Author Topic: The nature of Jnana  (Read 4641 times)

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
The nature of Jnana
« on: March 11, 2013, 09:54:17 AM »
These questions have been carried over from another thread which has become congested.

I request  forum members to give clear-cut and concise answers to these questions.
1. Exactly what type of understanding prevents a jnani from becoming a robber?

2. What is that freedom inspite of having which and becoming fearless a jnani does not rob?

3. What is the nature of that detachment which prevents a jnani from robbing?

4. What is the relationship between vyavaharika and paramarthika? Does paramarthika understanding gets reflected in vyavaharika life or are the two completely detached?

A jnani is anyway always detached and sees everything as a dream.

The questions may appear simple but it contains the essence of misunderstanding about jnana.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

sanjaya_ganesh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 10:12:27 AM »
My answer to all question is same. We operate on 3 levels of truth - Vyavaharika, Paramarthika and Prathibasika. Jnanis operate on only one level of truth - Paramarthika. So the karma emanating from other levels just dont exists for them - in this case robbery. There is none to rob.

-Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 10:25:34 AM »
Seeking answers is samsara, surrendering all the questions is wisdom. Remaining calm and quiet in uncertainty as it is, is peaceful.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 10:34:38 AM »
In which level does eating, drinking, writing to forums and doing job happens for a jnani?
In the same level why can't robbing happen? Or can it also happen?
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 11:20:45 AM »
Thanks Tushinam,

I appreciate your precise answer without any sort of round-about movement.

When a jnani sees everything as a dream, who gave the rule book of dharma and adharma to a jnani? And what is the guarantee that the rule book is universal and not subjective.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 12:28:31 PM »
What is the impurity which impels one to steal (only for basic livelihood), which the jnani does not have because of his pure mind?
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 01:39:01 PM »
Here stealing was not for getting pleasure but for basic livelihood, like one works in office for earning money.

If in the life of a jnani so many ideas can pass in the course of writing in forums and doing one's job, what is so special about this idea of stealing? It will also come and go.

Why is this idea considered as an impurity while others are not?
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

sanjaya_ganesh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 01:43:08 PM »
Why stealing? Lord Krishna says even kill your relatives and guru :). Of course, stealing is far lesser a crime than killing own guru and relatives.

:)
Sanjay.
Salutations to Bhagawan

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4007
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 02:13:18 PM »
Friends,
Yesterday was shivaratri and some would have chanted Sri Rudra-particularly these lines-Third anuvaka,verses 2 and 3:
Quote
nama kakubAya nishanginE sthenAnAm pathayE NamO-Salutation to the leader (kakubha), the holder of the quiver, to the lord of thieves salutation!
NamO nishangina ishudimatE taskarAnAm pathayE namO-Salutation to the holder of the quiver, to the owner of the quiver, to the lord of robbers salutation!

Good discussion but no real answers are fortcoming yet! :)

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 03:04:42 PM »
have not really followed these discussions much... but i felt to share one thought that occurred on the subject of stealing etc.

Even if not completely, if we realise to a certain extant, what really there really to claim as ours? absolutely nothing! Even, we cannot claim our own body as ours, it does not listens to us, it gets tired, it gets diseases etc... what belongs to us? only if something belongs to us, is there some possibility of stealing, or being stolen from. Suppose realizing that nothing really is ours, and if we steal from others with aspiration to make it ours, still it does not become ours.

We are absolutely hopelessly helpless, we got to just repose, resign!

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4007
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »
Friends,
So,are we totally convinced that there is no Isvara,Divine will,etc? :)
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2013, 03:14:44 PM »
So,are we totally convinced that there is no Isvara,Divine will,etc? :)

Sri Ravi,

:) I felt, we don't even have a 'will' to claim as ours as well... there is only Divine Will...

whenever the notion of 'my will' sprouts and imagines as itself operating, it results in samasara dukha or sukha.

Off late, i am coming to terms that even the false notion of 'my-will' also is His own divine leela or play.

We have no option but to accept that we are just puppets... just puppets... just puppets...

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4007
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2013, 03:26:27 PM »
Nagaraj/Friends,
Good response Nagaraj.Here is an Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
""A man who has realized God shows certain characteristics. He becomes like a child or a madman, or an inert thing or a ghoul. Further, he is firmly convinced that he is the machine and God is its Operator, that God alone is the Doer and all others are His instrument.
"God has put you in the world. What can you do about it? Resign everything to Him.Surrender yourself at His feet. Then there will be no more confusion. Then you will realize that it is God who does everything. All depends on 'the will of Rama'."
Story of "the will of Rama"
A DEVOTEE: "What is that story about 'the will of Rama'?"
MASTER: "In a certain village there lived a weaver. He was a very pious,soul. Everyone trusted him and loved him. He used to sell his goods in the market-place. When a customer asked him the price of a piece of cloth, the weaver would say: 'By the will of Rama the
price of the yarn is one rupee and the labour four annas ; by the will of Rama the profit is two annas . The price of the cloth, by the will of Rama, is one rupee and six annas .' Such was the people's faith in the weaver that the customer would at once pay the price and take
the cloth. The weaver was a real devotee of God. After finishing his supper in the evening,he would spend long hours' in the worship hall meditating on God and chanting His name and glories. Now, late one night the weaver couldn't get to sleep. He was sitting in the
worship hall, smoking now and then, when a band of robbers happened to pass that way.They wanted a man to carry their goods and said to the weaver, 'Come with us.' So saying, they led him off by the hand. After committing a robbery in a house, they put a load of
things on the weaver's head, commanding him to carry them. Suddenly the police arrived and the robbers ran away. But the weaver, with his load, was arrested. He was kept in the lock-up for the night. Next day he was brought before the magistrate for trial. The villagers learnt what had happened and came to court. They said to the magistrate, 'Your Honour, this man could never commit a robbery.' Thereupon the magistrate asked the weaver to make his statement.
'The weaver said: 'Your Honour, by the will of Rama I finished my meal at night. Then by the will of Rama I was sitting in the worship hall. It was quite late at night by the will of Rama. By the will of Rama I had been thinking of God and chanting His name and glories,
when by the will of Rama a band of robbers passed that way. By the will of Rama they dragged me with them; by the will of Rama they committed a robbery in a house; and by the will of Rama they put a load on my head. Just then, by the will of Rama the police
arrived, and by the will of Rama I was arrested. Then by the will of Rama the police kept me in the lock-up for the night, and this morning by the will of Rama I have been brought before Your Honour.' The magistrate realized that the weaver was a pious man and ordered his release. On his way home the weaver said to his friends, 'By the will of Rama I have
been released.'

The Reason why Logical mind  struggles to give an answer is that it is yet to recognize the 'Will of Rama';it can still think in terms of the Known,in terms of the ordinary concept of Dharma and is unable to go beyond it.
We will look at the fundamental questions posed by our friend silentgreen a little further ,based on what Sri Ramakrishna has taught.
Namaskar.

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 03:48:05 PM »
If jnana is simply watching a set of thoughts or ideas flowing by without any attachment, where is the requirement of grouping thoughts based on dharma / adharma or himsa / ahimsa? How does such thoughts get special categories?
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: The nature of Jnana
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 03:54:42 PM »
Heart warming story Sri Ravi,

It is this pinch of sugar of sweet Bhakti, or love of God, that makes Jnana an experience of bliss, of krutagnate, gratitude for being there, for being alive for being live to experience it, know it, feel it. Isn't this the most wonderful thing, after all?

Sri Silentgreen, as reflected earlier, i truly have come to significantly realise that seeking answers is the birth of samsara, because every question takes birth with an answer already with it, this is the cycle of samsara in the form of questions and answers! Every Answers gives birth to Questions and every Questions gives birth to Answers. The Master Gave a wonderful light here, by showing us the way, by asking ourselves to whom are these questions and answers are arising and reaching.

Therefore, Any answers that we may get here are only vyavaharika, as in a eating in a dream. upon waking, the hunger does not get satiated. I give some answers from intellectual level for my own satiation. But i do not really know from where these questions have sprung and their background discussions. I give an open responses .

Quote
1. Exactly what type of understanding prevents a jnani from becoming a robber?

Jnani robs 'knowing' All the objects in the world belongs to God, and not any human beings who claim things as theirs. hence He become  the greatest of robbers and yet remains free from the stain of a 'robber'.

Quote
2. What is that freedom inspite of having which and becoming fearless a jnani does not rob?

The Freedom which the Jnani 'knows' is that he absolutely has no freedom at all, and hence He is made to Rob when He makes him rob. He does not shoulder the burden.

Quote
3. What is the nature of that detachment which prevents a jnani from robbing?

The detachment is not knowing the meaning of 'robbing' Though he robs he robs not and though he not robs, yet he robs. He is carefree, after thoroughly casting off the burdens of 'me' 'my' 'i' and 'you' he' the' and realising only 'That' alone is.

Quote
4. What is the relationship between vyavaharika and paramarthika? Does paramarthika understanding gets reflected in vyavaharika life or are the two completely detached?

There is no vyavaharika or paramarthika for a Jnani. These exist only from onlookers point of view, for a jnani, vyavaharika and paramarthika are just sounds. However, we may say, Jnani answers the questions of people, and usually they are in vyavaharika - again this is only recorded by the person asking question and never the Jnani.



These are just personal thoughts, just for reflection, i do not know their validity, and hence do not take any ownership for these views to entertain any discussions and debates of rights and wrongs. Members are free to take what feels right and reject what seems wrong and proceed in their spiritual antarmukha - journeys.

Thanks for the opportunity to reflect.

:)

« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 03:57:16 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta