Author Topic: Tiruppavai-Discussion  (Read 17193 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2012, 08:13:38 AM »
Krishna(Atmavichar),
The Iyengar traditional way of chanting does not do justice to the Sangath Tamizh Majesty of these verses!This sort of style may suit Venkatesa suprabhatam -a sing song type of rendering and this simply falls flat and misses the wonderful rhyme and rhythm and majesty of of Sangath Tamizh.TGN mentions this aspect that most of the Traditional commentators of Tiruppavai were sanskrit oriented being sanskrit scholars;so much so that vedanta Desika wrote a set of verses in Sanskrit on our Lady AndaL(alias kothai-Andal calls herself as 'PattarbhirAn Kothai';PattarbhirAn is periyalwar) and called it GodA(actually Kothai in tamizh) stuthi!That is another interesting story how Vedanta desika was graced by our AndAL and came to compose 29 verses.He was prompted to write one more by his disciples to make it 30 but he declined saying that he does want to be placed along with Andal!He stopped with 29 verses.
Namaskar.

ramanaduli

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2012, 08:22:31 AM »
Dear sir,

I wondered when Andal sang 30 verses why Manivachakar sang only 20. But one thing is clear, some saivas hardly goes to perumal temple. Theruvempavai quences the thirst by singing in shiva temple. Andal Herself is divine child or avathar otherwise how at that tender age can sing so beautifull with the depth of advaita. We are so fortunate to be born
in India especially in Tamil nadu.

Ramanaduli

atmavichar100

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2012, 08:24:30 AM »
Krishna(Atmavichar),
The Iyengar traditional way of chanting does not do justice to the Sangath Tamizh Majesty of these verses!This sort of style may suit Venkatesa suprabhatam -a sing song type of rendering and this simply falls flat and misses the wonderful rhyme and rhythm and majesty of of Sangath Tamizh.TGN mentions this aspect that most of the Traditional commentators of Tiruppavai were sanskrit oriented being sanskrit scholars;so much so that vedanta Desika wrote a set of verses in Sanskrit on our Lady AndaL(alias kothai-Andal calls herself as 'PattarbhirAn Kothai';PattarbhirAn is periyalwar) and called it GodA(actually Kothai in tamizh) stuthi!That is another interesting story how Vedanta desika was graced by our AndAL and came to compose 29 verses.He was prompted to write one more by his disciples to make it 30 but he declined saying that he does want to be placed along with Andal!He stopped with 29 verses.
Namaskar.

Ravi

I do agree that Traditional way of Chanting Tamil Verses does not resonate much with the Tamil way of singing but I heard from one person that the reason why they chant this way was do "imitate the way of Vedic Chanting " and to give a feeling to those chanting these Tamil verses that these are also equal to Vedas not only in spirit but also in form and hence the "Temple Way" of Chanting is basically to make it on Par with Vedic Chanting .
In fact he referred to the Vaishnava Procession from Temples when they take God outside on the street , the first to go are these Traditioal Temple Tamil Chanting , followed by Lord Vishnu , followed by Sanskrit Vedic Chants .
The meaning is Lord Vishnu follows where Tamil is and Vedas follow where Vishnu is .

Some object to this forcible way of Chanting Tamil like Vedas but others consider it a part of Tradition and not to be tampered with modern Ragas etc .I am not competent to take position on either sides and leave it to people to take what is best for them .

Regarding Vedanta Desika,I am not aware much .I am a Smartha Brahmin and hence not in much touch with the Vaishnava Sampradaya and whatever inputs I have of the same I get it from other Vaishnava people and reading Mukkur Narasimhachariar's "Kurai Onrun Illai" series as well as watching "Vellukudi Krishnan's Talks on TV "
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2012, 12:45:23 PM »
Ramanaduli/friends,
Yes ,indeed it is said that AndaL is the Divine Mother herself born to teach the way to liberation.She is truly universal and although the Bhakti framework refers to the avatars of Lord Narayana,we will see that the teachings themselves are universal;also Narayana referred to is, the supreme Being,at once personal and impersonal.
In Tiruppavai ,Andal is beckoning all spiritual aspirants without any distinction with regard to class,clan,Faith,Race.This is the spirit in which we will approach this wonderful work.Andal makes no bones about the language in which it is composed-she calls it Sangath Tamizh Malai-and this is the True Tradition that needs to be respected,if at all we have to take Tradition into account.The Aga nanooru and pura Nanooru are some of the other great works that are illustrative of the Grandeur and majesty of Sangath tamizh.
In this sense as well,Andal's Tiruppavai is not for the Brahmin Iyengars only but for all those who love Tamizh poetry as well;even those who are atheists as well!I have mentioned how Bharatidasan was an ardent devotee of Andal's sangath tamizh.In this respect as well,Tiruppavai is a unique work that has won the hearts of even atheists as well-In this respect ,it is truly universal and cuts across all divisions.The Temple Tower that is part of the Tamil Nadu state emblem is the tower of AndAL's srivilliputur Temple.
Again,herein we have a temple dedicated to a Saint,AndAl-Although ,Lord Vata patra sayana(Ala ilai Krishna in Tamizh)is the deity,the main deity is AndAl!Here people offer prayers to Andal -knowing well that if she is pleased the Lord has to simply comply!
I will share some stories regarding AndAl sometime later-Among her devotees were Kamban who wrote kamba Ramayana and King Krishna Deva Raya who wrote her life in Telungu in a work called Amukta Malyada.
Tiruppavai always brings to mind tiruvempavai of manikkavachakar ,as both these works are chanted during the Month of Margazhi.However,as we will see that Tiruppavai is not just a Devotional Hymn but an aRRU Padai-a Practical Guide that has a clear methodology as a step by step guide to spiritual living.In this way,it is quite a unique work.This sort of a view need not be viewed as an affront on TiruvempAvai nor does it detract from the beauty of Tiruvempavai.
We need to learn to approach these works in their own right and not pitch them against each other-as if one represents the Vaishnava and the other represents the saiva tradition.This sort of a narrow sectarian view has to be transcended with the clear understanding that These Great ones who composed it were truly identified with the Supreme being and it does not do them justice to confine them within the devotional framework within which they expressed this universal Truth.
TGN takes a jnAna illakiyam approach to TiruppAvai and we will see this in coming days.
Thanks very much for the interest and appreciation of this Great work.
Namaskar.

ramanaduli

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2012, 07:50:18 AM »
Dear Ravi sir,


Thanks for giving the inner meaning of Thruppavai. So far with my little knowledge I understood the word "SANGHA THAMIZH MALAI'. as it belongs to some one of the tamil sangam. After reading your post it gives a new meaning that Andal refers that, sangam means to sat sangam. This sat sangam who sings all 30 verses.... am I right?

Every year new people comes on Podhigai doordarshan to give meaning of thruppavai. Every year we understand a new meaning. It is so rich with deep meaning.

Once again I thank you and Subramaniyan ji for posting.

Ramanaduli

Nagaraj

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 09:37:51 AM »
I am still yet to really sink into the expressions of Tiruppavai, though it seems simple and easy, it is quite subtle, and requires steadfast meditation on it.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2012, 05:35:17 AM »
Nagaraj,
I have been contemplating posting the wonderful Life of AndAl.Tiruppavai will become accessible as we integrate ourselves in the satsangha that andal Organizes and hear her call.The Tamizh words used here may be a little unfamiliar but once we get past that,it is revelling in the Beauty,Humour,comraderie,Grace,Beauty,Majesty of this peerless composition.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2012, 08:09:20 AM »
Ramanaduli/Friends,
Yes,Andal's Tiruppavai is a perfect Blend of Karma,Yoga,Bhakti and Jnana.

Regarding the 'Milk' and 'Udder' we may see what the Siddha of Siddha's Sri Ramakrishna says in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Nitya and Lila
"God has different forms, and He sports in different ways. He sports as Isvara, deva, man,
and the universe. In every age He descends to earth in human form, as an Incarnation, to
teach people love and devotion
. There is the instance of Chaitanya. One can taste devotion
and love of God only through His Incarnations
. Infinite are the ways of God's play, but
what I need is love and devotion. I want only the milk. The milk comes through the udder
of the cow. The Incarnation is the udder
."

Andal in verse 3 ,begins with invoking the Grace of the Vamana avatara,the Lord who apparently comes in a dimunitive form but then expands himself and with two great Giant Strides covers everything else -He covers the Bhu,Bhuva and Suvaha and asks for the third place to rest hsi feet.Mahabali offers his head(ego)and the lord places his Feet on that erasing it!Andal is invoking this Blessing.We will see this as we go on.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2012, 06:39:27 AM »
Balaji,
Thanks very much Friend.I very much wished that a picture of our Lady AndAL be posted in Tiruppavai thread.I was struggling for almost an hour but could not do it yesterday night.It is a delight to find the same posted by you.
May I request you or Nagaraj to post these pictures-there is one for each pasuram in this site.If it is possible to post it directly and not attach it,it will be possible for those who are not members in this forum to view it as well.
The Pictures are available in this site:
http://radhekrishnasatsangam.com/Tiruppavai/tiruppavai_paasuram1.html
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2012, 12:27:24 PM »
Quote
Infinite are the ways of God's play,
Subramania Bharati says this in a different way  எத்தனை கோடியின்பம் வைத்தாய் -எங்கள்
     இறைவா!    இறைவா!    இறைவா!        i.e How many billions of pleasures have you made
Oh God, Oh God, Oh God
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2012, 03:45:36 PM »
Thanks for the opportunity Sri Ravi :) I have grabbed it :) I have posted 3 verses for now, as and when each verse is posted by you, i will follow thereafter.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2012, 07:30:34 PM »
Nagaraj,
Thanks very much for posting the pictures along with the Translation of the verses 1-3.Very neat work and extremely helpful.Yes,please do keep posting the pictures as we take up the verses.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2012, 07:17:31 AM »
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

"That which is Brahman is verily Sakti. I
address That, again, as the Mother. I call It Brahman when It is inactive, and Sakti when It
creates, preserves, and destroys. It is like water, sometimes still and sometimes covered
with waves. The Incarnation of God is a part of the lila of Sakti. The purpose of the Divine
Incarnation is to teach man ecstatic love for God. The Incarnation is like the udder of the
cow, the only place milk is to be got. God incarnates Himself as man. There is a great
accumulation of divinity in an Incarnation, like the accumulation of fish in a deep hollow in
a lake."

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2012, 06:00:24 AM »
subramanian,

Quote
Excellent explanation. Thank you very much.

Yes,TGN 's deep insight is indeed a real boon for the listener.If we listen to Tiruppavai verses after listening to TGN ,we appreciate each and every word in a deeper sense and at the same time without any sophistry,in a spirit of true devotion.

Namaskar. 

Ravi.N

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Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2012, 07:09:43 AM »
Ramanaduli/Friends,

Quote
"Here Andal is not a small girl. Instead she is a guru who teaches how a jeevathma can reach paramathma. All 30 verses are yoga sutra only"

Our Lady AndAL was in her teens when she composed this wonderful and peerless Tiruppavai that outshines all the rest of the pasurams in the nalayira Divyaprabhandam.AndAL is the avatara of the Divine Mother and is quite unique in her leading the jivas as a satguru.She was in a position to issue 'ultimatums' and 'orders' to the Lord who had to simply comply to her orders!This is why she is AndAL-one who ruled over the Lord.The Lord was eager to wear the Garland that AndAL wore as it was laden with a unique fragrance of her devotion that put the native fragrance of the flowers to flight!AndAL was perfect from Birth and confidently could proclaim to the Lord-punniyam Yaam udaiyOm-We are full of Virtue-By tagging onto her,we also enjoy that privilege!Nowhere in these 30 verses,AndAL has to 'beg' for grace.She asks for it Right royally.We will see it in the 4th verse as to how she does not hesitate to remind the Lord not to hold back this grace on any account.
TGN wonderfully points out that AndAL's guidance is palpably available to all seekers right here and now and all those who chant the tiruppavai and orient themselves in the satsangh will become aware of the Guidance and be lead to the path of bounty and prosperity.
You may refer to his invocatory verse to our Lady AndAL that I have posted.
Namaskar.