Author Topic: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa  (Read 78300 times)

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2008, 02:39:17 AM »
I notice that many followers of Advaita mix the positions proper for paramarthika with those proper for vyavaharika level.
Such mixing leads to claims that purity leads us away from Advaita and that linga sarira does not matter in Advaita. The unreality
of the world is a paramarthika satya. It is not true from the point of view of vyavaharika.

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2008, 11:45:39 PM »
Dear Silence,

      Yes, from the point of view of vyavaharika level you can interpret the word unreal to mean transitory. From the point of view of paramarthika I believe that the universe and its living beings do not exist. I am also glad that you feel your mind! I also agree with you that, 'the root of the problem is mental identification with mind and body  ... We have to see the problem and eliminate it. So we need not eliminate mind ... nor eliminate the body ... we need to eliminate identification with these.'.

      My problem is with your statement, 'Don't touch any of these ... just curl back into the Consciousness ... and then, the body, subtle body and mind are where they are... you are pure witness of them all !'  Surely you can see that your advice not to touch any of these directly contradicts your statement,'Chitta Suddhi is not "Controlling Mind" ... it is purification ...'. How would you purify your chitta without 'touching' it? I know you have argued that purification means,'not identifying with all these ... That is all ... Nothing else what so ever. A mind that does not identify "I" with body , subtle body and mind is simply the mind that is pure... coz it works right way.'  What I am saying is that it is not possible for a mind full of lust, greed, anger, jealousy, ego, deception etc to not identify with the sthula and linga sarira.

     No spiritual practice will succeed unless you cleanse your chitta of lust, greed, anger, jealousy, ego, deception etc. Such a cleansing will automatically open your Ajna Chakra which is the seat of chitta!  It doesn't matter whether you use the path of enquiry or the path of Yoga or any other path to cleans your mind.

    You have stated that,'No Ajna chakra, no Pranayama, pratyahara etc... All that is futile waste of time. Someone who is not convinced will do them to learn they are waste of time ! [Pranayama can have physical benefits not ... spiritual]'. Some people might think these are waste of time. Then there are others who do not find these waste of time. It all depends on one's experience.

Regards

Gangajal

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2008, 03:53:11 AM »
Dear Silence,
   
 Let me point to the following points in 'Genuine directions to the true seeker(3)' posted by Subramanian:

29. Heart is the temple and seat of God.

30. The first lesson of the sannyasis is to keep a pure heart.

A pure heart is the minimum requirement for spiritual practice to succeed. This pure heart is attained by Chittasuddhi. The seat of Chitta is Ajna Chakra. So one can NOT avoid cleaning the linga sarira in any spiritual practice.

Regards

Gangajal

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2008, 08:42:48 AM »
Linga Sarira is a reflecting medium of Pure conscious being.At present that mirror is ridden with dust of tendencies.
Tendencies persists only with our encouragement to them.The very attending to the tendencies is to give them
strength.Whatever the spiritual practice one has to withdraw attending to the tendencies and clean te mirror of
the mind so that there is exact reflection of pure conscious being in it.In self-enquiry we attend to the source of
the mind rther than the contents of the mind.Once we stop attending to the contents of the mind their grip on
the mind becomes less and less,finally the contents die a natural death because of lack of food supply,their food
being attention.Unless the mirror of the mind is cleaned reflection of Pure conscious beig in it is not possible.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2008, 11:41:04 AM »
Dear srkudai, gangajal and others,

Bhagavan says, that when we obtain the thing that we desired or
when something bad happens to the thing that we hated, the
mind goes inwards and experiences the bliss. (Who am I?)
All the emotions, good and bad, on culmination get only the bliss
of the Self.  But this is temprorary, bliss.  After one such attainment
of bliss, we go to something else.  Like a man suffering in the scroching
sun, going to the tree shade, and again coming out to the schorching
sun!  (Again, Who am I?)  Once we know, how to remain in the shade,
permanently, that is Jnana.

Arunachala Siva.

ramanaduli

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2008, 11:33:09 PM »
Dear sir
I a new to this foru. It is very interesting and good to learn, Recently I saw one video of Rajammal from Rajapalayam who
saw many siddas, yagna and Sri bhagavan in her vision. Really very higher soul she is.

Ramanaduli

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2008, 11:40:24 PM »
Linga Sarira is a reflecting medium of Pure conscious being.At present that mirror is ridden with dust of tendencies.
Tendencies persists only with our encouragement to them.The very attending to the tendencies is to give them
strength.Whatever the spiritual practice one has to withdraw attending to the tendencies and clean te mirror of
the mind so that there is exact reflection of pure conscious being in it.In self-enquiry we attend to the source of
the mind rther than the contents of the mind.Once we stop attending to the contents of the mind their grip on
the mind becomes less and less,finally the contents die a natural death because of lack of food supply,their food
being attention.Unless the mirror of the mind is cleaned reflection of Pure conscious being in it is not possible.

Absolutely wonderful, DRPVSSNRAJU! You have very clearly made the point I was trying to make.

Regards

Gangajal

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2008, 12:18:49 AM »
Dear Silence,
      Yes, what you have written is theoretically correct.However, your advice to 'Correct the cause, not the symptoms.', seems to me
not to be practical. I think the symptoms also need to be treated. Otherwise the patient may die! One has to first cleanse the mirror of the
heart. Otherwise it is impossible to attain Self realization.

Regards

Gangajal

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2008, 12:04:28 PM »
Dear gangajal, I agree with skrudai, that, it is the cause that
one should correct and not the symptoms, even though the
process is very very difficult and is hard to put into practice.

I wrote sometime back, about a man who had monkey around his
neck and did not know how to get rid of it.  One doctor said,
"you sedate the monkey so that the monkey will not trouble you."
Another said, 'i shall sedate you so that you will not be worrying
about the monkey."  The third one, who came, cut the knot
that was tying the monkey with the man and the man was free!
Later, the man came to the third doctor and said, 'I am a little
restless becuase the monkey is no longer there and I was so
much used to it."  Then, the docor painted a monkey picture
on his chest and said, "Here is your monkey and be happy."

All English medicines correct the symptoms.  If there is a head
give a pain killer.  If there is insomonia, give sleeping tablet.
But native Indian medicines attacked the cause.  Even though
the process is difficult and takes a long time, the cure is
permanent.

Arunachala Siva.   

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2008, 02:18:26 AM »
Dear Subramanian, Silence,

         Most people fail to find the cause. This is true even for the vast majority of monks. This is
the reason why most monks fail to get ultimate realization.

         In fact all that spiritual practices do is to purify our hearts, i.e., treat the symptoms. Very few people can
treat the cause of their symptom. One reason why they fail is actually stated in the Upanishads:

"That Self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much
learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. The Self
chooses him as his own.
"(Mundaka Upanishad III.2.3)

Self realization is a gift of the Atman. No one can attain it through one's own effort. What one can do on one's
own effort (even here help from Guru is useful) is to purify one's heart.  So if Atman has not chosen you then no
human effort to treat the cause will succeed.

Another reason is time. If the time is not right the spiritual aspirant will not succeed. I have posted below Vyasa's lecture on
the importance of time:

No man can acquire anything by his own acts or by sacrifices and worship. No
man can give anything to a fellow man. Man acquires everything through Time.
The Supreme Ordainer has made the course of Time the means of acquisition.
By mere intelligence or study of the scriptures, men, if Time be unfavorable,
cannot acquire any earthly possession. Sometimes an ignorant fool may succeed
in winning wealth. Time is the efficacious means for the accomplishment of
all acts. During times of adversity, neither science, nor incantations, nor
drugs, yield any fruits. In times, however, of prosperity, those very things,
properly applied, become efficacious and bear success. By Time the winds blow
violently; by Time the clouds become rain charged; by Time tanks become
adorned with lotuses of different kinds; by Time trees in the forest become
decked with flowers. By Time nights become dark or lighted. By Time the moon
becomes full. If the Time for it does not come, trees do not bear flowers and
fruits. If the Time for it does not come, the currents of rivers do not
become fierce. Birds and snakes and deer and elephants and other animals
never become excited when the Time for it does not come. If the Time for it
does not come, women do not conceive. It is with Time that winter, and summer,
and the rainy seasons come. If the Time for it does not come, no one is born
and no one dies. If the Time does not come, the infant does not acquire the
power of speech. If the Time does not come, one does not acquire youth. It is
with Time that the seed sown puts forth its sprouts. If the Time does not
come, the Sun does not appear above the horizon, nor, when the Time for it
does not come, does he repair to the Asta hills. If the Time for it does not
come, the Moon does not wax nor wane, nor the ocean, with its high billows,
rise and ebb. .... The irresistible course of Time affects all mortals. All
earthly things, ripened by Time, suffer destruction. Some slay some men. The
slayers again are slain by others. This is the language of the world. Really,
however, no one slays and no one is slain. Some one thinks men slay (their
fellow-men). Another thinks men do not slay. The truth is that the birth and
destruction of all creatures have been ordained to happen in consequence of
their very nature. ... This body even is not mine. Nothing in this earth is
mine. Or, the things of this earth belong as much to others as to me. The
wise, seeing this, do not suffer themsleves to be deluded. There are thousands
of causes for sorrow, and hundreds of causes for joy. These everyday affect
the ignorant only, but not him that is wise. These in course of Time, become
objects of affection or aversion, and appearing as bliss or woe revolve (as if
in a wheel) for affecting living creatures.

(Mahabharat: Santi Parva Section XXV)


Regards

Gangajal

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2008, 08:01:14 AM »
Dear Gangajal,
                   Three things are required for self-realistion.1)swaprayatnam---Effort to know the Truth.All spiritual disciplines come under this category.
                                                                               2)Eswara kataksham---God's grace.
                                                                                3)kala Paripakvam------Favorable time.Unless time is favorable to us we cannot do anything.   
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2008, 10:55:46 AM »
Dear Gangajal and Raju,  Three things as you has said are
essential for attaining the Self.  Bhagavan has also said that
the desisreless actions, bhakti, raja yoga ---  all these can only
purify the heart.  But Atman can be attained only through self
enquiry, the jnana marga.  Again the Self can be attained only
through the grace of the Self.  Here, what you have said is
correct, that is, the Isavara, has to choose the one to whom
He can reveal Himself.   That is why, I mentioned earlier in
some other post, that the symptoms can be removed to obtain
chitta shuddhi.  But the Self realization can be attained only
through annihiilation of the cause, the 'I'.  Of course, the Self
should choose you. 

Saint Manikkavachakar has said in Siva Puranam, (Decad of
Siva's immmeasurable antiquity):

Avan arulale avan thaal vanangi.....

Praying His feet through His grace.

In Reflections of the golden eyes, I mentioned about somebody,
who got Self realization, by Bhagavan's stern look for one minute!
To Lakshmanaswami, He spoke only a few words!

That is Bhagavan's choice and grace!

Arunachala Siva.

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2008, 12:08:39 PM »
Disidentifying with the nonself amounts to attaining the self because you are already that.Spiritual discipline is a process of negation of nonself
rather than attaining the self.
pvssnraju

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2008, 10:57:44 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

     What you have written here, "But Atman can be attained only through self enquiry, the jnana marga. " is the standard Kevala Advaita position. I am posting below a Sri Ramakrishna quote which does not agree with the Kevala Advaita position:

"Bhaktiyoga is the religion for this age. But that does not mean that the lover
of God will reach one goal and the philosopher (Jnani) and worker (Karmayogi)
another. It means that if a person seeks the knowledge of Brahman he can
attain It by following the path of Bhakti too.
God, who loves His devotee,
can give him the knowledge of Brahman if He so desires.


But the Bhakta wants to realize the Personal God endowed with form and talk
to Him. He seldom seeks the knowledge of Brahman. But God, who does everything
at His pleasure, can make His devotee the heir to His infinite glories if it
pleases Him.
He gives His devotee both the love of God and knowledge of
Brahman. If one is able to reach Calcutta, one can see the Maidan and the
musuem and other places too. The thing is how to reach Calcutta."

--- Sri Ramakrishna

gangajal

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Re: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2008, 11:01:47 PM »
Disidentifying with the nonself amounts to attaining the self because you are already that.Spiritual discipline is a process of negation of nonself
rather than attaining the self.

Dear DRPVSSNRAJU,

Yes! Yes! Yes!

No amount of spiritual practice can yield Ultimate Realization. All that spiritual practices do is reduce the obstacle somewhat. As both you and Subramanian have written there are 2 other factors, Atman choosing and time.

Regards

Gangajal