Author Topic: the myth of jivan muktha  (Read 3880 times)

ksksat27

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the myth of jivan muktha
« on: December 17, 2012, 01:01:57 PM »
the confusion of full self realization


Subramaniam sir posted some topic on Kavya Kanta Ganapathi Muni and Ravi sir also contributed
with some references from V Ganesan's human gospel of Sri Ramana Maharshi.

Well,  somehow we all have landed (including me)  into this myth of jivan muktha or full self
realization either at death as vidheha or while living.

Jivan Muktha is a perfect state as per advaitins where there is no more birth or no more form . 
It is a state where one identifies himself with all forms or no forms.   No intermediary.

Around this topic, in David Godman's blog,  sometime before there was a huge discussion.

Re-incarnting jnanis was the topic.  David Godman quoted the advaitic jnanis (widely accepted) like
Ramana Maharshi,  Annamalai Swami,  Saradama,  Papaji , Sri Lakshmana to cleary emphasize
that jnanis dont reincarnate .  And if any saint has stated that he has few more avatars he cannot be considered a perfect jivan muktha or jnani.

That time itself,  Sri Ravi quoted the spiritual stalwart Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's assurance of
incarnating after 200 years and also Sri Ravi spoke about a state called ishwarakothis or something like that.

Though David never spoke about the state of Thakur,  I once asked him explicitly in a personal mail.

David summarily rejected to reply on that and midly scolded me as a mentor.

So this terminilogy of jivan muktha itself is a sort of mysterious thing.  What we try to do is,
whenever we hear about a saint, immediately we take this state as parameter and start asking this question in one or another form ' is he full self realized?'

KavyaGanta ganapathi muni's scenario more or less falls under this category.

V Ganesan (or whoever the author),  has taken pains to list down Ganapthi Muni's vasanas one by one and then to state that all are fullfilled.   This is clearly not required and this vasana listing
itself has major flaws. 

How do we know what vasanas exactly Muni had in his inner-most core of his being?  Only Maharishee and Ganapthi Muni himself know answer to this question.

And what is the compulstion to prove that Muni attained full videha mukthi and was in jivan muktha
state on his death-bed?


what is the urgency and compulsion to bring each and every saint under this 'jivan muktha'
terminology?

What if ,  Ganapathi did not attain final liberation?  Is that a criteria to be a Guru?  could be
not.One who has  got the command from Ishwara and authority to be a Guru alone can be a Guru.

The root cause is we all want to fit all saints into this barometer, quite unconsciously we do this.

I have pondered over this for  a long time and came to following conclusions.  People are free to
discuss any of my points,  accept or reject them.

i) we cannot ascertain a saint's state for sure.   

ii) even if he gives statements like he will re-incarnate etc. ,  that is to be considered Divine
Sport of Shakthi.

iii) a person who approaches a saint and worships him/her,  gets immense benefit and rapid progress in his sadhana.

iv)even with advanced kriya and hatha yogis like Yukteshwar,  it has been time and again proved that,  devotion to such a advanced yogi itself brings immense benefits , abundant grace and lot of vairagya and jnana to a sadhak.

So what I have realized is every sage coming to earth is unqiue,  they are born to uplift others.

They will describe their state in a mysterious way.  They have got the command from Ishwara and
authority to be a Guru.

Whether they say,  they will be in subtle body after their maha samadhi,  or whether they have another incarnation etc.  is too much to comprehend with our intellect.

So when an advanced yogi like ganapathi muni has to take another birth,  if he has sankalpas as
Maharishee told, there is no need to conceal that fact or to prove that sankalpas of Ganapati Muni
are already satisfied.

As we all know,  beyond a point,  there is no difference in the intensity of the sun for onlookers
like use.  Our candle like ego will melt down by the light of great yogis.

Let us worship these yogis with a pure devotion and this will uplift our degree of purity to a great
extent.

I close with a incidnet in Papaji life taken from book The Truth.

Generally Papaji will stress more on jivan mukthi ,  ego-less state when referring to other siants
etc.

But on one occasion, a visitor came and told that,  previously he had been to Ammachi,  Krishna Bhai , Mirra and few other saints.

Now he has arrived at Lucknow.  Everybody in the hall expected Papaji to pass some critical comments of other Gurus.

But Papaji simply told across these lines "  Yes,  all those blessings of great saints has brought you
here.

The darshan of holy saints has bestowed virtue and purity on you"

Subramanian.R

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 01:05:50 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

As far I know, a Jivan Mukta like Sri Bhagavan, who attains jnana bodha even while living, upon His death, does not take birth
again and nor as an avatara also.  Others - I do not know.

Arunachala Siva.

ksksat27

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 01:18:24 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

As far I know, a Jivan Mukta like Sri Bhagavan, who attains jnana bodha even while living, upon His death, does not take birth
again and nor as an avatara also.  Others - I do not know.

Arunachala Siva.


Not that sir.  We all know that.

But sometimes we all use that as an yardstick.   That is where I think we are trying to measure the immeasurable.

Bhagavan Ramana is a rare class of soul who belonged to athyasrama.  They come to earth only very rarely.

They never take any birth in any form.

But,  the creative force of Ishwara will proudce different types of great saints,  some who will again take birth as avatars.

Even Bhagavan Ramana once accepted that the Vishnu's avataras have to take other dream bodies for upliftment of humanity.

He compared it to ten dream bodies or something like that.

In another occasion,  Krishna Bhikshu told that Bhagavan will be born again and again.  All devotees around objected,  but Bhagavan nodded his head.  This means,  Self again and again comes to earth. 

Since all jnanis are Self, they are essentially the same.

I will give a clue on where I am driving this topic.

In intense samadhi or intense churning of divine bliss,  oridnary people like us will get melted down very easily.  In that state,  we wont be able to even tell about our state and sometimes we will just be locked there until this creation. From that state,  we will be promoted to complete nirvana at the end of cosmic dissolution.

Because once samadhi becomes intense,  all sort of things happen .

So this way,  many yogis live in subtle planes and protect their disciples.

There is a Ramakrishna Lokha being spoken off --  Ravi Sir can elaborate on this.


Now who has the necessary Knowledg to ascertain Thakur's state --  but whatever it may be,  a sincere devotee or one time visistory even gets his earnest prayers answered by Thakur to this day.

It is a mystery.  We can never solve it. 

That is why Bhagavan Raman never spoke of any other person's state -- he knew for sure, we will likely misunderstand the whole thing.



What is required is unconditional belief in one's own Gurus teachings and his state.  Whatever that Guru says about himself,  one should believe.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 01:34:35 PM »
Our life itself is a combination of "belief" and "knowing for sure".

In our childhood we believed what elders and teachers taught us and then when maturity arrived we introspected and known for ourselves.

Even when maturity is there we surely need to rely on only belief in few cases.

Few examples:

when something wrong happens to our body we surrender to doctor and believe in him/her in any complex operations to be performed in our body..

when people asked about number of planets in solar system we say what is taught to us and here we rely on belief only

In spiritual side when ramana maharshi said to pray to arunachala hill some believed in him and starting doing girivalam etc and clearly people doing girivalam dont know for sure whether it benefits them or not but they rely on belief in the tradition or the guru.

Ravi.N

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 01:36:41 PM »
Krishna,

Quote
"I have pondered over this for  a long time and came to following conclusions.  People are free to  discuss any of my points,  accept or reject them.
i) we cannot ascertain a saint's state for sure.   

ii) even if he gives statements like he will re-incarnate etc. ,  that is to be considered Divine
Sport of Shakthi.

iii) a person who approaches a saint and worships him/her,  gets immense benefit and rapid progress in his sadhana.

iv)even with advanced kriya and hatha yogis like Yukteshwar,  it has been time and again proved that,  devotion to such a advanced yogi itself brings immense benefits , abundant grace and lot of vairagya and jnana to a sadhak.

So what I have realized is every sage coming to earth is unqiue,  they are born to uplift others.

They will describe their state in a mysterious way.  They have got the command from Ishwara and
authority to be a Guru.

Whether they say,  they will be in subtle body after their maha samadhi,  or whether they have another incarnation etc.  is too much to comprehend with our intellect"

I appreciate this outlook and attitude.It is indeed beneficial for a genuine seeker.

I recall that discussion on 'Reincarnating jnanis'-I have pitched Lord Sri Krishna's words in The Bhagavad Gita-'paritranaya sadhunam...sambhavami yuge,yuge' in that discussion and whether he is a 'jnani' or not has to be ascertained! :)

Just to add that 'sankalpas' are not the same as vasanas'.Sankalpas are as the prefix 'sam' implies -Good,beneficial and as such are nurtured for the wellbeing of common good.Yes, I agree that it is beneficial for the sadhaka to consider everyone as 'God' and worship all.This ,however should be an attitude and not become an 'outer ceremonial' form of worship.

Wishing you the Very Best.

Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »
Quote
the myth of jivan muktha

Kskat

My take is that discussing things like state of a Jnani /Jivan Muktha , fate of a Jnani /Jivan Muktha , past life , after life etc etc will never bring in any consensus as there is always varied opinions on the same .

You yourself have provided answer for this
Quote
It is a mystery.  We can never solve it.

That is why Bhagavan Raman never spoke of any other person's state -- he knew for sure, we will likely misunderstand the whole thing.

In the past I was also digging in to the lives of various saints ,checking who was enlightened , who was not , is there a degree in the levels of enlightenment or not etc etc and later found that digging in to these questions were not helping me in anyway and after reading "Living by the words of Bhagwan" stopped probing in to these sort of things as Bhagwan says time and again points out  "Mind your business and attend to what you came for Primarily " .Moreover  I feel "Existence" is too large and complex for any taking any concrete and standard ,fixed idea about how things must be .

Om Peace
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

ksksat27

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 01:50:00 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
        :)

Quote
What is required is unconditional belief in one's own Gurus teachings and his state.

Do you believe something you are unsure of or do you believe what you know ?
For example : do you believe you have two hands or do you know ?

:)

Dear Thushnim

I actually believe even things I am unsure of,  but I never believe what I know.  Because by experience I have learnt that whatever I know is only through object of senses , I have also realized that all these days I have been fooled by the 5 thieves of the object of senses.

So nowadays,  I dont believe what I know,  I believe only that told by great saints.

ksksat27

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 01:58:36 PM »
Dear Ksksat27,
         :)

Quote
So nowadays,  I dont believe what I know,  I believe only that told by great saints.

But did those "great" saints tell you that you are Self or did they say that you are "Bound" ?

They did say many things,  I am still in the very first step  ,  they all said to drop our ego,  the sense of doubting everything,  the sense of pride,  the sense of 'i will do this alone' etc.

they all wanted first obedience in outward things,  obedience,  and devotion and patience and faith in God,  faith in personal God.

They never started the 'high ' lessons for me,   for they know my position clearly.

ksksat27

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 02:17:00 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
        :) So here is one saint called Ashtavakra ... he says:
Muktabhimani mukto hi , the one who has Muktha abhimana, the firm conviction :i am free... is free indeed.
baddho baddha abhimani api... the one who believes one is "bound" is bound, baddah.

now here is ashtavakra's statement ... and in this forum suddenly it came to you.
do you depend on senses and reject this ?
or do you take it straight ?

I am just curious.

neither,  I pray Ashtavakra saint to first develop humility in me,  first develop devotion in me, first develop the attitude of a dasa in me,  first develop the attitude to see Narayana in all creatures.

As of now,  I am not qualified to get this supreme teachings in right sense.

I accept defeat and I do not want to get trapped in a false sense of liberation. 

Jewell

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 02:28:47 PM »
Dear ksksat27, This post with which You have opened this thread is very beautiful and i find it very true. We indeed cannot know who is realised,and we can benefit from all the Great people,no matter who is realised. And,we will always know for sure about some of them,to be fully realised,like Bhagavan. Also,it is true that many Sages are Here,manifesting when there is the need,to guide us! But,i will also stress that we need to give up even,and MOSTLY,our idea how realistion looks like. It is a great obstacle,i believe. And it will hardly happen in the way it happened to anyone. With love and prayers,

ksksat27

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 02:29:51 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
          :) But here:

Quote
As of now,  I am not qualified to get this supreme teachings in right sense.

This is believing your senses !
Ashtavakra simply said something else ... and "false sense of liberation" is your interpretation based on what your mind is telling you isnt it ?

And Ashtavakra did not say "pray to me for humility"... he said "You are Free!" ... disregarding what he said if you are doing what you "Feel" like doing ... how can it be called humility ?

Now, please note: this is just a curious question. not any "attack"

Tushnim


I understand this is not an attack.
Please understand this:  there is nothing wrong to be in bondage.  There is nothing wrong in feeling that one is bound.  There is nothing wrong in praying to a saint for humility.

Liberated people never claim that anyone is under bondage.

but liberated people definitely have cautioned not to apply vedanta and advaita when a sadhak is not yet fully pure in thoguhts ,  word and deed.

I am not in that pure sattvic state to catch the points Shri Ashtavakra is driving at (means the inner state which he expresses in words)  .  For that state is beyond words.

However ,  how much impure I am,  I have this advantage to pray for purity and humility first.


Later let me understand his words in the inner sense.  I am not in a hurry.

ksksat27

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 02:31:27 PM »
Dear ksksat27, This post with which You have opened this thread is very beautiful and i find it very true. We indeed cannot know who is realised,and we can benefit from all the Great people,no matter who is realised. And,we will always know for sure about some of them,to be fully realised,like Bhagavan. Also,it is true that many Sages are Here,manifesting when there is the need,to guide us! But,i will also stress that we need to give up even,and MOSTLY,our idea how realistion looks like. It is a great obstacle,i believe. And it will hardly happen in the way it happened to anyone. With love and prayers,

Nice post.

can you kindly elaborate this sentence:
I could see this line needs lot of explanation ,  it carries important message.    I could see that message but would like to get elaborated by you.

"And it will hardly happen in the way it happened to anyone. With love and prayers,"


Jewell

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 02:36:14 PM »
Also,i would agree with Sri Tushnim thinking that we are not bound,and that that belongs to ego,an idea only. It belongs to person and thoughts,and we are not any of them. That asurance will for sure bring good results with time.

Jewell

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 03:05:36 PM »
Dear ksksat27, Sure,i ment that our Realisation will be unique case,in accordance with our mental paterns,beliefs,mind set,way of thinking,and general idea and sense what freedom means for us. It is dependent on that. What You have learned from the Guru,what You saw that You need to hold to,and what will be best formula for Your own mind set. Some pattern needs to be broken,and on something we need to hold,some value,idea,theaching. It is very unique. Like for Buddha his test was object of His sence pleasures,for You can be test in totaly different way. To perserve in some advice,teaching of a Guru,some genuine Your heart sense of Freedom and justice,of Faith and belief.

Jewell

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Re: the myth of jivan muktha
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 03:16:49 PM »
We need to led go the ego,the person,and how that leting go will look like,depends on what is that,in our mind patern which hold us trapped,what link needs to be broken. We need to be honest to ourselfs,open,to feel what is our own Heart way and faith,and to hold to that,and preserve no matter how mind tries to full us. And that can only You know,coz Your mind will use some sorts of triks which are same in general,but different in expression. Also,i believe,Realisation is not some explosion,or some extraordinary experience,exept samadhi,and samadhi are of different tipes too,and some dont need to have it,in sense it is usualy believed. We are simply free from thoughts,means appart from them,and not pertubed by any apearance. There is no fear.