Author Topic: Common Discussion  (Read 33262 times)

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2012, 03:59:34 PM »
This may be of good context to this thread.

A wise old Zen master, very near death, lay quietly on his mat with his eyes closed, all his disciples gathered around. Kneeling closest to him was his number one disciple, a longtime practitioner who would succeed the old man as head of the monastery. At one point the old master opened his eyes, and lovingly gazed at each and every one of his disciples assembled in the crowded room. Finally his glance rested on his successor, and he managed to speak his last words to the man: “Ah, my son, you have a very thorough knowledge of the teachings and scriptures, and you have shown great discipline in keeping the precepts. Your behavior has, in fact, been flawless. Yet there is one more thing remaining to be cleared up: you still reek and stink of ‘Zen’!”

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2012, 04:16:48 PM »
Dear Friends,

I want to express that, in general, Sri Tushnim's expressions are not acceptable to me, they are primarily against the founding principles of Veda and the fundamental messages of the great saints. In my limited understanding, they do not conform to the Veda Shastras, even though here and there, some of his points may be found to be of help, over all, they do not seem acceptable to me. very subtly, he has been expressing some teachings that are not in the line of the teachings of Bhagavan Ramana or Sri Ramakrishna or Shirdi Sai Baba, and has been misrepresenting and misquoting the quotes of Adi Shankara at various instances.

Tushnim's expressions are a classic example of Neo-Advaitic school thoughts.

Some may be of the opinion that even through this way one can attain to the Truth. IT may be so, but i do not find it in conforming in the lines of Veda shastras.

He uses some of Sri Annamalai Swami's quotes here and there to justify his stands, but in such cases, Sri Annamalai Swami can say it, as he is saying so from a different place altogether. But I feel, some times his expressions are purely for swadhyaaya Self Study alone and not for sharing between disciples in quest for truth. Some times, the Guru may say some things that are completely against the tenets of Shastras, but the True Guru knows, he is the Guru, but we do not have any such authority, to do so. Infact, personally, the two books of Sri Annamalai swami, to me, is personal diary of Sri David Godman, which he has graciously published for the benefit of others. I have immensely benefited from the study of these books, but i never really took in to quoting from these books, in exchanges, because, it is one-to-one direct conversation of Sri David Godman and Sri Annamalai Swami. It is his upanishad. Some of the quotes of Sri Annamalai Swami too, do not find confirmation in Ramana literature, in my limited knowledge. But, Guru-Leela is beyond the scope of mind. I read, that Ramanashram has stopped selling the books on Sri Annamalai Swami (not sure). I felt it may be so because, it sort of was crating a parallel Guru, which the Ashram might have had reservation, this 'reservation' that they might have had, arises from the adhering to the tenets of Veda Shastras, it prevailed upon Clarity and for overall benefit of so many devotees who come for solace and not have them sent in confusion with parallel thoughts.

Somewhere i came across perhaps in David Godman website that Munagala Venkatrammaiah took his call and omitted certain quotations from his Talks with Bhagavan, because, he would have found them to be against the tenets of Vedas, what compassion and level of sensitivity it displayes on the part of Sri Munagala. This arises from adhering to the principles of Veda Shastras, all conversations are merely personal one-to-one conversations that we see in Ramana literature, they are primarily personal teachings.



This is nothing against the person Sri Tushnim, He is my friend, :) but his expressions are not acceptable to me.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:19:27 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2012, 09:39:45 PM »
I was talking of mind fit for Self-Knowledge and the following quote of Swami Paramarthananda on one of his talks of  Sri Dakshinamurti Stotram will make it more clear .

The indication of a purified mind is radical reduction of likes and dislikes, expectation from the people and the world.A non-complaining and prepared mind can understand Vedanta.

Om Peace .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

sanjaya_ganesh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2012, 06:12:52 AM »
Quote
Don't make the mistake of imagining that there is a goal to be reached or attained. If you think like this you will start looking for methods to practice and people to help you.This just perpetuates the problem you are trying to end

Annamalai Swamiji is a true sage. What a clarity and what a truth. After recognising and experiencing this - not a single word of any other scripture is needed.

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2012, 06:40:37 AM »
Sanjaya/udai/Friends,

Quote
Don't make the mistake of imagining that there is a goal to be reached or attained. If you think like this you will start looking for methods to practice and people to help you.This just perpetuates the problem you are trying to end

Quote
Annamalai Swamiji is a true sage. What a clarity and what a truth. After recognising and experiencing this - not a single word of any other scripture is needed

No doubt about annamalai swami and his saying.All that we are pointing out is this-

Do we now truly have the clarity and the experience?What is the Proof of this 'clarity and experience'?

To just keep saying-'Nowhere to go,nothing to do' means nothing.Even a Lazy person would say That.This is purely subjective and that cannot mean anything.

If we truly have 'nowhere to go and Nothing to do' it should lead to 'Noone to go anywhere or to do anything'.If there is 'noone' then everyone is oneself.Then everywhere is where one is.Any path is one's path.Any Place is one's place.

El OR empaavaai(Listen,ponder my Girl!It is the month of marghazhi and of Tiruppavai and tiruvempavai)

Namaskar.



Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2012, 08:35:58 AM »
udai,

Why is annamalai Swami saying this?Very good question.This needs to be understood with Clarity and Depth.Clarity and Depth go together;otherwise Clarity will not be clarity.
What Annamalai Swami is saying is said in a different way by Sri Aurobindo:

"Our sense of personal effort and aspiration comes from the attempt of the egoistic mind to identify itself in a wrong and imperfect way with the workings of the divine Force. It persists in applying to experience on a supernormal plane the ordinary terms of mentality which it applies to its normal experiences in the world. In the world we act with the sense of egoism; we claim the universal forces that work in us as our own; we claim as the effect of our personal will, wisdom, force, virtue the selective, formative, progressive action of the Transcendent in this frame of mind, life and body. Enlightenment brings to us the knowledge that the ego is only an instrument; we begin to perceive and feel that these things are our own in the sense that they belong to our supreme and integral Self, one with the Transcendent, not to the instrumental ego. Our limitations and distortions are our contribution to the working; the true power in it is the Divine's. When the human ego realises that its will is a tool, its wisdom ignorance and childishness, its power an infant's groping, its virtue a pretentious impurity, and learns to trust itself to that which transcends it, that is its salvation. The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to our little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. The self-abnegation of the ego in the Divine is its self-fulfillment; its surrender to that which transcends it is its liberation from bonds and limits and its perfect freedom".

El Or empAvAi

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2012, 08:47:05 AM »
udai,
Self does not need to recognize Self.(Nondual Idea)

Recognition is of the wrong way of Seeing only.Anologies only serve to point out Truth.Sadhana is required to Experience Truth.(Practical Idea)
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »
Udai,
You will understand if you add the dimension of Depth which is why you are only clutching at the 'Words' and Sentences'.
As long as the 'i' persists,there is no possibility of Experiencing TRuth.Carry on with your sadhana and what you have understood.
Namaskar

atmavichar100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2012, 09:01:28 AM »
Quote
People think i am saying sadhana is not required. While every now and then i also say sadhana is a must ... they see that i am self contradictory. The point is sadhana is for what ? its not to attain or realize Self. its to not identify with the vasanas that I am non-Self. Thats all.

You mean Sadhana is for "not identifying with the bonding vasanas"  .Have I understood rightly?
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »
Udai,
Just see that all your Specifics are needless hairsplitting.
You are saying 'Nonidentification' with the vasana;Another may say'Give up the vasana'.Each one does what is accessible to him.The Fundamental thing to note is that what is intrinsic alone is going to be intrinsic and what is extrinsic is going to be outgrown and dropped anyway.No need to then stop identifying oneself with what is dropped.
Problem lies in 'My watch alone shows Correct time'
Namaskar.


atmavichar100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #115 on: December 22, 2012, 09:20:06 AM »
EXACTLY.

SADHANA is not to attain or Realize Self.
Having known that Self is the Awarness ... Screen on which all this is going on...
Remain unidentified with the non-self.
As Annamalai Swami Explains here :

Quote
POST 16:

pg 271-2, Living by the words of bhagavan


Quote
      Continuous inhalation and exhalation are necessary for continuation of life. Continuous meditation is necessary for all those who want to stay in the Self.
You divide your life up into different activities: "I am eating", "I am meditating", "I am working", etc. If you have ideas like these you are still identifiying with the body. Get rid of all these ideas and replace them with the single thought , "I am Self", Hold onto that idea and dont let it go. Dont give these "I am the body" ideas any attention.
"I must eat now", "I will go to sleep now", "I will have a bath now", all thoughts like these  are I am the body thoughts. Learn to recognize them when they arise and learn to ignore them or deny them. Stay firmly seated in the Self and dont allow the mind to identify with anything that the body does.

Ok then if I need to sum up the entire spiritual journey it  is :
1) First Prepare for receiving the self knowledge through "Sadhana Chatushtaya"
2) Then receive Self Knowledge from a Guru ( through Sravanam , Mananam )
3) After receiving the Self knowledge internalize the knowledge through Niddhidayasanam which we use the term Sadhana for "Not identifying with the  binding vasanas"

So in essence there is Sadhana before Self Knowledge and Sadhana after self knowledge and for receiving the self knowledge one just needs to listen /study the scriptures under a Guru
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 09:36:25 AM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #116 on: December 22, 2012, 09:40:01 AM »
udai,
You are again confusing the nondual and Dualistic viewpoints.
Now you are bringing in additional points like Meditation and samadhi,etc.This way we can never have a discussion.
Stay focussed on the point discussed.
As a Child you would have played Cricket and as you grew up you watched Cricket and as you grow older you stopped watching cricket.
All these are Experiences that belong to that stage of mental development.Now do not take the example too literally.In all these different experiences 'oneself' is central and Intrinsic.'Playing Cricket,Watching Cricket,Stop watching Cricket' -all these are extrinsic and are bound to leave one.Nothing stays with us.Now,we cannot define 'the moment' of Giving up.It may happen sooner to one,and later to someone.It may happen abruptly and utterly to someone and Gradually&intermittently to someone.
Each one is unique and hence the path he traverses is personal ,although the so called 'Goal' may be impersonal and hence not different to one and all.
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #117 on: December 22, 2012, 09:50:51 AM »
Quote
Very much true, with small comments:
1. Dont want for "Sadhana Chatushtayam". From my experience, I improved in them as I kept hearing guru ji. Start with Sravana. 3 takes care of any lapses in 1.
2. in (3) , you have made a typo : Not identifying with the non binding vasanas" , its not identifying with binding vasanas.

You are absolutely correct. And I stress the importance of Sravanam here which enables the others.
Annamalai Swami's talks are no less  that an upanishad for that matter.

Ok Made the change in Vasanas in my previous post .

As regards "Sravanam" ,I feel it is a big art in itself .The Art of Listening is the biggest of all arts and most difficult to practice .
In J.Krishnamurti's complete works of 17 Volumes  the first volume is titled  " The Art of Listening " .I also posted here few days back a quote "When you know how to listen ,Everybody is the Guru" .

So I agree Sravanam is very important but how competent one is in that is the big question .
I have bought 2 books  called " The Lost Art of Listening " by Micahel P Nicholas , Practicing the Sacred Art of Listening by Kay Lindhal . After reading through them only I understood how much poor we are when it comes to listening and we confuse hearing to listening .
Will share more about it later .

Om Peace
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4055
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #118 on: December 22, 2012, 09:56:50 AM »
udai,
You are again confusing the dualistic and Nondualistic standpoints.
For Sadhana ,a Goal is required.When Swami is saying there is 'no Goal' he is referring to the fact that it is not something extrinsic to oneself.One need not imagine it and run after the imagined.
If you see Tim 's video on annamalai Swami,he clearly mentions how he experienced a 'coolness'(kulirchi in Tamizh)referring to his chest in the middle.This sort of a pointing to a definitive experience is indeed required,as the seeker then knows that he is moving in the Right direction.Not just this,it acts as an incentive and automatically makes him drop all that has to be dropped;rather they drop away!No need to 'Stop identifying'!

'Ultimately'-Is this not Hypothetical?It is as if saying that one should eat the 'Last Banana' right at the outset.That would have obviated the need in wasting time in eating the previous Bananas!
May be there is no 'Ultimate' at all!
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #119 on: December 22, 2012, 10:02:03 AM »
Quote
If I listen to Osho or JK ... I will be left searching in loops.
jk confuses people a lot ... unnecessarily, in my opinion.

 :)
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha