Author Topic: Common Discussion  (Read 34691 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2012, 07:30:12 PM »
Sri Ravi,

unfortunately, generally it is seen that simple things are not appealing enough!

The real problem with current spirituality, is it is ridden with philosophic systems or siddhantas.

personally, i would like to keep off from all siddhantas - neither advaita nor dvaita, visishtadvaita, advaitaadvaita, dvaitaadvaita, shunya, shaiva, vaishnava, also want to walk away from the terms brahman, atman, aikyam, mukti, jivanmukti, kingdom of heaven, nirvana, what ever else is left out.

Free from all mad crowd. happy doing things without names attributed, without calling something as bhakti or jnana or discernment or joy and so on :D no care for mukti or bandha.

I remember the wonderful quote of Sharada Devi, who used to scold his disciples for too much effort. She compared them to mangoes on the tree which are being plucked before they are ripe. 'Why hurry?' she used to say. 'Wait till you are fully ripe, mellow and sweet.'

:)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2012, 07:37:08 PM »
Nagaraj,
You are truly blessed.To be utterly simple is to be sahaja.What is important is to have True hunger,and not a stimulated appetite that only leads to dyspepsia. :)
When one is Hungry,the simplest of teachings will do.
Namaskar.

Jewell

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2012, 07:47:32 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi, How i see it,from that quote from Sri Ramakrishna,there is that difference betwean His and Bhagavan's approach,and that is,from Sri Ramakrisha-Remove the dirth(even if i believe that He is not saying that,but He is telling-Love the God,and it will be removed),and Bhagavan's-You are not the dirth. Who wants to remove it? Find him. That is one big difference,but again,only because His words can be interpret it that way,from this contects. And,from my point of view,He is not telling us-You are the sinners,and sinners cannot realise God,but the ego cannot realise the God. And,again,ultimatievly,how i understand,both are leading us to the same point. One was bhakti,other jnana. And that too is mind game,trying to put everything in concept and some category. And,the truth is,both are toys. With love and prayers,

atmavichar100

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2012, 07:54:10 PM »
Quote
personally, i would like to keep off from all siddhantas - neither advaita nor dvaita, visishtadvaita, advaitaadvaita, dvaitaadvaita, shunya, shaiva, vaishnava, also want to walk away from the terms brahman, atman, aikyam, mukti, jivanmukti, kingdom of heaven, nirvana, what ever else is left out.
:)
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2012, 07:57:26 PM »
I am reproducing all the posts from Adhyatma Ramayana Thread. Sri Jewel, you need not take the pain to transfer, but you can just delete your posts :) that would do.

Sri Udai,

Adyaatma Ramayana is truly wonderful. I felt like expressing couple of thoughts. A person of strong faith, realises that Rama is supreme being, simply by the sheer fact that He is Rama, and he killed Ravana, and he was maryada purush. That he is the ideal/perfect man is enough for a layman to realise that He is the Supreme being, a person of such faith does not require to know that Rama was untouched by Suffering, and Sita was Maya, and Rama simply sported the games for giving light to the world and so on.

Where as, on the other hand, the one that is looking for deeper insights on the Truth, that Rama was, who desires to know the nature of para brahman that Rama was, discerns what Rama truly is.

i felt like expressing this to you, and this is not even showing any difference between the two, the former and the latter are happy in their own sweet place. :) is it not?



Dear Nagaraj,
        :)

Quote
:) is it not?
:) No.

Jnana Viheena Sarvamathena, bhajati na muktim janma shatena.
One without jnana, what ever religious system he practises, will not find liberation even in a 100 births.
Lets not discuss this here however. These are like my musings ... if they seem dry to some its ok.

Dear Sri Jewel,

:) I am curious to know your view on Tushnims above expression. Would you be kind enough to please let know your view? Thanks so much.

Quote
:) is it not?
:) No.

Jnana Viheena Sarvamathena, bhajati na muktim janma shatena.
One without jnana, what ever religious system he practises, will not find liberation even in a 100 births.
Lets not discuss this here however. These are like my musings ... if they seem dry to some its ok.



Nagraj, Jewell --- lets move that to common discussion ... its a very common thing for discussion. and this is uncommon thread :D

Dear Sri Nagaraj, Strangly,but truly not strangly at all,without trying to vague betwean Yours and Sri Tushnim expression,i find both statements valid. It doasnt matter what path someone choses,with strong faith and surrender,anyone can realise the Truth,and he dont need to know anything about the facts,or God. And other statement is also correct,because,without jnana,and for me that is knowledge about what is ego,realisation is impossible. So,the first person will arive,with path of love,realising in the end what he realy is,and what ego and God are. In that light other is true also. And the second will arive by the path of knowledge,realising the same thing. But,ultimatievly,both are led by the same power,the Grace and Love. Thats why i say both are same thing,only different in expression,and suited for different kind of people.

So,i will say that we can arive to the Truth no matter what path we chose. And we will arive to it using both in the end,bhakti and jnana. I dont mean on selfinquiry when i say jnana,but on knowledge what the ego,mind,person,maya,realy is. Selfinquiry is the mettod,like there are a many mettods,and we can chose what ever we want. But in the end,we all we realise same thing. And jnana Is the path of introspection,investigation,it doasnt need to apply much learning. Like bhakti is the path of love,with simple surrender to the chosen Ideal. Both are the same. In jnana we have Ideal too,like in bhakti we have knowledge also. In both we have all the thoughts replaced with one. They are,for me,different rutes only,but in essence,both have the same interrelation with knowledge and love. Both come on the same,no matter how we call them. With love and prayers,

Thanks so much Sri Jewel, :)

Now I request Sri Tushnim to please express his views on your,  above expression.



Nagaraj ji , your are very clever.

Coming to the point ... I am going to answer in the common thread and you can delete this and post it there plz ?
then v will discuss  this.


॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Jewell

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2012, 07:58:19 PM »
Dear Sri Nagaraj, Thesa are beautiful words which You quoted from Sri Sarada Devi. And i to believe that this talk about jnana and bhakti is pointless. What is bhakti,what is jnana in the end? What name we can give to Love and Grace,which is only cause of everything. We all will arive to the Truth,no matter what name we give to some path. That same path is the Truth itself,same,one thing,one Autority. With love and prayers,

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2012, 08:08:11 PM »
:) I really appreciate the patience of discussing and debating these at length :).

May the debates, arguments, discussions drop dead :) and let us see what remains...

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2012, 08:11:17 PM »
Jewell -> Myself -> Nagaraj [intermediating] Discussion

If you are purna , Complete here and now ... Anything you do to "attain" purnatvam is a only strengthening the idea that you are not purna.
So ... Jnana alone liberates.
As even the 10th man has only to know that he is the 10th man ... he need not surrender to a 10th man, nor pray to 11th man.

Sri Udai, I request to specifically respond to her post. What you have now said is a different matter, which can be discussed later.

Quote
personally, i would like to keep off from all siddhantas - neither advaita nor dvaita, visishtadvaita, advaitaadvaita, dvaitaadvaita, shunya, shaiva, vaishnava, also want to walk away from the terms brahman, atman, aikyam, mukti, jivanmukti, kingdom of heaven, nirvana, what ever else is left out.

This siddhanta of yours to keep all those siddhantas "off" :D
This will be left out.
Plz leave this , and be a good advaita boy. you will do well.

This, yet again is an onlookers point of view :D if it be a new Siddhanta, hey! :D great, I have discovered a new Siddhanta :D

It is said when Brahma yawned, the hayaghriva demon, swallowed all the vedas :D and Vishnu had to take Matsya Avatar to retrieve all the Vedas once again.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2012, 08:12:26 PM »
Quote
ITs like saying may all waves subside and ill see the true ocean


:) More...

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2012, 08:14:39 PM »
Blessed are those who dont yearn for blessing :)

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Jewell

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2012, 08:45:33 PM »
Dear Sri Tushnim,dear Sri Nagaraj, I dont see the point of this discussion at all. One is talking about the path,and another about one fact which is necessary for liberation. That knowledge Is love only,and that love is knowledge, in the end. And paths,rutes are different expressions of both. These are little different things about which You are talking. And all agree on one fact,that there is no such thing like Realisation. With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 09:26:56 PM by Jewell »

Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2012, 09:10:51 AM »
Tushnim,

Knowledge is love, but Bhakti is not knowledge?  ;)

can you please respond to Sri Jewel's observation -

And paths,rutes are different expressions of both. These are little different things about which You are talking. And all agree on one fact,that there is no such thing like Realisation. With love and prayers,

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2012, 01:06:56 PM »
Quote
The 10th man does not find the 10th man by praying to a 11th man :D even if he prays and the 11th man is very happy, he will only come and tell him : You are the 10th man.
so unless he "KNOWS" he is the 10th man [MENTALLY KNOWS] , he cannot find that 10th man.

Some cases for the 10th Man to test he is mentally fit first  :)

Case-1 : If the 10th Man is normal sane individual , he will understand what the 11th man says that he is the 10th man and stop worrying .

Case -2: If the 10th Men is a  Clinically Depressed person what will you do ? The mind of a clinically depressed person sees things differently. All the logical explanation you have given above just simply does not apply in the mind of a depressed person.
He needs to be treated for depression and brought back to normal and only then will he understand that he is the 10th Man .

Case-3 :If the 10th Man is highly drunk , instead of seeing 10 people he will be seeing 20 people  :)
So no logic will work for him .One needs to wait till he gets over his drunken state and brought back to normal before the logic enters his head that he is the 10th Man .

So in conclusion :
Logical Knowledge can enter the mind of a person only when he is mentally healthy , sane and fit . Self Knowledge enters the mind of a person only when he is mentally /emotionally prepared through the traditional "Four Disciplines  and Six Behavior Traits"( Sadhana Chatushtaya /  shamAdi Shatsampat )
How one acquires those 4 means and 6 virtues may differ - some through Karma , some through Bhakti , some through Yoga and some through a combination of Karma , Yoga , Bhakti .

Quote
The sAdhana chatuShTaya is described by Shankara in the vivekachUDAmaNi as follows:

Adau nityAnityavastuvivekaH parigaNyate |
ihAmutraphalabhOgavirAgasttadanantaram ||
shamAdiShaTkasampattiH mumukShutvamiti sphuTam || - Verse 19.

The first discipline( Viveka )  is the discrimination between the Real and unreal. The next discipline( Vairagya )  is the detachment or dispassion from the enjoyments of the world here and after death (heaven). The third discipline (shamAdi ShaTka sampatti) is the practice of the six behavior traits - shama, dama, uparati, samAdhAna, shraddhA and titikShA; the fourth discipline ( mumukShutva ) is the intense desire for escape from this saMsAra or realization of the divinity in her or him.

Om Peace .
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 01:12:02 PM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2012, 01:27:05 PM »
Quote
please ponder. why is the mind sick ? due to wrong ideas and understanding.

Even to ponder one needs a fit mind first  :)
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2012, 03:56:25 PM »
Sri Atmavichar,

Quote
please ponder. why is the mind sick ? due to wrong ideas and understanding.
Even to ponder one needs a fit mind first  :)

So in conclusion : Logical Knowledge can enter the mind of a person only when he is mentally healthy , sane and fit . Self Knowledge enters the mind of a person only when he is mentally /emotionally prepared through the traditional "Four Disciplines  and Six Behavior Traits"( Sadhana Chatushtaya /  shamAdi Shatsampat )
How one acquires those 4 means and 6 virtues may differ - some through Karma , some through Bhakti , some through Yoga and some through a combination of Karma , Yoga , Bhakti .

Mind need not be fit and all, if ones heart yearns enough, that is enough. Mind is nothing, mind is myth, what do we aspire to realise through mind? IT is through heart that one communions. Prabhakara, the disciple though appearing quite handsome, behaved rather like an idiot, but when his parents bought him to Adi Shankara he sang in gist the tatva rasa of Truth (I do not want to call it Advaita anymore) Shankara named him Hastamalka (one with the amalaka fruit in his hand - Truth)

Nochur Acharya also has said in his talks, Veda Odhuvardu, it is not read, from heart to heart, Truth is awakened by upanishad: upa (nearby), ni (at the proper place, down) and ṣhad (to sit) sitting down near", implying sitting near a teacher to receive instruction or, alternatively, "sitting at the foot of the Master", or "laying siege" to the teacher.

It is not the fitness of mind that is required, it is fitness of the heart. What ever you derive through your mind is useless tinsel. just knowledge garbage. no use of it.

When one is able to see through the Upa Nayana, from the eye of the heart (not of the mind) which is beyond the rationale and logics of mind, one truly becomes blessed. Yato vacho nivartante aprapya manasa saha (where words fail to reach, along with the mind)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta