Author Topic: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?  (Read 6523 times)

mcozire

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Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« on: March 09, 2013, 04:42:41 PM »
Hi there everyone!

Today I woke up feeling a little 'lost' haha, I think I feel lost most days but not in a bad way if you know what I mean.

So my question for today can kind of be summarized in the topic name, but I might just ask one or two other questions which are related.


I'm using Sri Ramankrishnas example of a sugar cube in relation to merging with the Self versus serving Krishna, or in his case the divine mother.

So I am wondering firstly to what extent does god exist in form to serve? Are there actual physical gods that you can meet and talk with and love, and they love you back and take care of you? Like Krishna, Jesus.

You see I ask this because, Sri Ramana Marharsi seems to me to be either your off or on if you know what I mean. Ramana says to be absolutely still, not meditate, not do anything and the Self will shine forth as it is. However to most people, as it has been noted in other talks with Ramana, this is impossible, then this is where the 'Who am I? comes in. Am I correct so far?

So here I don't see much room there to be 'in the world, but not of it' , I mean I can't see how I could walk around all day and be still at the same time :/ ? Or how I could walk around all day asking 'Who is this 'I'?,  or 'Who is it that is having these thoughts' every single time I have a thought.

It seems right now to me that I feel like I'm really between two worlds, one where it is not there, and the other where it is. One where stillness and transcendence appear sometimes, and the other where I have to try go about my day and figure out what I am doing with my life at all. :/

Is there grace/help for the direction of my life from Krishna the personal god, or is the only way to abide in the self?

Confused today.

:D

Thanks for listen to my confused mumbleings.


Subramanian.R

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 05:13:22 PM »
Dear mcozire,

In pure Advaita, one (self)  should become the sugar cube (the Self).  In other branches like Vishitadvaita, and dwaita - they
want to eat the sugar cube (Narayana)

Becoming sugar cube (the Self) is merging in the One.

Arunachala Siva.   
   

Jewell

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 11:36:01 PM »
Dear Mark,

Inded,that is dilema for all seekers. So far i feel,there is really no much difference betwean two paths. In the end,we all are devoted to something. Who am I,and Self enquiry is the way to exsamine ourselves,our drives,motives,feelings,and in the end to abide in the Self,to Be. In fact,we Are all the time,only we dont make much attention. So self inquiry is Self attention,awarenes of our own Self. And i think we can do that no matter if we are devoted to God,some aspect of it. The Self Abindance comes from the love of God. I see it that way. If we are drown to some image,we dont need to give it up. Why should we? It is not in contradiction with Bhagavan teachings. Infact He theaches devotion also. I somehow think that this is fusion of all paths,and all are interrelated. There is Ultimate Truth that there is nothing but Self. And there is relative world with all living Gods,who are ever there to guide us,to give us support. What is Bhagavan if not God Himself. And there is Krishna,and Jesus. We dont need to abandone our Ideal. Whatever we chose,in the end,all will come to One Truth only. There is nothing but the Self.
Like we do our sadhana,and in the same time 'live 'life,and do whatever is natural. I think life is great occasion for sadhana. Life Is sadhana. We can question Who are we whenever is chance,whenever we can examine our feelings and actions. Or simply think of God all the time. But that is kind of same thing actually. Infact,all our struggle to chose this and that,to do this or that,is sadhana itself. It is one and same world. And ultimatievly,one and the same dream. And this doership is ego product itself.
Like Bhagavan said,it is hard to give whole attention at once,but with time,that gets easier.  For japa,thinling on God,pure devotion,we need same amount of attention,and its not easy too.  To do all what we need to do,and be attentive how much possible. It only depends what is our own way,and all have their own,unique way.
So be a suggar cube,or eats it,amounts on same,suggar cube. :)

This is my thinking.

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 11:40:35 PM by Jewell »

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 06:56:37 AM »
Mark

Everyone goes thru this dilemma - not new for you. So dont worry. Here is my scoop on this. Understand that everything is SELF around you or the supreme truth or the supreme brahman or whatever you call it. Once you are convinced of it - how does it matter whether you worship Krishna or Siva. When you see them - you see them as pure Brahman in a form. Then you wont get into issues like Saiva - Vaishnava fights :) just because you love Krishna and someone else says Siva is more powerful.

Sadhana / Practice is most important in establishing this. Dont get settled down to some fancy ideas like - Ok. Siva is my personal God. I will settle with it. It is a journey with no end. I say "no end" because the person seeking an end disappears in that journey. So dont get settled down to fancy ideas. I am saying this because I travelled this path. And still the form of Siva holds a special place in my mind. But then each time I think of Siva - a background says, it is Supreme Self and nothing else. When I meditate of Siva, I end up meditating on the Aum emnanating from Siva. All dramas of mind - but that is how mind is now behaving :)

yes - these are all good sadhanas. It is better for mind to be focussed on one form than wandering around in so many - of course. But then you have to move on. Not because, I or Ravi or Udai or anyone here says - but because you realized it yourself. So go ahead, travel the path if you like to eat sugar cube - but always have the Supreme Truth in mind.

-Sanjay
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 06:58:38 AM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

deepa

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2013, 08:29:33 AM »
Everyone goes thru this dilemma - not new for you.

Yes, Arjuna had this dilemma in the BG chapter 12. You are in good company, Mark   ;D

BG 12.1 - Arjuna said: Dear Lord, Who is better versed in Yoga - the ones who worship You in constant devotion with your form or the ones who worship You as the formless?

Krishna kinda dodges from giving an absolute answer. First, He says that people who are steady and intense in their pursuit will reach Him.

BG 12.5, he says that for those who are still strongly identifying with their bodies, it is more difficult to realize the formless God than the One with form
Kleshodhi-katharah-stheshaam Avyakthaa-saktha Chethasaam
Avyakthaa Hi Gathir Duhkham Deha Vadbhira-vaapyate

For most of us, this means we still need a form - whether it be one of our ishta devatas or form of Guru like Bhagawan or Arunachala.






mcozire

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 10:24:57 PM »
Thank you so much everyone for these replies. I really consider them a blessing considering just last night I was left awake thinking on the differences between Jesus Christ, and Krishna, and wondering who is better to call on. So it was quite a relief to read all these replies just today! :D

Sanjaya I found your post very funny because it was pretty much exactly what I was doing last night :) .. I did in the end kind of come to the intuitive feeling that both Jesus and Krishna ended in the same place, and I found myself witnessing the mess the mind was making of the whole situation, none the less the mind still had its opinions!

Jewell thank you for you lengthy and informative reply! You mention life is a great occasion for sadhana. I have also been wondering this, is not life the only place we can do this? Like, is this conscious life the only place where we can actually understand the whole of truth? Like we can't seem to be able to do this in sleeping life. Does this make this reality more real?

Thank you Subramania and deepa for your replies! Thank you deepa for reminding me that we are all in good company! :) Speaking of the Bhagavad Gita, I ordered my first translation of it! I know we are suppose to be practicing Dispassion, but I am excited :D I got the Swami Prabhavananda version of it called, Bhagavad Gita - The Song Of God. Do you ye think this is a good version, there were so many to choose from I was getting dizzy.

Thanks again for all your replies, came at the most perfect time.

God Bless.
Mark

deepa

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 02:01:31 AM »
I got the Swami Prabhavananda version of it called, Bhagavad Gita - The Song Of God. Do you ye think this is a good version, there were so many to choose from I was getting dizzy.


Mark,
I have not read this particular version, but have skimmed his Viveka chudamani work. Swami Prabhavananda is from the Ramakrishna order, so the interpretations must be Advaitic.

Personally, I benefit from listening along with reading.. luckily, we have many commentaries/discourses online. Anybody from Chinmayananda lineage (such as Arsha Vidya, Swami Paramarthananda, Swami Omkaranandha, etc) or from the Ramakrishna order will be a good start. Swami Paramarthananda is a favorite, I believe, for some of our forum members. If you're interested, I and many others can point you to the files online.

To put in a plug, Chinmaya offers online or postal course for BG. It is a methodical study, but some of my co-satsangists ( :D) have found it helpful.
http://www.chinfo.org/courses/bhagavadgita/

All the best,
Deepa



sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 10:02:27 AM »
BG by Chinmayananda - the complete 56 DVD volume (audio) is available for download from http://kat.ph/bhagavad-gita-compele-english-discourses-swami-chinmayananda-t1064828.html

This is a good start - but TRUTH will not come out very clearly in this - I must say. But this will prepare you a lot. Shankara Bhashyam is my favorite - where Truth will come out crystal clear.

Again, my musings - The biggest hurdle to moksha is your desire for moksha. What is it that remains even after you overcome that desire? Do you feel helpless / depressed without even that desire? Who is feeling so?

-Sanjay.
Salutations to Bhagawan

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2013, 10:29:47 AM »
Quote
Shankara bhasya is the best, but someone has to explain it. Paramarthananda ji's lectures on this , if they are available ... should be good.

Very true. And in Malayalam - I can recommend "Shivaravinda Mahabhashyam" by Late Prof. G. Balakrishnan Nair - which is the most honest translation of Shankara Bhashyam by an enlightened vedanta Scholar. Nothing but the truth will be repeated all over this mahabhashyam by Prof.

BTW, a light story. Someone asked Prof. GB - "Sir, you are repeating the same message again and again in your speech and Bhashyam - similar to Ishaavasyamidam Sarvam / tattvamasi. Why repeat the same message umpteen times?". Prof. lightly answered - "Anything else I say will be a lie. Truth is one. Lies are so many everything else. Which one you want to hear - one truth or many lies?" :)

Sanjay.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:31:23 AM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

ksksat27

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 10:45:56 AM »
"So I am wondering firstly to what extent does god exist in form to serve? Are there actual physical gods that you can meet and talk with and love, and they love you back and take care of you? Like Krishna, Jesus."


Dear Mark

The answer to above lines is Big YES.   I am not telling this but Maharishee tells the same.  Whem somebody asked about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa talking and laughing with God,  Maharishee answered that it is quite possible.   He further said that it is possible just like we talk with each other and as real as this world.

When asked why it is not happening to the questioner , Maharishee replied that it requires meditation and persistence.

In other occasions also,  he has confirmed that the dream visions will later become real visiions of God.

My advise to you is,  dont discontinue your personal God meditation for the sake of self enquiry.

Do both. 

Importantly, these questions can be asked in forum to relieve the mental stress you are going through but dont expect an answer from any of us.  Because our answer is not tailored to your Soul.  We are not jnanis to advise in such a way to suit your past samskaras.

Neverthless,  Mark,  you have to sit and set right these relationships with Personal God yourself.

It is your universe,  it is only by your strong prayer you can receive the grace of a personal God who can sit with you, laugh with you and sleep with you.  But is quite possible.  It had happened to Papaji one of Ramana Maharishee's famous disciple and advaita teacher.

It had happened to many people like Papa Ramdas who was also a disciple of Maharishee and received his grace.

It will happen to you,  let me tell you this.  Close all doors,  all scriptures,  all outer signs.  Go inside and talk with your personal God.  Offer food and think of Him day and night.  Time and again,  this method of pure bhakthi has proved to work well. 

But if you go to others and ask about personal God, they may say it is all imagination.  But only You can know His grace nobody else.  All these concepts and thinkings are your own formations,  Self will reveal itself very very uniquely to every sadhak .  So you are not left out. 

If Krishna does not come, dont leave him alone,  persist in our request,  in your prayers.  you will suceed.

If not this life,  you may have to come again,  but it is worth the pain. 


These devotional practices will earn lot of merits and later it will reveal itself as Samadhi.  And one has to abide in Samadhi to make it permanent.

Many have done this,  both Vishnu and Shiva devotees and Devi devotees also have done this.

Bamaksheb the famous bengali saint has done this and worshipped Tara devi.

Tukaram has done this with Vitthal Pandurang.

Namdev has done this with Vitthal.

Saint Thyagaraja has done this with Sri Rama.

all the best.


Tukaram Poems » Name of God
Name of God

He who utters the Name of God while walking

gets the merit of a sacr.if/ice at every step

His body becomes a place of pilgrimage.

He who repeats God’s Name while working

            always finds perfect peace.

He who utters the Name of God while eating

            gets the merit of a fast

            even though he has taken his meals.

Even .if/ one were to give in charity

            the whole world encircled by the seas

            it would not equal the merit of repeating the Name,

By the power of the Name

            one will know what cannot be known,

One will see what cannot be seen,

One will speak what cannot be spoken,

One will meet what cannot be met.

Tuka says.

            Incalculable is the gain that comes

            From repeating the Name of God.



When thus I lose myself in Thee, my God,
Then do I see, and know,

That all Thy universe reveals Thy beauty,

All living beings, and all lifeless things,

Exist through Thee.

This whole vast world is but the form

In which Thous showest us Thyself,

Is but the voice
In which Thyself Thou speakest unto us.

What need of words?

Come, Master, come,

And fill me wholly with Thyself.


atmavichar100

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 01:36:12 PM »
Quote
Swami Paramarthananda is a favorite, I believe, for some of our forum members.

With regard to understanding Advaita Texts for me Swami Paramarthananda is the most favorite one .I love listening to his talks and attend his Sunday Gita Satsangs . I love also his clear and correct pronunciation of various Vedantic Texts and Stotras and in fact have developed an interest in Sanskrit Chanting after listening to his Chants and keeping it as my daily Sadhana .
Here is a link to download Swami Paramarthananda's audio lectures :
http://sumukam.wordpress.com/discourses/swami-paramarthananda/
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 02:04:58 PM »
Bhagavatham 11.29.13 says clearly

iti sarvāṇi bhūtāni
mad-bhāvena mahā-dyute
sabhājayan manyamāno
jñānaḿ kevalam āśritaḥ


Gita Chapter 4 verse 33

śreyān dravya-mayād yajñāj
jñāna-yajñaḥ parantapa
sarvaḿ karmākhilaḿ pārtha
jñāne parisamāpyate


Gita Chapter 18 verse 63 (Towards End of Gita - as conclusion)

iti te jñānam ākhyātaḿ
guhyād guhyataraḿ mayā
vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa
yathecchasi tathā kuru


-Sanjay
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 02:16:06 PM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2013, 02:42:38 PM »
:)
Salutations to Bhagawan

deepa

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2013, 07:27:41 PM »
I am loving Atma Bodha.

In our study group, they gave a nice example similar to the "kataka renu" seed (which is like the modern alum which we used to put in murky water to clear it - the alum brings down all the impurities and settles down itself too.)

The other example which they gave was the "pole vault" sport which we see in the Olympics. First, the athlete runs fast with single-pointedness and discipline. Then athlete uses a very long pole to raise himself up to the bar. Once he clears the bar, he drops the pole as it is of no use anymore. Similarly, the jnana that helps us abide in self drops off once the jnana becomes bodha/sphurthi.


Pranam,
Deepa

deepa

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Re: Be a sugar cube, eat a sugar cube?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2013, 07:46:54 PM »
Bhagavatham 11.29.13 says clearly



Sanjayji
Can you please provide translation/explanation along with the Bhagavatham/BG verses? Leaves me wanting to know immediately :) (of course, one can access a ebook or book, but lazy/lack of time sometimes!)

And I agree with Udai-ji - shravanam from a Guru (ideally one who is a renunciate) has more impact than reading. It moves beyond just knowledge-acquisition to being inspired. It creates guru bhakthi along with jnana. It prevents one from wrong understanding and wrong practice. I am lucky to get physical guidance from a total brahma nishta guru, but Swami Paramarthananda/Nochurji/Swami Chinmayanandha/Swami Tejomayanandha are able to create the same magic.

Just fyi, Swami Ishwaranandha (Chinmaya Los Angeles) and Swami Sarveshanandha (Chinmaya Dallas) also do excellent discourses on all Vedantic texts. (you can google for the websites of these chinmaya centers and listen).

As added bonus, Swami Ishwaranandha has a special expertise of bringing out the beauty of the poetry of all 3 languages (Sanskrit, Tamil and English) For example, I learnt from him that "preach comes from prachar", "asset comes from Asthi", "the tamil word kadavul means 'kadai-ul', the One that is the last thing you find when you go into 'ul' yourself"

Happy listening!


Thanks,
Deepa