Author Topic: Sangam Literature  (Read 7257 times)

atmavichar100

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Sangam Literature
« on: December 19, 2012, 01:10:01 PM »
Dear Friends

Few years back in a different  forum there was a sort of heated debate between Sangam literature and Bhakti Literature ( Thevarams , Thiruvachagam , Divya Prabandhams ) etc and the primary point of debate was that Bhakti literature hijacked the Sangam literature and they saw it as a sort of Brahmin Conspiracy as most of the Sangam works were done by Jains , Buddhist , Atheists  and was anti vedic etc ,while the supporters of Bhakti literature say that Sangam literature just focused on love , heroism , virtues etc but not on God , Moksha, Vedas  etc which Bhakti literature gave lot of emphasis and hence it became popular . The only Sangam literature that became popular with both parties was Thirukural but then it has hundreds of commentaries each contradicting one another .

I am not an expert in either Sangam literature or Bhakti literature but would like someone to throw more light on Sangam literature and how it differs from Bhakti literature .

Om Peace .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 01:30:35 PM »
Dear atmavichar100,

1. Sangam Literature comes under three main categories. The books of Eight (ettu thohai), The books of ten (Pathu Paattu)
and the books of 18 (Pathinen keezh kaNakku). Apart from these, there are five great epics of which only Silappaidikaram and
Manimekalai are available. The other three namely, Jeevaka Chintamani, Valaiyapathi, and Kundalakesi  have been lost in tsunami
that hit southern Tamizh Nadu in and around 2nd Century before Christ.

2. All these are not written by non Hindus. There are several poems in each by Hindus or Saivities to be strict. Even in
non Hindu works, enough respect has been given to Hindu gods. Silappadikaram starts with praise of Sun, Moon, Rains etc.,
Tirukural implicitly speak about god who is of eight features, the guardian of dharma, matchless High etc.,

3. TirumurugaRRupadai which is written by Nakkirar is exclusively on the six abodes of Muruga. Muruga is the most ancient
god of Saivites after Siva.

4. Bhakti literature exclusively on Siva and Narayana came later say from 3rd Century. Tiruvachakam is said to have been written
in 3rd Century. But some say it is after 7th century, i.e. after Sundaramurti, since the list of 63 Saints does not find a place for
Manikkavachagar.

5. Bhakti literature are not on war with Sangam literature. In fact bhakti literature borrows many ideas from Sangam literature.
Both go hand in hand with each other.

6. Again Tirumandiram of Tirumoolar (though Tirumoolar is one among 63 Saints) is said to have been written many centuries
before Jnana Sambandhar. However again its exact period is not known.

7. Tirukkural is loved by all. Because it gives scope for inclusion and reference by any bhakti literature. But Tirukural does not
speak about Moksha (veedu in Tamizh), since Tiruvalluvar is said to have believed that if one could observe dharma (aRam),
earning money (porul) and enjoying sex (kAma) correctly then one would not worry about moksha (veedu).

8. There are some Tamizh gramamar books. Tolkappiyam, and Nannool are the oldest ones. There there is mention about
mantras, gods, pujas, brahmins etc.,

9. There are later grammar books like Veera Chozhiyam, etc.,

10. Man first investigated about Nature, five elements, life and death. Then only the dawn of devotion came. This is the order.

Arunachala Siva.                   

atmavichar100

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 02:06:28 PM »
Quote
5. Bhakti literature are not on war with Sangam literature. In fact bhakti literature borrows many ideas from Sangam literature.
Both go hand in hand with each other.

Subramaniam Sir
Thanks for your detailed reply
Has any Bhakti Saints acknowledged this ? I asked a Vaishnavite friend of mine who reads Divya Prabandhams and he said there is no reference to Sangam literature in Divya Prabandhams and even Thirukural is not mentioned / acknowledged .

Om Peace .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

ramanaduli

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 07:05:09 AM »
Dear Subramaniyam ji,

1.What about AGANANURU AND PURANANURU?

2. Which period does Avaiyar belong? She wrote poems all based on Bhakti. Her Vinayakar agaval itself speaks about her Bhakthi. To my knowledge, she only promoted Thrukkural. It may be kadai sangam. I understand that, even though Thruvalluvar does not speak about Moksha, He gives lots of important for Dharma. If you live on dharma, it will lead to moksha. He says VANAVAR NADU VAZHI PIRANDHIDUME.

3. They say, Tamil language is given by Lord Muruga. So tamil speaks only Bhakthi and God. It is called DEIVATH THAMIZH. Thamizh and God or bhakthi both are two eys, both eyes see one thing always. If you learn tamil deeply it will lead to bhakthi. At the end people become silent.

4. Fake people those who are fighting for power and money they may shout tamil instead of tamizh not searching God. Thruvalluvar may have gnana dhirishti that in future there may be fight. So He toughed only Dharma.

5. In fact, what I feel is, due to Bhakthi and saints only Tamizh language has got richness and ever lasting.

Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 07:47:08 AM »
Dear ramanaduli,

1. AganAnuru and PuRanAnuru are among the Books of Eight. There is a song NaRRinai nalla kuRunthohai.....which gives the books of
eight and it contains aham puRam.....

2. Yes. Azhwars and Nayanmars contributed a lot for Tamizh literature. Nammazhwar is said to have given the essence of
Vedas in his TirvAi mozhi. The thousand verses of NammAzhwar contain all that is in Vedas. Vedam Tamizh seitha mARan....
there is a verse. mARan is the name of Narayana and also NammAzhwar.

3. Today's political Tamizh of DMK and AIADMK are thamil not Tamizh.

Arunachala Siva.   

Ravi.N

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 06:34:30 AM »
Friends,
Those who are interested in sangath tamizh and how it is linked to AndAl's Tiruppavai may refer to the following articles in this thread;An Excerpt from this thread:

"aaNdaaL borrowed the very exact words 'kanRu kuNilaay eRindhaay kazhal pORRi'(Tiruppavai verse 24) from
silappadhikaaram 'kanRu kuNilaay kani udhirththa maadhavan'(kuNil =Stick and refers to lord sri krishna slaying the vatsAsuran who came in the form of a calf!Sri Krishna ,it is said swirled the calf asura as if he is stick or cudgel and aimed him to strike the other Demon kapithAsuran who was in the form of a tree-slaying both of them in one shot-Ravi)

Please refer to this link:
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jan97/0073.html

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jan97/0071.html

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jan97/0072.html

If you wish to explore paripAdal,you may refer this link :
http://www.projectmadurai.org/pm_etexts/utf8/pmuni0087.html

Project Madurai is a rich collection of Tamizh literature and those interested may explore that as well.The sheer volume and mosre importantly the High quality of these works is proof enough why Mahakavi BhArati said:yaam aRindha mozhigaLiley tamizhai pOl inidhavadhu engum kaaNOm'(Among the Languages that I know,i do not see anything sweeter than Tamizh-He knew Sanskrit,English,French besides tamizh).

I agree with our friend Subramanian that present day politicians are no guardians of Tamizh and do not even know how to pronounce the word Tamizh!In Tamizh,literature is known as ilakkiam=Ilakku+iyam;Ilakku=Goal and Iyam=means ,way.
The suffix 'ism' in English came from 'iyam' in Tamizh.Words like Buddhism,Jainism,Zorastrianism,etc mean the way of Buddha,Mahavira and Zoraster.
Only those works that show man the Goal and the way can be deemed as 'Ilakkiam' or literature.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 06:56:00 AM »
They had made Karunanidhi as some saint, some years back, i noticed that they had deleted the tirukkural from the local buses and had put some quotes of his! Such is their daring!

11th December Bharathiyar's birthday - no body remembers but 12th December Superstar Rajnikanth birthday everybody remembers :D

Kali days in peak.

For the hate speeches they make on brahmins for not doing enough for tamil and only favouring vada-mozhi sanskrit, it is the brahmins (along with few others) who have preserved the pristine-ty of the great mozhi. Infact it is the other two sections of the religions who are pampered, are giving away the tamizh and adopting english and urdu day by day. nobody remember UVS.

hypocritical-blood  all way.

but, i shd not be having so much patrru on tamizh from spiritual angle :D pacify myself and move on...

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 08:32:53 AM »
Quote
Mahakavi BhArati said:yaam aRindha mozhigaLiley tamizhai pOl inidhavadhu engum kaaNOm'(Among the Languages that I know,i do not see anything sweeter than Tamizh-He knew Sanskrit,English,French besides tamizh).

Yes Ravi

That is the most important point to be noted . There are many people who are fanatic admirers of their own mother tongue .No problem in that but when asked how many other languages they know  apart from their mother tongue they draw a blank .
In case of Sri Subramania Bharathi , he claimed Tamizh as far superior among other languages that he was quite competent with ( i.e Sanskrit , English , French ) .

Om Peace
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 08:35:52 AM »
Dear Nagaraj,

This reminds me of U.Ve. Swaminatha Iyer. He came to have darshan of Sri Bhagavan. He listened to Him and then said:
Bhagavan! You wanted us to leave all paRRu (attachments) but I am not able to leave my Tamizh paRRu.

Sri Bhagavan smiled and said: Who wants you to leave Tamizh paRRu? Tamiizh is Sivam. Love is Sivam. All great things in life
are Sivam!

Arunachala Siva.

atmavichar100

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 08:38:50 AM »
Dear Nagaraj,

This reminds me of U.Ve. Swaminatha Iyer. He came to have darshan of Sri Bhagavan. He listened to Him and then said:
Bhagavan! You wanted us to leave all paRRu (attachments) but I am not able to leave my Tamizh paRRu.

Sri Bhagavan smiled and said: Who wants you to leave Tamizh paRRu? Tamiizh is Sivam. Love is Sivam. All great things in life
are Sivam!

Arunachala Siva.

Subramaniam Sir

That is a well known incident .But I heard that Bhagwan had a different advice to Muruganar on his Tamil Pattru and told him to be bit detached of the same . Kindly correct me if I am wrong .

Om Peace
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 08:46:44 AM »
Krishna/Subramanaian/Nagaraj/Friends,
Whether 'paRRU' needs to be there or not may be doubted but there is no doubt in one's mind whether Love of tamizh needs to be there or not.In U Ve Swaminatha Iyer case,it is this LOVE that sri Bhagavan would have seen and hence told him as such.Bharatidasan also calls tamizh as uyir,life.'paRRu' means admiration and attachment.'anbu' means Love and adoration.This is as deep as the soul or life.
tamizh anbu will elevate one as it is pure satsangha.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 09:35:42 AM »
:)

really tamizh is uyir tudippu

I am grateful, for tamizh has accepted me., and am in Her fold.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramanaduli

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 06:11:24 PM »
Dear sirs,

The real meaning for THAMIZH  the word comes ITH= AMIZH. The person who really loves this language he may go deeper into deeper. He then studies illakiyam which takes us to a goal. That is self. THANUL AMIZHNDU POVADHE THAMIZH.
After reading KAMBA RAMAYANAM, VILLIPUTHURAN BHARATHAM..AND ALZHWARS WORKS. people will sink in bhakthi which leads .... self only.


Ramanaduli

arcsekar

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2012, 07:44:38 PM »
In Tamil literature, there is mention of Sangha Palagai- a floating wooden plank on the temple tank of Sri Meenakshi Chokkanathar temple . Whenever there is a controversy over the worthiness/merit of a poetical work, the disputed book/palm leaves  was  placed on the plank with prayers. If it is an unfit product, the plank will submerge and the work will be buried under the water. In fact, Thirukkural was  tested like this and after the successful process it  was accepted and  has come to stay for ever.

Lord Siva called Erayanar was the presiding deity of First Tamil Sangham.  It is unfortunate Tamilnadu politicians under the garb of Dravidian movement alienate devotional literature from this ancient language . There are many in Tamilnadu making  livelihood by exploiting language fanaticism : by doing so they have done enough damages to Tamil Language. Nellai Kannan, a Tamil scholar,while talking of Bharathi remarked ' நிறைய பேர் த்மிழை வைத்து பிழைப்பு நடுத்துகிறார்கள் பாரதியார் தமிழை பிழை க்கவைத்தார்

Subramanian.R

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Re: Sangam Literature
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 07:51:36 PM »
Dear arcsekhar,

All that you have said are 100% true. Sanga Palakai is an important feature of Tamizh Sangam. The first Tamizh Sangam was
lead by Irayinar (Sivan), There is one song that reads: Tripuram erittha virijadai kadavlulm, kunReRintha Kumaravelu,,,..
That is Siva and Muruga were the leaders of these 49 Tamizh poets.

Arunachala Siva.