Author Topic: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?  (Read 13441 times)

Jyoti

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Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« on: August 10, 2013, 02:47:33 AM »
I mean, are they to be regarded as historically confirmed persons?

Ravi.N

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 08:31:43 AM »
Jyothi,
I refer stephen knapps' article.Here is an excerpt:

“The Ramayana is geographically very correct. Every site on Rama's route is still identifiable and has continuing traditions or temples to commemorate Rama's visit. Around 1000 BC or earlier, no writer had the means to travel around the country inventing a story, fitting it into local folklore and building temples for greater credibility."

Please read that article here-Lord Rama fact or fiction:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/lord_rama_fact_or_fiction.htm

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 09:00:26 AM »
Jyothi/Friends,
I will also refer to an interesting Blog of a good friend and his article on Kishkinda,The city of Sugriva,a character in Ramayana.You may read this article here:
http://bhagavan-sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.in/2013/07/kishkindha-sugrivas-great-city.html
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 09:57:35 AM »
Dear Jyoti,

Rama and Krishna are really living persons.  Like Jesus.  But they lived thousands of years before Jesus.

Arunachala Siva. 

Nagaraj

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 11:35:36 AM »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 03:32:29 PM »
I mean, are they to be regarded as historically confirmed persons?

Yes, they are and the living proof is "Ramayana" and "Mahabharata"?. The doubt of Their existence is a doubt in all Vedanta. And the living Vedanta is the most direct and accurate proof for Their existence not only in days of yore but today, right now. The other proof is the great number of devotees who have personal relationship with These Great Avatars.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Jyoti

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 11:56:39 PM »
Is it true that in some Versions of the Ramayana Rama is not an Avatar of Vishnu but an exemplary human being?

Subramanian.R

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 05:51:53 AM »
Dear Jyoti,

Rama was definitely an avatar of Vishnu.  Do not read Hindu puranas through Wikipedia.


Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 07:19:27 AM »
Jyothi,
The Original Ramayana is that of Maharshi Valmiki.It was Maharshi Narada who initiated Valmiki and narrated to him the story of Lord Sri Rama.How he was inspired to compose the Ramayana in poetic form by Lord Brahma,you may read here:
http://www.webonautics.com/mythology/narada_legends.html
Namaskar.

Graham

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 07:34:28 AM »
Dear Jyoti,

Have you read the Srimad Bhagavatham? This was recommended by Bhagavan to devotees.

Its contents including the Uddhava Gita should leave no doubt in your mind as to the reality of Lord Krishna and Rama, because it will move your heart.

You should avoid all opinions on the internet based upon speculation - which often have ulterior motives.

Graham

ksksat27

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2013, 10:00:37 AM »
Adding to the internet ulterior motive,  nowadays it has become fashionable to quote Yoga Vashista just to belittle Lord Rama as a mere human being.

Even in Maharishee's time,  seems someone asked a question to Maharishi like this:

Even Rama who was a dullard only got enlightened by asking questions to his Guru Vashista.

What Maharishee will do with such type of people?  If someone is determined to disbelieve, Maharishee will happily approve it only.

Once to Suri Nagamma,  when she asked some question about Prahlada learning in the womb of his mother,  asked Maharishee how is it possible?

Maharishee replied in the vein that her devotion will only suffer by such doubting questions.

And with a sincere sadhak Annamalai Swami Maharishee clearly ascertained that Lord Rama first appeared as Lord Vishnu with four hands and then later took Lord Rama avatar.

What to do?  People want quotation from vedas for everything?  Vedas will not talk about avatars and the incidents that take place in creation.

The dasa avatars are main avatars -- Maharishee has clearly proclaimed that the bodies of Avatara Purusha will continue until the end of the kalpa like dream bodies.

One who wants to surrender will take the help of any one of these Avatars of Lord and easily cross the ocean.  Because it is easiest and bonafide approach.

What happened to Sabari? She was assured by the sages whom she earlier served that she will meet a divine avatar of Lord Vishnu and thereby get liberated.

And this Lord Rama supposedly in depressing search of his wife encountered Sabari.  Ordinarily mortals in such a situation would have bypassed Sabari telling "you stupid,  I myself lost my wife in kidnap, now I am rushing to search,  is this the time to speak of liberation,  darshan etc. to me,  mind your business"

But what did Lord Rama do?  Having full knowledge that He had a purpose to fullfil some Divine ordainment,  patiently spent time with Sabari, accepted her prasadam and gave her liberation.

Why to take the roundabout ways of doing all this vedic karma,  later vedanta, siddhanta etc.?

Why not take one great incarnation as refuge and finish our karma once and for all? 

And I would agree, Lord Rama is the most mis-interpreted avatara in all eras. 

Someone time ago, someone called the Ahalya episode as only fitting to TV Ramanaya. 

If there is only that much devotion after learning all reverred scriptures, I would say such scholarship is useless.   In recent times Agnihothram Thathaa Chaariyar also started speaking lot of such stuff in public.  What to speak of them?

I can only say this much:

one who wants to see Lord Rama will see by long persistent devotion. Example is Papa Ramadas of Kerala and Papaji of Lucknow.  One who does do this, will not care for other people opinions.

Others will only spend time either by explicitly doubting or by having a hidden doubt of whether Lord Rama will appear now or not.

There is an incident from Jillelamudi Amma's life.  (not exact words but in same vien taken from Mother of All book by Richard Schiffman)

There was a staunch devotee of Lord Rama who did lot of Rama nama japa earlier.  He was a good devotee who wanted to see Lord Rama.  In due course,  this devotee had to become a house bound invalid having lost a portion of body consiciousness in some paralysis.

Not one or two years,  for some 10 to 16 years, he was bed ridden for most of the time. But he never complained simply kept on praying to Lord Rama.

Jillelamudi Amma in her unexpected visit,  to a neighbouring house, suddenly entered this house.

She started serving this old man, when the old man suddenly with folded hands worshipped Amma seeing Lord Rama's form in Her.

She told him words of comfort and also told that She has come in the right moment at last.

Few days later the devotee passed away.

That is Nishkamya bhakthi.    Guru will come on his own and feed whatever has to be given for such a strong devotee.

I have seen a case in my boyhood life itself.

In 20th century,  in my past village Thiruchendurai, there was one person called Kuppu Mama.

Kuppu in his early years in that village,  (around 1940s I believe) contracted Leprosy.  It was a terrible disease and this person cried a lot and wanted to end his life.

There was Sri Rama Navami ten days utsavam that was due in few days by the time all these disease started to develop.

The first day utsavam of Rama Navami in the village was sponsored by one Venkatrama iyer. 
Next day another person will sponsor and like this ten days will be celebrated.

There will be feast for speical invitees in the sponsor's house which will be partaken by the bhajan singers.  For everybody else prasadam and lot of sweet items will be served in temple itself.

This Venaktrama Iyer consoled Kuppu and asked Kuppu to give his body and mind fully in service of Lord Rama and pray to him for curing the disease.

Kuppu mama somehow got a very deep love and devotion & started praying to Lord Rama as advised. 

He did as much service as he could without coming into contact with others.
Days passed,  months passed, and years passed,  the disease slowly started getting cured.

Finally Kuppu mama having some resemblace of minor nature in his limbs,  got cured completely of the disease .

From that day,  he only prayed Lord Rama, Sitha, Lakshmana and Hanuman.

When asked to enter Shiva temples ,  he will enter only after great hesitation.  He learnt all the
Marudanallur Bhajana Sampradaya Songs of Lord rama by-heart and started singing them in the ten day utsavam every year.  For him Lord Rama's was only the pastime worth taking about.

I have seen his bhajan performance in my boyhood times.

In the excellent spirit of his pure devotion,  sometimes during the 10th day main bhajan which will happen throughout the night, he will form two rows of bhajan singers.

One row will start a beautiful keerthana or a song only of Lord Rama by Purandara dasa, Thyagaraja or other saints. Once finished, another row must start a song only on Krishna. 

In their competitional mind set,  the whole assembly will be spell bound by the beautiful performance accompanied by other music instruments.

And our Kuppu will always sit in the Lord Rama Team.

One year,  when he became very old,  he was asked to speak a little about Lord Rama after the 10th day main festival.

I was listening to his small speech in tamil , I was in 9th standard that time. I re-collect this after a long time,  thanks to this thread.

"I Kuppu,  was a worthless sinner having contracted Leprosy.  This Lord Rama not only cured it but later arranged a marriage for this poverty stricken guy.  The father-in law having nothing to gave,  gave two betel leaves, a one rupee coin along with her daugther to me.  Later everything evolved around me, I got govt. service,  my grand children are now settled in other desam, (abroad) but foremost and utmost,  my devotion to Lord Rama became firmer and firmer. I steadily abide by his Name alone all the time.  I want to be a mere speck of dust in his lotus feet.

All 365 days, I only wait for this ten day utsavam of Lord Ramachandra.  I dont know anyother thing than this Seetha Ramachandra of Venugopala Swamy temple of Thiruchendurai.

Tears rolled down his cheeks as he finished his lecture and to ease the environment he in his humorous style sang thus:

ராம நாமமே கற்கண்டு அதை சொல்லாதவனே கல்லு குண்டு

Rama name is like Sugar Candy,  whoever does not repeat it , is like a lifeless big stone."


« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 10:14:25 AM by ksksat27 »

Ravi.N

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2013, 10:06:51 AM »
Jyothi/Friends,
The Historicity of Rama,Krishna or Jesus does not mean anything unless there is the Realization of Krishna ,Rama or Jesus within.

Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Discrimination is the knowledge of what is real and what is unreal. It is the realization that God alone is the real and eternal Substance and that all else is unreal, transitory, impermanent. And you must cultivate intense zeal for God. You must feel love for Him and be attracted to Him. The gopis of Vrindavan felt the attraction of
Krishna
.

Let me sing you a song:

Listen! The flute has sounded in yonder wood.
There I must fly, for Krishna waits on the path.
Tell me, friends, will you come along or no?
To you my Krishna is merely an empty name;
To me He is the anguish of my heart.
You hear His flute-notes onlv with your ears,
But, oh, I hear them in my deepest soul.
I hear His flute calling: 'Radha come out!
Without you the grove is shorn of its loveliness.'
"

The Master sang the song with tears in his eyes, and said to Keshab and the other Brahmo devotees: "Whether you accept Radha and Krishna, or not, please do accept their attraction for each other. Try to create that same yearning in your heart for God. Yearning is all you need in order to realize Him."

Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »
Just musings...

To be a perfectly ordinary human being is the highest avatara. It is equivillent to being the God.

What is big or small what is great or ordinary. Is there truly a difference between God and us, a irdinary human being as we seem to see????

??

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Krishna and Rama - did they really live?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2013, 12:50:52 PM »
Is it true that in some Versions of the Ramayana Rama is not an Avatar of Vishnu but an exemplary human being?

Dear Jyothi,

Such an exemplary human being is the real 'Being' which is God.

Was't Jesus an exemplary human being too?

Jesus and Rama are the same.

Hope this anaogy helps.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta