM »

Dear Hari,

Retaining one's individuality and worshipping God is Bhakti Marga, the path of devotion.  This devotional practice when mature,
becomes total surrender and at this point the individuality or ego is erased completely and there is only God and no devotee.
Saint Manikkavachagar describes this in Verse 7 of Koil Tirupadigam in Tiruvachakam and Sri Bhagavan used to extol this verse.

Arunachala Siva.

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 10:08:27 AM »
Dear Hari,

This is the verse 7 of Saint Manikkavachagar from Koil Tirupadigam, Tiruvachakam:


இன்றெனக் கருளி இருள்கடிந்துள்ளக்
தெழுகின்ற ஞாயிறே போன்று
நின்றநின் தன்மை நினைப்பற நினைந்தேன்
நீயலால் பிறிது மற்றின்மை
சென்றுசென்றுணுவாய்த் தேய்ந்துதேய்ந்தொன்றாம்
திருப்பெருந்துறையுறை சிவனே
ஒன்றும் நீயல்லை அன்றியொன் றில்லை
யாருன்னை அறியகிற்பாரே. 394


I shall give G.U. Pope's English translation made in the year 1900.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 10:21:35 AM »
Dear Hari,

This is Dr. G.U. Pope's English translation of Verse 7 of Koil Tirupadigam, Tiruvachakam:

The English is Victorian and thus makes it difficult to understand. 

This is the pinnacle of Bhakti Marga where the ego is totally erased and there is only Sivan and not the devotee.


VII.

THIS DAY on me in grace Thou risest bright, a Sun,
bidding from out my mind the darkness flee!
That thought may cease upon Thy nature manifest,
I think. Beside Thee all that is is nought,-
Moving ever,- as atoms ever wasting,- Thou art One!
Civan, Who dwell'st in Perun-turrrai's shrine!
Thou art not anything; without Thee nothing is;
who are they that can know Thee as Thou art? (28)


Sri Bhagavan used to extol this verse and Muruganar has also mentioned this in some verses of Guru Vachaka Kovai.
Here the Sun, i.e. Sivan removes all the darkness in the devotee's mind and the mind becomes pure, Suddha Manas.
Suddha Manas is the Self. The mind is cleansed atom by atom and the mind itself becomes atom like and then disappears
at the end.  Thereafter there is no mind but only Sivan or Sivam, Consciousness.

Civan =- Sivan. 
Perun-turrai = Tiruperundurai where Siva manifested as a brahmin guru to the devotee-poet.   

Dr. G.U. Pope was a Jesuit father in Tirunelveli and he took to Tamizh for his missionary work.  He learnt Tiruvachakam,
out of love for the poems and finally translated the whole Tiruvachakam.  Later he worked as a Head Master in Bishop
Cotton Boys' School in Bangalore.

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Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 11:13:00 AM »
Thank you, Sri Subramanian. But see what Swami Vivekananda has said:

"We shall now try to understand what the great representative of the Advaita School has to say on the point. We shall see how the Advaita system maintains all the hopes and aspirations of the dualist intact, and at the same time propounds its own solution of the problem in consonance with the high destiny of divine humanity. Those who aspire to retain their individual mind even after liberation and to remain distinct will have ample opportunity of realising their aspirations and enjoying the blessing of the qualified Brahman. These are they who have been spoken of in the Bhâgavata Purâna thus: "O king, such are the, glorious qualities of the Lord that the sages whose only pleasure is in the Self, and from whom all fetters have fallen off, even they love the Omnipresent with the love that is for love's sake." These are they who are spoken of by the Sânkhyas as getting merged in nature in this cycle, so that, after attaining perfection, they may come out in the next as lords of world-systems. But none of these ever becomes equal to God (Ishvara). Those who attain to that state where there is neither creation, nor created, nor creator, where there is neither knower, nor knowable, nor knowledge, where there is neither I, nor thou, nor he, where there is neither subject, nor object, nor relation, "there, who is seen by whom?" — such persons have gone beyond everything to "where words cannot go nor mind", gone to that which the Shrutis declare as "Not this, not this"; but for those who cannot, or will not reach this state, there will inevitably remain the triune vision of the one undifferentiated Brahman as nature, soul, and the interpenetrating sustainer of both — Ishvara. So, when Prahlâda forgot himself, he found neither the universe nor its cause; all was to him one Infinite, undifferentiated by name and form; but as soon as he remembered that he was Prahlada, there was the universe before him and with it the Lord of the universe — "the Repository of an infinite number of blessed qualities". So it was with the blessed Gopis. So long as they had lost sense of their own personal identity and individuality, they were all Krishnas, and when they began again to think of Him as the One to be worshipped, then they were Gopis again, and immediately (Bhagavata) — "Unto them appeared Krishna with a smile on His lotus face, clad in yellow robes and having garlands on, the embodied conqueror (in beauty) of the god of love."

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 11:30:50 AM »
Dear Hari,

'Those who want to retain their individuality even after liberation.'  This is not Sri Bhagavan's view.  A Jivanmukta has no
individual mind.  As a concession, he is said to have suddha manas, pure mind which is the Self itself, as Sri Bhagavan said.

Now the question arises, when there is no mind, (or ego) how can a Jivan mukta do his daily routine work, or even write poetry,
eat, sleep and attend to nature calls?  This question is answered by Sri Bhagavan in Guru Vachaka Kovai saying that the
God within him makes him do all these work. Jiva Bodham and Siva bodham cannot remain simultaneously.     

See Guru Vachka Kovai, Verse 1139:

If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions. How can actions be performed in the absence of the sense of
doership?  You should be convinced that because his inner attachment [ego] is dead, he has God himself residing in his Heart
and performing those actions.

Sri Bhagavan answers in Day by Day entry dated 5th May 1946:

And if it is held that a man cannot be considered a Jnani so long as he performs actions in the world and the action is
impossible without the mind, then not only great sages who carried on various kinds of work after attaining Jnana must not
be considered Jnanis, but gods also, and Isvara himself since he continues  looking after the world.  The fact is that any amount
of action can be performed, and performed quite well, by the Jnani without identifying himself with it in any way or ever
imagining that he is the doer. Some Power acts through his body and uses his body to get the work done.

(Tr. David Godman)

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Arunachala Siva. 
     

Nagaraj

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 11:36:56 AM »
these retaining individualities etc.. are only the speculation of the onlookers. as Bhagavan said the mind of Jnani is itself Brahman, He transcends individualities and any such concepts.

What he does is his own sweet will, which is called the will of God.

These are all the product of outgoing mind of the onlooker.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 03:21:35 PM »
I agree with both of you. But it still seems very strange. How to realize that God is the doer and to say that if individuality has not left in consciousness? There must be ego to say that it is not the doer. Does bhakta realization "Everything is God" different from "I am the Self"? And another thing. If bhakta realization "Everything is God" is the same as jnani realization "Everything is the Self" then that actually means that bhakta 'stops' to exist, that he/she is not bhakta anymore. Isn't bhakta different in this regard that his individuality is left even after realization that everything is God?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 03:27:45 PM »
Dear Hari,

No individuality is left over, after Realization.  The fact that God is the doer of all the actions of a  Brahma Jnani is more of
an experience and not by way of thinking.  There is no thinking, doership, ego etc., for a Brahma Jnani. 

One Mr. M.P. Pandit, an Aurobindo called the Maharshi as the 'greatest impersonality.'   The Maharshi had no personality
or individuality.

Arunachala Siva.     

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 03:58:42 PM »
I agree with both of you. But it still seems very strange. How to realize that God is the doer and to say that if individuality has not left in consciousness? There must be ego to say that it is not the doer. Does bhakta realization "Everything is God" different from "I am the Self"? And another thing. If bhakta realization "Everything is God" is the same as jnani realization "Everything is the Self" then that actually means that bhakta 'stops' to exist, that he/she is not bhakta anymore. Isn't bhakta different in this regard that his individuality is left even after realization that everything is God?

Hari - My musings - For the realized self, it is prarabdha which actions via mind, body and intellect. Self doesn't own / take part in it. It is the ever shining witness / observer. It is like you observing a machine operating. You can say I am manufacturing OR you can say I am witnessing the machine manufacturing (bad example - but just off my head).

And the second part - This is the biggest difference between thuriya and dream state. In dream state, you stop dreaming and wake up the moment you realize it is a dream. In thuriya state, you can continue to see the dream even after realizing it is a dream. And you can do any karma in that dream including worshiping. Ashtavakra gita explains this beautifully as you may have seen. Of course, my writing is very crude - trying to convey that message.

Sanjay.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 04:09:00 PM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 04:12:37 PM »
Dear Hari,

i'll just try to express myself, hopefully you may get some insight -

Fundamentally, it is like this,

What is, alone is.

Before so called realisation 'what is' is camouflaged by various sheaths of ignorance, then it is known as individuality.

At the dawn of realisation of 'what is' clear of all sheaths of ignorance, then what remains is 'what is' without the sheaths of ignorance anymore.

'what is' can never not be, or can never go non existent. It ever is. It can never not be.

'What is not' can never be, or can never go non existent as it never truly was. This is individuality.

The real Doer truly is, 'what is' alone.

The artificial doer is the individuality, when 'what is' is camouflaged by the sheaths of ignorance.

In both case, when there is ignorance and when there is Jnana, truly the real Doer is 'what is' alone.

This individuality what we speak of really is illusion, truly not there, therefore, either the existence of ego or individuality or ego is as good as a mirage.

kartur äjïayä präpyate phalam
karma kià paraà karma tajjaòam

By the will of the Creator, action bears fruit. Is
action, then, supreme? No, it is inert, unconscious.

Here Kartur means the Doer literally, the real Doer revealed in this verse of Bhagavan, is the God, or the Creator or 'what is'

In other words -

individuality alone is

when it is camouflaged with ignorance of sheaths it is merely individuality
when it is free from the ignorance of sheaths, the same individuality is universality, universal consciousness.

We attribute Ignorance and Knowledge, both to same 'Sat' or 'What is'

Its our choice, whether to call 'what is' as individuality or Brahman or Atma or 'what is' or just keep quiet even! :)

--
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 04:16:10 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 04:50:30 PM »

Dear Sanjay,

You say Prarabhdha does all actions for a Brahma Jnani.  No.  A Brahma Jnani has not prarabdha at all.  All the three sanchita,
agami and prarabdha die after realization, ie. when ego dies.  Sri Bhagavan used to say that when a king who has three wives
dies, all the three wives become widows.  One cannot say that one alone does not become widow. 

So to say that Self alone does all the work is the correct situation.  Self or God is ever in the Heart of the Brahma Jnani.
He does all the work for a Brahma Jnani who has no mind, ego or doership.  As Nagaraj said he is in turiya state, where
everything is like a dream. Even his wakeful state is long dream, that is all.  One Westerner joked to Sri Bhagavan saying
that it is like somnambulism i.e. doing activities in a sleep.  Sri Bhagavan said:  In a way, yes.

Arunachala Siva.     

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 05:25:09 PM »
Quote
You say Prarabhdha does all actions for a Brahma Jnani.  No.  A Brahma Jnani has not prarabdha at all.  All the three sanchita,
agami and prarabdha die after realization, ie. when ego dies.  Sri Bhagavan used to say that when a king who has three wives
dies, all the three wives become widows.  One cannot say that one alone does not become widow. 

Jnani does not "own" / "perform" prarabdha - Jnani, the self, owns / has nothing - let alone prarbdha. But in seers eye there is prarabdha as in Bhagawan "suffering from cancer" according to seers. As explained below by Bhagawan.

Talk 115

Mr. M. Frydman: Even without any initial desires there are some
strange experiences for us. Wherefrom do they arise?

M.: The desire may not be there now. Enough if it was there before.
Though forgotten by you now it is bearing fruit in due course.
That is how the jnani is said to have prarabdha left for him. Of
course it is only according to others’ point of view.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 05:33:50 PM by sanjaya_ganesh »
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sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Vedanta questions
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 05:30:39 PM »
On 2.8.1939, Sri Annamalai Swami himself asked Bhagavan Ramana:

"Bhagavan!  You have said that once a person abides in Jnana, he
has no three karmas, Prarabdha, Agami and Sanchita.  But Kaivalya
Navaneetam says that even a Jnani has to undergo the effects of
Prarabhda.  How is it?"

Bhagavan Ramana replied:

"Since Prarabdha has been declared to a person even before his
attaining Jnana, the onlookers say that a Jnani should also undergo
the effects of Prarabdha.  There are several examples given in
scriptures.  1. Like an arrow that had left the bow upon a direction.
The arrow will hit even a cow in place of a tiger, even though the cow
was not at all to be injured.  2.  Like an electric fan, which revolves
a few rotations, even after electric connection is switched off.  3. The
burnt rope also looks like a good rope, but is not useful.  4. Even the
trunk of the tree which remains after being cut off, looks green but
will not grow.  5. The roasted seeds look like any other seeds, but
will not grow when planted on the soil.

"The Jnani's Prarabhda is also like these five examples.  In Jnani's
look, there is no prarabdha for him, but onlookers observe that he
is experiencing prarabdha."


-Sanjay.
Salutations to Bhagawan