Author Topic: Common Discussion  (Read 34690 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2012, 06:15:30 PM »
Udai,
Naren just wanted to test Sri Ramakrishna.The
disciples often heard him say that his nervous system had undergone a complete
change as a result of his spiritual experiences, and that he could not bear the touch of
any metal, such as gold or silver. One day, during his absence in Calcutta, Narendra
hid a coin under Ramakrishna's bed. After his return when the Master sat on the bed,
he started up in pain as if stung by an insect. The mattress was examined and the
hidden coin was found.

Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2012, 06:23:29 PM »
Devotee: If it is a question of doing something one considers wrong, and thereby saving some one else from a great wrong, should one do it or refrain from doing it?

Bhagavan: What is right and wrong? There is no standard by which to judge something to be right another to be wrong. Opinions differ according to the nature of the individual and according to the surroundings. They are again ideas and nothing more. Do not worry about them, but get rid of thoughts. If you always remain in the right, then right will prevail in the world.

(The devotee was not satisfied with this answer and asked for further elucidation.)

Sri Bhagavan then pointed out that to see wrong in another is one's own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of sin. One's own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance superimposes it on another. The best course for one is to reach the state in which such discrimination does not arise. Do you see wrong or right in your sleep? Be asleep even in the wakeful state, abide as the Self and remain uncontaminated by what goes on around you. Moreover, however much you might advise them, you hearers may not rectify themselves. Be in the right yourself and remain silent. Your silence will have more effect than your words or deeds. That is the development of will power. Then the world becomes the Kingdom of Heaven, which is within you.

- From Talks



Sri Prashant, we need not defend the Guru to anybody. Let people have their say. What is winning or loosing in discussing the credentials of a Guru? In a way, it is good, you lost, loosing is winning! victory broods pride, 'my Guru is great' Not many realise true winning is in loosing! Don't have strong notions of right and wrongs!

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2012, 06:26:30 PM »
Prashant,
There is no need to defend Sri Ramakrishna or Swami Vivekananda.People carry images and opinions,and as long as they give importance to those,it will be like that only.It is futile to contest that.I generally leave them to their opinions.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2012, 06:40:08 PM »
udai,

"And more importantly one should never try to interpret another person's inspiration by a saint! No one is qualified to do that"

Glad to know that you realize this;i could see very little evidence of it till now. :)

This means that 10 or 100 posts of quotations may also be inspired! :)

I have posted on the Relationship between  being Impressed and Being Inspired.You seem to be saying that inspiration is linked to being impressed.I have debunked this linkage.

Please read what I have posted-It is for you to see whether it is inspiration.

Namaskar.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »
Thanks a lot for all your advices.

Udai garu,

you read my inner heart! Yes little frustation is surely there.

Honestly 90% i am satisfied with guru ramana and due to my prarabdha i was not convinced that he is perfect.

But again i keep telling myself that guru ramana is unique and it will be hard and maybe impossible to find better guru than him who lived such a ascestic life and preached the same.

Due to my prarabdha again i cannot accept any guru who eats non-veg,smokes etc..

I strongly feel i will stay with guru ramana only till my last breath as i think it is hard to find a better guru than our guru ramana who lived and preached deep vairagya.

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Anyways this is the reply i got from my friend when i defended vivekananda.

Dear Prasanth,

A verse from Taittiriya Samhita was even used to endeavour justifying such imprudence. In our humble opinion the verse from shikshavalli relates to the deeds of our ancestors; as far as we are aware the Swami was not of Brahmin kulam and therefore cannot be an ancestor of any Dvijottama. As Brahmins we should not accept anything that flouts our Dharma; that is why we even rejected the teachings of Bhagawan Buddha.

Though we would not criticise any Swami for we are not even the dust from their feet; nevertheless when considering who would be an ideal spiritual mentor Hindus must decide for themselves whether this ‘Swami’ (meaning ‘One who knows and is master of oneself, owner of oneself or one free from the senses’) actually fulfil these defining prerequisites, otherwise this would open the floodgates for fraudsters and vindicate ludicrous claims that even the prophet of Arabia Mahamand is mentioned in Hindu scriptures, though he broke almost every tenet of the Hindu Faith.

 

Indeed who are we to question the morality, lifestyle and habits of a giant like Swami Vivekananda ji but any attempt to question them have been described as digging up some irrelevant facts. But how they were so, we could not understand.

 

Is eating of beef by a Hindu (more so for a Sanyasi even when another type of meat is not available), an act of Dharma that it was thought to be irrelevant?

 

Hindus would unanimously agree that the cow is to be protected as she is most resourceful eating grass and providing milk, personifying mother earth and this principle extends to bulls which care for the earth by tilling the soil.  Those however who wish to consume beef may do so but they cannot evade the universal law of karma.  Being born into Hindu families and that out of the 8.4 million species of life, one would have thought that they should know better.  It is highly objectionable therefore that those ‘Hindu’ beef-eaters and their supporters then try to validate this irregular penchant through interpolated scriptural injunctions.

 

A Sanyasi has to live as per the dictates of Sanyas Dharma as taught in the Shaastras.

 

Flesh eating is a thing too far, even such simple acts of Himsa (as cutting of a twig from a tree for cleansing the teeth) are forbidden to him.

 

And drinking of alcohol constitutes a Mahaa-paatak: a Mahaa Paap. Leave aside a Sanyasi, even an ordinary Hindu if he became a consumer of alcohol, he becomes fallen and an untouchable. It is so heinous in Hindu Dharma that Bhagawan Manu has written: One who keeps the company of such a person for one year; he too becomes the like of him!

 

Brahma-hatyaa suraa-paanam steyam gurvangaanaa-gamah/

Mahaanti paatakaany-aahuh sansargash-ch-api taih saha// 11:54

 

Yag. Sm. 3:219 states: On eating or drinking forbidden foods one falls from jaati:

 

Vihitasya-ananush-thaanaat, ninditasya ch sevanaat/

Anigrahaat-ch-indriyaanaam, narah patanam-richhati//

 

Alcohol drinking is so grievous a sin that the prescribed repentance for it is hair-raising... Such a person has to drink boiling-hot cow-urine, water, milk, ghee or liquid-cow dung (panchagavya) until he falls dead!

 

Gomootram-agni-varnam vaa pibet-udakam-eva vaa/

Payo-ghritam vaa aa-maranaad goshakrit-rasam-eva vaa// Manu 11:91

 

Alternately, he has to eat only Kana grains or oil-cake, and that too once at night for one year, wear clothes made of hair, keep jaTA (matted-hair) and carry a flag showing the symbol of alcohol (to expose the crime):

 

Kanaan-vaa bhakshayet-abdam, pinyaakam-sakrid-nishi/

Suraa-paan-apnuty-artham baal-vaasaa, jatee, dhvajee// 92

 

In fact, alcohol is not a drink of the humans. It is said to be that of the Rakshasas. Manu Smriti has stated that wine, meat and liquor are foods of Raakshasas, Yakshas and Pishaachas:

 

Yaksha raksha pishaach-annam madyam-maansam suraa-aasavam/

Tad braahmanena na attavyam devaa-naam ashnataa-havih// 95.

 

Pork, chicken, onion and garlic too are such items on consuming which one has a fall from Jaati, to regain which, he has to undergo prescribed penances:

 

Chhatra-aakam vid-vaaraaham ch, lashunam graam-kukkutam/

Palaandum grinjanam chaiva, matvaa jagdhvaa patet dvijah// Manu 5:19

 

Now we show what the Scriptures say about eating fish - for which respected Swami Vivekanand jee had a special tooth, a special taste and a special weakness:

 

A person, who eats the meat of an animal, is called eater of that animal. And one who eats fish, therefore, is an eater of everything (including humans) because fish devours everything that has fallen, is found or thrown into water. No one should, therefore, eat fish:

 

Yo yasya maanasam ashnaati sa tan-maans-aad uchyate/

Matsya-aadah sarva-maans-aadas-tasmaat-matsyaan-vivarjayet// 5:15

 

 

Gita says:

 

Yad yad aacharati shreshtthas-tad-tad-eva etaro janaah/

Sa yat-pramaanam kuroote lokas-tad-anuvartate// (3:21)

 

(Whatsoever a great man does, that alone the other men do; whatever he establishes as the standard, the world follows that.)

 

An icon’s life is an ideal for others to follow. Do we want our people to imitate these habits of Swami jee and start eating fish, beef and other Maunkshoos; and our women to become chain smokers?

 

Greater dangers are the Hindu political leaders who smoke cigarettes and consume all kinds of meats, including beef; are bereft of faith and belief in Dharma, and do not follow and practise it, its principles and the Scripture-taught traditional ways of life.

 

How many Muslims would one be able to find who were consumers of pork? And if at all one did find someone, would he ever be accepted as a Mullah or a Maulana by the scholars; nay, even by the common Muslims?

 

It baffles us how a person who had declared that he was a Sanyasi could, at the same time, be a devourer of the flesh of harmless, innocent animals (even cows) as well. How could this then be describable as an example of understanding the suffering of sentient beings?

 

We are also not able to understand how slaughter of animals does not -- or would not -- cause pain and sufferance to them? So far as we have read and understood our Dharmic Texts, a Sanyasi ought to try to alleviate pain and sufferance of the beings; not bring about them.

 

Furthermore all Brahmins should consider and investigate the following and kindly inform us all as to:

 

1. Which was the order (of Sanyasis) into which he was ordained? Whose order was it, and who was his Guru who had initiated him into this Ashram?

 

2. Also, did he go into it stepwise after going through the previous three Ashramas, or had gone straight into it? If the latter; was it possible (especially in his case) in accordance with our Dharma, teachings of the Scriptures and the traditions?

 

3. So far as our knowledge goes, Swami jee had not gone through even the first Ashrama of Brahmacharya. How could he have entered the fourth and the last one then?

 

Shri Ramkrishna Paramhans also could not have initiated him because he himself was a Grihasthi and not a Sanyasi. Moreover, at the time of the death of Shree Paramhannsa, Swami jee was still Narendranath, and had not become Vivekanand. (This can be confirmed from his photographs at that time.)

 

Who then was his Guru who had given him the SanyAsa and the new name and the sacred robes?

 

We are afraid, it was he himself! It was he who had pretended it, chose and adopted the new name, donned the robes and became a sanyasi without going through any formal initiation! The order into which he entered too was not an authentic and recognised one. It was a new one started by him!

 

Now; could this be done? And was it possible, right and in order in accordance with our traditions, practices and Scriptural teachings? If it was; how, and on what pramaans?

 

Another question that comes to our mind is about his entitlement to it. Was he entitled to become a Sanyasi? If so; how, and on which Scriptural authority?

 

Lastly, there is an aphorism which asserts, ‘yatha guru tatha shishya.’ A disciple will invariably emulate his spiritual role model and if this Swami is free from vice or desire; is compassionate, selfless, wise and upholding the tenets of Dharma related in our scriptures, then verily his devoted followers will be shining emissaries of their preceptor.  Regrettably, if any ‘Swami’ be a slave to the senses, narcissistic, defiant, and unconventional, going against the precepts of Hindu scriptures, then invariably his fervent devotees will propound and uphold such notions blaspheming in the name of Sanatana Dharma.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2012, 06:55:53 PM »
satsangatve nissngatvam
nissangatve nirmohatvam
nirmohatve nishchalatattvam
nishcalatattve jiivanmuktih
 
From Satsanga comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jivan Mukti (liberation).

More importantly, AcAryAs have said that one should have santsang with SAT PURUSHA not with miscellaneous people, which will only derail oneself further

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2012, 07:10:42 PM »
Prashant,
Interesting to go through the longish mail from your acquaintance.All the points can be refuted,but to what purpose. :)

Let us take this :
" In our humble opinion the verse from shikshavalli relates to the deeds of our ancestors; as far as we are aware the Swami was not of Brahmin kulam and therefore cannot be an ancestor of any Dvijottama. As Brahmins we should not accept anything that flouts our Dharma"

Just ask this person whether he accepts Bhagavad Gita as authentic.Did he accept Lord Sri Krishna?Was Sri Krishna a Brahmin?

Great souls like Swami Vivekananda ,unlike the ordinary jivas,are not born on account of Karma to be worked out.Unlike ordinary jivas who struggle to free themselves from Karma,The Nitya Siddhas like swami Vivekananda impose upon themselves the 'Yoke' of Bondage to do the work for which they are born!They have to assume 'Desires' in order to continue their physical existence.Swamiji used to occasionaly eat meat in order to increase 'Rajas'!This 'Rajoguna' had to be assumed by him to combat the Tamoguna of the masses.He was born in a Kshatriya caste.
It is like the mother has to soil her hand if she has to wash the baby's bottom.

If you are genuinely interested,I am willing to invest time to go through this and answer the charges.I do not think it is necessary at all.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2012, 07:34:25 PM »
Prashant,

Quote
"So far as our knowledge goes, Swami jee had not gone through even the first Ashrama of Brahmacharya. How could he have entered the fourth and the last one then?
Shri Ramkrishna Paramhans also could not have initiated him because he himself was a Grihasthi and not a Sanyasi. Moreover, at the time of the death of Shree Paramhannsa, Swami jee was still Narendranath, and had not become Vivekanand. (This can be confirmed from his photographs at that time.)
Who then was his Guru who had given him the SanyAsa and the new name and the sacred robes?
We are afraid, it was he himself! It was he who had pretended it, chose and adopted the new name, donned the robes and became a sanyasi without going through any formal initiation! The order into which he entered too was not an authentic and recognised one. It was a new one started by him."

No,the Knowledge does not go beyond 'Om Bhuhu';I mean Nose! :)

Sri Ramakrishna was initiated by Tota puri,who belongs to the Puri order of Sanyasis.This is how Sri Ramakrishna was initiated into sannyAsa:

"In the burning flame before him Sri Ramakrishna performed the rituals of destroying his
attachment to relatives, friends, body, mind, sense-organs, ego, and the world. The leaping
flame swallowed it all, making the initiate free and pure. The sacred thread and the tuft of
hair were consigned to the fire, completing his severance from caste, sex, and society. Last
of all he burnt in that fire, with all that is holy as his witness, his desire for enjoyment here
and hereafter. He uttered the sacred mantras giving assurance of safety and fearlessness to
all beings, who were only manifestations of his own Self. The rites completed, the disciple
received from the guru the loincloth and ochre robe, the emblems of his new life".


Sri Ramakrishna had subsequently practised other sadhanas as well;that is a big story that I have posted in the Rough note book thread.

It was Sri Ramakrishna who distributed the Ochre robes to his sanyasin Disciples,although they took formal vows after his passing away.Swami Vivekananda did not assume this name;he just wandered the length and breadth of the country assuming various names .It was Khetri Maharaja who pleaded and requested swamiji to accept the Name 'Vivekananda'!

Prashant,We need to first read the Biographies of these Great ones and also reminiscences by devotees to get to know them.Ofcourse,it is through their teachings that the understanding becomes crystallized.
Namaskar.

Jewell

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2012, 07:35:40 PM »
Dear Friends,

I must say,with any intention to offend someone,that i didnt read recently something so norow,rigid and fundamentalistic like that letter Sri Prasanth posted. It is very important that every sentence begins with Gita said. So we need a book to tell us how to live,and that is also a matter how we interpret that book,so any discrimination from us is completely unnecesary coz Gita,Bible etc said! And we will interpret the book which is that old,in 21 centuiry,in the same way like those people back then.
Also,we need a perfect person to tell us that All this is Illusion,and dream! He needs to be perfect because of what exactly? And what doas metter if someone smoke? How can that be sin in any way,i would like that someone explane that to me. Who decided that it is a sin?
So,we need perfect man to show us the Truth,and then what?! Then we will follow. I dont think so,the problem is in us not in Sages.
WE had Krishna,Rama,Buddha,Jesus,Muhamed,Ramakrishna,Bhagavan,Vivekananda,Yogananda,Osho,Nisargadatta,Aurobindo,and a thousant more Great ones and Saints,and we are not satisfied,they are not to clean and virtous for us,siners! What irony! That kind of person wont see God even if He hit him in the forehead!
I am sorry,but i simply must to reply something. Sure,only to letter,not to You Sri Prasanth!

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2012, 07:52:58 PM »
Dear Ravi agru and Jewell garu and udai garu,

Thanks a lot in throwing some light in ramakrishna's biography and posting your views.

I respect vivekananda a lot and infact i have posted number of articles from his completed-works and few of the sayings of sri ramakrishna in my blog.

http://www.prashantaboutindia.blogspot.co.uk/

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2012, 12:26:20 PM »
yes thanks a lot udai garu.

Jewell

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2012, 02:12:19 PM »
Quote
Man cannot really help the world. God alone does that — He Who has created the sun and the moon, Who has put love for their children in parents' hearts, endowed noble souls with compassion, and holy men and devotees with divine love. The man who works for others, without any selfish motive, really does good to himself. There is gold buried in your heart, but you are not yet aware of it. It is covered with a thin layer of earth. Once you are aware of it, all these activities of yours will lessen

Dear Hari,

This is one of my favourite quotations of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa! It have so much truth in it.
Thank You!

Hari

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2012, 03:10:52 PM »
Yes, there is a lot of truth! Thank you, dear Jewell!
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Ravi.N

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2012, 03:35:05 PM »
Jewell/Hari/Friends,
Sri Ramakrishna is sweet and childlike;yet he wielded the sledge hammer as and when required and crush egotism!
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna as to how the Master put Kristodas pal in his place!

Kristodas Pal

The Europeanized Kristodas Pal did not approve of the Master's emphasis on renunciation and said: "Sir, this cant of renunciation has almost ruined the country. It is for this reason that the Indians are a subject nation today. Doing good to others, bringing education to the door of the ignorant, and above all, improving the material conditions of the country - these should be our duty now. The cry of religion and renunciation would, on the contrary, only weaken us. You should advise the young men of Bengal to resort only to such acts as will uplift the country."

 Sri Ramakrishna gave him a searching look and found no divine light within. "You man of poor understanding!" Sri Ramakrishna said sharply. "You dare to slight in these terms renunciation and piety, which our scriptures describe as the greatest of all virtues! After reading two pages of English you think you have come to know the world! You appear to think you are omniscient. Well, have you seen those tiny crabs that are born in the Ganges just when the rains set in? In this big universe you are even less significant than one of those small creatures. How dare you talk of helping the world? The Lord will look to that. You haven't the power in you to do it."

After a pause the Master continued:
"Can you explain to me how you can work for others? I know what you mean by helping them. To feed a number of persons, to treat them when they are sick, to construct a road or dig a well - Isn't that all? These are good deeds, no doubt, but how trifling in comparison with the vastness of the universe! How far can a man advance in this line? How many people can you save from famine? Malaria has ruined a whole province; what could you do to stop its onslaught? God alone looks after the world. Let a man first realize Him. Let a man get the authority from God and be endowed with His power; then, and then alone, may he think of doing good to others. A man should first be purged of all egotism. Then alone will the Blissful Mother ask him to work for the world."

This is one of the strongest reprimands that I have ever encountered ,one that thoroughly demolished all 'concept' of helping the world! :)
Namaskar.

Jewell

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Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2012, 03:59:38 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Beautiful words of Sri Ramakrishna! And i like Your ways of putting in everything some subbtle message and points. Thank You for that!!

Quote
God alone looks after the world. Let a man first realize Him. Let a man get the authority from God and be endowed with His power; then, and then alone, may he think of doing good to others.

This i love the most. We cannot know what is good and bad,what is right or wrong,untill we know the Truth. Not everything is like it seems,and everything can have some other purpouse,then obvious one. We should not take anything like the fact.

With love and prayers,