Author Topic: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!  (Read 2667 times)

deepa

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"gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« on: January 19, 2013, 10:12:29 PM »
Hari Om
Seniors in the forum may have discussed this, in which case, please point me to the right discussions.

I have been listening to Swami Paramarthanandha's discourses on Upadesha saram, as well as reading/contemplating on them.

When I look at all the karmas I am involved in, right from office, home to even participation in a spiritual org, I can clearly see they create more agitation (and hence vasanas) than calm (and very often don't result in what I want). While I understand the subsequent lines of "ishwararpitham na ichchaya kritham", I am really not able to follow this consistently.

I am tempted very much to abandon atleast some of the karmas (the ones I feel are optional). In fact, knowing now that they will lead to agitation, I chicken out from even starting them :)

If we just stick to the most critical duties (as a mother for e.g.) and first cultivate the "ishwararpitham na ichchaya kritham" attitude, then over time I expect we could handle all karmas with same attitude. But handling all activities without having developed this attitude feels to me like reading hundreds of English books while your English knowledge is not good enough. When we are just learning the English language, shouldn't we just start with a few simple books?

How do you all manage all activities? How do you develop this attitude?
Any pointers will be most appreciated!
Deepa






Jewell

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 07:23:00 AM »
Dear Sri Deepa,

I can tell You my own opinion about this subject,and how it is happening in my case. My thinking is that we should,how much we can,avoid to much duties if we cannot menage to do them in the right spirit. And it is indeed difficult to do many things in same time,to atend to so much duties,and stay optimistic and healthy. We,with this "birth' have one main and only true duty,and that is search for our real nature,our sadhana. Other then that we have those most obvious,like You mentioned,rising the child,taking care of our familly members,etc. These are,by my thinking duties we need to attend,any other then that is truly too much. Even these are very hard to bear,and are very enough. Anything which we can avoid is a must,my thinking. If we wish to preform these necessary duties good,and save our health,we need to have atleast some peace of mind. Sometimes we can not avoid doing many things,and thats the time to take that with best aditude we have,bearing in mind that it will pass like all doas. But,even then we need to have some time to gater energy and strenght,to rest,or enjoy in some way so we can relax.

I dont know,in my case,i always tryed not to absorb too much everything Which happens around me,when i had too much things to do,but later,i dropped many,coz i realised that my spiritual pursuit is much more important,and my mental and emotional health too. So my advice for You,dear  Sri Deepa is to avoid everything which brings mental,phisical and spiritual weakness,in that measure that You feel it is too much for You. We live in so fast and crazy time that we need  rest and have some peace of mind. That doasnt have the price,and like that we will do everything much better. It is very important.

With love and prayers,

« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 07:40:09 AM by Jewell »

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 07:29:47 AM »
Deepa

Meditation on self as presented by Uday is a great way. However, I can assure you that you will not achieve peace unless you "realize" that there is NO WORK FOR YOU (as in ego) AND EVERY WORK IS WORK OF THE SUPREME. This is Supreme Surrender. You have to analyze this very carefully. It is not about just going around saying - It is not my work, but HIS work. You have to do Vichara and be convinced whether there is any work or any result that you actually have control on - including your own birth and death. Birth and death are most important events for any individual - none would diagree I am sure. If you have no control on even these two, how can you have control on anything in between :). Isnt that silly to assume you have? Including simple things like eating. Who ensures the food particle does not get into the wrong hole and end everything for you? Who ensures the food is digested. Everything that you claim as your own - you will then by deep vichara realize that you have absolurely no control on.

Typically stress is created by conflicting priorities. Who gave you priorities? Your own ego. Who else? If every grain of sand, every cell on planet and every karma belongs to HIM, who are you to claim priorities?

There is no way I can explain what Lord has told in Gita here. Try to read a good Bhashyam of Gita - like Shankara Bhashyam and most importantly do vichara on what you read. Reading gita a million times is easy, but reading it once and doing vichara on it to convince yourself (to start with apply your logic - no harm in it). Me attempting to explain this hear is my own foolishness :). I can tell you personally from my experience that Vedanta will stand the scrutiny of any level of logic you apply. Each time I applied logic to refute it, it came back springing on me a million times stronger. When you do this, the advantage is that you will be convinced with no doubt. Unless you at least basically satisfy your brain and logic, it will not allow you to go beyond it - unless you are born as someone like Bhagawan and Sri Ramakrishna. And as Lord Krishna says, ask questions, argue and it will stand out successful. No need for a blind faith. I applied all the logic that helped me crack IIT JEE and all the logic that helped me crack IAS prelimis and mains - and I can assure you from my personal experience it will stand any tough scrutiny. Do that - do not hesitate. It is worth a million lifetime.

But unless you practice supreme surrender, there is no way Maha Maya will leave you from her shackles. Doership is the ONE AND ONLY REASON FOR STRESS.

Good luck,
Sanjay
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 07:39:16 AM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

Jewell

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 07:49:25 AM »
Yes,so colorful advices. :) Let the work becomes meditation,and work but dont be a doer. Beautiful! That is the point of work indeed,to make it in sadhana,coz that truly is. And,when the time comes,it will drop by itself.

deepa

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 08:21:30 AM »

Thanks, Jewellji, Sanjayji and Udaiji.

I will add Udaiji's and summarize as 3 points

1. Jewell : Reduce the pace of life, Not too many works. Very important!! Esp. in modern times.
2. Sanjay ji: Even while working be a non-doer :) -- Surrender !
3. Udai : Do one work at a time and while doing the work, involve yourself "Completely" in it ...

As I contemplate on each,

1. Jewell : Reduce the pace of life, Not too many works. Very important!! Esp. in modern times.
As we immerse ourselves in spiritual pursuits, some other interests are automatically dropping away.. interest in movies, even unnecessary news, parties, shopping, etc are no longer captivating. Even talking is going down as one no longer wants to talk to impress or show off and I find that I surprisingly am content to be a listener!! So, pace of life is naturally slower than it used to be. More time to spend on reading/lectures  :D

2. Sanjay ji: Even while working be a non-doer :) -- Surrender !
I think this is a result on the self-enquiry? It takes the instrument of God attitude.. "nimiththa maathram bhava". Btw, "I have gone through the Geetha several times, but Geetha has not gone through me" (using Swami Chinmayanandha's reply to a person who claimed to have read the Geetha many times  ;D) So, more and more mananam called for.

3. Udai : Do one work at a time and while doing the work, involve yourself "Completely" in it ...
It almost seems like this is a form of meditation. Single-pointed mind focusing on the task alone. I think I could manage to do it in simple/independent activities like cooking, even caring for kids.
But office environment these days comes with too many complexities.. political manoeuvres, pressures to deliver, performance, etc. For the last year, I have focused on work, but ignoring any ego plays and not getting into politics, but this has caused some problems for me at work (it doesn't bother me, but it has been noted by others).


I have to really internalize this and follow consistently!! Can only pray to Bhagawan and Guru to keep us steady on the path.
Deepa

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 11:49:47 AM »
Quote
if the vedantic teaching is appreciated intellectually, one can more easily live the vision of Gita.
Ofcourse the purpose of intellect here is to negate non-Self and then the intellect has to drop...


Dear Deepa

Udai has put this nicely above. This is exactly what I meant in summary. Also, remove the thinking that "Geetha has to go through me", "I have to read more" before you can practice supreme surrender. These are not needed at all. Supreme Surrender has no pre-requisites. And vice versa - any amount more of reading will not make you even an inch closer to supreme surrender, unless you start vichara on what you read. There are many jnanis with grace of God who did not need any of these. But to me personally, I first had to undisputedly satisfy my intellect. And once you satisfy it fully - then no more doubts will rise. And yes - personally, I felt that intellect can be very well logically convinced and this is beyond intellect and THE TRUTH. Using intellect for me was NOT TO UNDERSTAND IT intellectually, but to be fully convinced that THIS IS THE TRUTH AND INTELLECT CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND IT. That is the purpose of intellect application here. Once intellect tries real hard and understands that it cannot understand but this this is the truth by experience - then it will never stand in your way. and you start feeling intense peace irrespective of situation.

Again this is very personal and you have to choose what fits you. Of course, some may achieve this state by pure belief and by just chanting a mantra - yes that works too for some. No common path. If needed, You may have to struggle, may be fail many times and choose your path - may be you get it right without doing any of these. And once chosen you know it - and how to know it whether the path you chose is right or wrong? You will know when you become a sthithaprajna - when any storm around you will not affect you. If it affects you, do vichara more and take course deviations if needed. 

My musings...

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

deepa

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 06:10:06 PM »
Quote
if the vedantic teaching is appreciated intellectually, one can more easily live the vision of Gita.
Ofcourse the purpose of intellect here is to negate non-Self and then the intellect has to drop...


But to me personally, I first had to undisputedly satisfy my intellect. And once you satisfy it fully - then no more doubts will rise. And yes - personally, I felt that intellect can be very well logically convinced and this is beyond intellect and THE TRUTH. Using intellect for me was NOT TO UNDERSTAND IT intellectually, but to be fully convinced that THIS IS THE TRUTH AND INTELLECT CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND IT. That is the purpose of intellect application here. Once intellect tries real hard and understands that it cannot understand but this this is the truth by experience - then it will never stand in your way. and you start feeling intense peace irrespective of situation.


Sanjayji and Udaiji
I have been puzzling over the role of intellect as well. I was told that when buddhi is mentioned in vedanta, it refers to a "subtle intellect" and not the intellect we associate with solving math equations or handling wordly knowledge. Can we take it that this "subtle intellect" gets developed during self-enquiry?

And as Udaiji points out, how can we get the subtle intellect to raise up against our mind and vasanas?
All said, all this discussion is another "intellectual" exercise too :)

Combining this intellectual understanding with a faith/surrender to Bhagawan and my Guru has led to more transformation than before!
Pranam,
Deepa


Subramanian.R

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 06:21:44 PM »
Dear Deepa,

"subtle intellect" is what Sri Bhagavan uses in Tamizh as 'koorntha madhi'. This focused intellect or koorntha madhi helps to
dive into the Source, as a diver would diver for picking the pearls from under the ocean, or a person who dives into a well
to find out the dropped item. This subtle intellect is used only for this purpose. (vide Ulladu Narpadu, Verse 28).

The Intellect that we use normally, has to be used  for knowing the nature of Self either by sravananam or reading scriptures. The Intellect, according to Bhagavan should not used for the other worldly purposes in case one seeker wants to attain Self Knowledge.

Arunachala Siva.   

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 06:18:09 AM »
From the Master - Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

A DEVOTEE: "Suppose a man has obtained the Knowledge of Brahman in samadhi. Doesn't he speak any more?"

MASTER: "Sankaracharya retained the 'ego of Knowledge' in order to teach others. After the vision of Brahman a man becomes silent. He reasons about It as long as he has not realized It. If you heat butter in a pan on the stove, it makes a sizzling sound as long as the water it contains has not dried up. But when no trace of water is left the clarified butter makes no sound. If you put an uncooked cake of flour in that butter it sizzles again. But after the cake is cooked all sound stops. Just so, a man established in samadhi comes down to the relative plane of consciousness in order to teach others, and then he talks about God. "The bee buzzes as long as it is not sitting on a flower. It becomes silent when it begins to sip the honey. But sometimes, intoxicated with the honey, it buzzes again.
"An empty pitcher makes a gurgling sound when it is dipped in water. When it fills up it becomes silent. (All laugh.) But if the water is poured from it into another pitcher, then you will hear the sound again. (Laughter.)



Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 07:13:00 AM »
Dear Udai garu -

Quote
Some saints may have become silent.

When Sri Ramakrishna says silent - it is not physical silence :). It is silence within. Similarly when He says "arguments" it is not arguments by mouth, it is arguments within. I dont agree with your statement above in this context. If someone has NOT become silent within, then he has not realized anything. THIS INDEED IS A GENERAL RULE.

Sanjay
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:17:02 AM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

deepa

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Re: "gathi nirodhakam".. puzzled!
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 06:59:28 AM »
From the Master - Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna


MASTER: "Sankaracharya retained the 'ego of Knowledge' in order to teach others. After the vision of Brahman a man becomes silent. He reasons about It as long as he has not realized It. If you heat butter in a pan on the stove, it makes a sizzling sound as long as the water it contains has not dried up. But when no trace of water is left the clarified butter makes no sound. If you put an uncooked cake of flour in that butter it sizzles again. But after the cake is cooked all sound stops. Just so, a man established in samadhi comes down to the relative plane of consciousness in order to teach others, and then he talks about God. "The bee buzzes as long as it is not sitting on a flower. It becomes silent when it begins to sip the honey. But sometimes, intoxicated with the honey, it buzzes again.
"An empty pitcher makes a gurgling sound when it is dipped in water. When it fills up it becomes silent. (All laugh.) But if the water is poured from it into another pitcher, then you will hear the sound again. (Laughter.)



Sanjay

When the gnanis "comes" to relative plane of consciousness to help others (as even Bhagawan did), why did they do it?
1. out of compassion to all humanity? in which case they "used their mind"?
2. prarabdha? - as Bhagawan says, if you have to do something, you cannot stop it.
3. out of a sense of duty? (i assume this is the least likely)

Is there any "sankalpa" at all in this case? Is there a goal?

I agree with Sanjayji that inner silence is the operative word. So, though they body-mind-intellect may appear to be doing some action, they don't perceive that they are acting or the doer. It is almost like I switch on the computer to run a software program detaching myself from the computer - they switch on their BMI and let it run.