Author Topic: Common Discussion  (Read 36206 times)

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Common Discussion
« on: October 25, 2012, 07:04:36 PM »
Common discussion thread. Sri Tushnim, kindly request you to continue the discussion here.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 07:25:38 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

I think even previously in a similar conversation, i pointed that you are mixing up lashyArtha (end goal) with yatArthA (what is real [now])

There is no difference (between the mind and self) . The mind turned inwards is the Self; turned outwards, it becomes the ego and all the world. Cotton made into various clothes we call by various names. Gold made into various ornaments, we call by various names. But all the clothes are cotton and all the ornaments gold. The one is real, the many aremere names and forms.

But the mind does no exist apart from the Self, that is, it has no independent existence. The Self exists without the mind, never the mind without the Self.


myself and yourself is there as much as in a dream !

Sir Please see... what I am trying to claim is not that "I am Liberated"... thats not any intention.
there are vasanas.

question is ... when i feel bound by vasanas... who is this "I" ?
Is Awareness getting affected?

The Self gone outward is mind, the same self is projected as mind. Yes awareness is affected as the Self is not in abidance the moment there is some vAsanA generated.

when mind is calm... has awareness gained calmness ?
when mind is agitated ... has awareness become agitated ?

Nobody questions whene one is calm. when Mind is agitated, then yes, Awareness has become agitated as the awareness is no more pure, it is camouflaged with dirts of vAsanAs. There is no time separate awareness to say that the awareness is not agitated, the awareness or Self is now in mind form, filled with dirt! When agitated there is loss of Self or awareness. You may jump to and forth becoming aware of the situation, but it is not a niShtA. It is disturbance and repeated effort is made to cease from going outwards.

can we "re-educate" the mind exactly when it says "i am angry" that "I am awareness that is neither angry nor calm" ?
Thats the question sir.

"Re-educating" at that moment when mind claims "i am happy or i am full of sorrow" that "I Am awareness and have nothing to do with mind" ... thats what i am talking about.
the need for reeducation is there because the education "I am awareness" is incomplete and mere "thought" for most of us. so it needs to be taken inside and has to get deeper. Thats why a Ribhu gita is important.

Yes, any way of re-educating is good, but, it depends on the extent of strangle hold of vAsanAs, when it is too strong, mere re-educating wont suffice, as it is bound to re-appear again, re-educating slowly and slowly only is possible, untill the root of that vAsanAs is plucked out completely, when anger (or any other vAsanA) would not surface at all. That is the lakshyArtA.

if anger keeps coming, if lust keeps coming, if desire keeps coming and one keeps repeatedly re-educating oneself again and again without striving to go to the root of the vAsanAs and completely destroy it with proper vichArA, there is no use.

Just re-educating again and again served only temporary purpose. The root has to be plucked! That is the solution, as far as I have understood the teachings of Bhagavan.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 07:29:01 PM »
If going to the roots of vAsanAs is difficult there is another indirect way, that is the path of Bhakti.
Bhakti is a way by means of which one can transcend all the vAsanAs into one's advantage. Your lust becomes your love. your desires becomes your worship, and so on!

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2012, 07:43:04 PM »
Awareness does not keep changing : agitated, pure etc.
Awareness is ever pure!
Otherwise one cannot say chideva manasah parah... awareness beyond mind! [ribhu gita]
it becomes mind!

Awareness does not change, but when when you cover the awareness or Self with various sheeths, then it takes various forms!

Self is changeless.
Mind is all changes.
how is Self mind ?
Self does not have any change!

The Self does not change, the same gold is made into a jewelry form and we take it to be a ring or necklace and cease from forgetting the reality of substratum, that it is mere Gold! Gold only has become various jewels. In the same way, Self gone outwards is mind like the king - beggar example! He has ever remained a king, yet he had become a beggar! Gold. cotton always as been gold and cotton, yet it became different jewelry and different garments.

Vasanas cannot be plucked unless they come out. When they come out...non-identification kills them

Mere non-identification will not be enough, the repeated appearances of vAsanAs are a proof of this! One has to discern, to the extant that one ceases from getting scared from a ghost pole (the problem is, since we have over used these examples such as ghost pole illustrations, they are not really having real impact on the true import)

one has to wake from sleep in order to end the dream! and waking up does not happen only by mere knowledge that i have quoted here.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 08:15:18 PM »
Dear Nagaraj and others,

Vasanas will disappear only when Self Inquiry is seriously pursued.  Vasanas are deeply imbedded in the mind.  They are like
tuber root of a tree. Only Self Inquiry will remove it lock stock and barrel.

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 08:36:20 PM »
Dear Sir,

yes, vAsanAs will efface out completely, not only by serious persuasion of Self Inquiry alone, any sAdhanA pursued with utmost sincerity will result in the effacement the ego, giving into it completely and wholeheartedly!

I believe, somewhere we have to accept the yatArthA, that we want to enjoy this human life to some extant. We should not deny ourselves our living, in the name of Realisation. The haTa yogA is all about forcing oneself, the very word hatA means the use of persistence or force in order to achieve an end.

We have to sail calmly and smoothly, we should at least free ourselves from this urgency to realise. Somewhere we came across, that Enlightenment can wait, yes, let it wait! Infact wait it out completely that it runs out of patience to come to us :)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4061
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 08:59:21 PM »
Udai,
"God bless this forum really! I wish Ramana guides it somehow! "

Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

God's grace is the ultimate help

"You may try thousands of times, but nothing can be achieved without God's grace. One
cannot see God without His grace. Is it an easy thing to receive the grace of God? One must
altogether renounce egotism; one cannot see God as long as one feels, 'I am the doer.'
Suppose, in a family, a man has taken charge of the store-room; then if someone asks the
master, 'Sir, will you yourself kindly give me something from the store-room?', the master
says to him: 'There is already someone in the store-room. What can I do there?'

So,udai as long as there is another 'teacher' here, how do you expect God or Ramana will guide this 'Forum' :)
When we are truly silent God speaks,and if we speak God is silent.This is simple Truth.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4061
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2012, 09:12:56 PM »
Udai,
you are saying:
"Sraddha is not Faith. Thats pathetic translation. It is a attitude of beginners mind in zen. that aids the student explore and find out for himself. that attitude which made ramakrishna go to guru to find about god and sincerely see whether what the guru says is true ... that attitude is bhakti".

You certainly are entitled to your ideas,but when it comes to Sri Ramakrishna,better to refer to what he says.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

"How can a devotee attain such love? First, the company of holy men. That awakens
śraddhā, faith in God.
Then comes nishtha, single-minded devotion to the Ideal. In that
stage the devotee does not like to hear anything but talk about God.
He performs only those
acts that please God. After nishtha comes bhakti, devotion to God; then comes bhava. Next
mahabhava, then prema, and last of all the attainment of God Himself
."

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4061
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2012, 10:36:27 PM »
Udai/Friends,

Quote
"Sraddha is not Faith. Thats pathetic translation. It is a attitude of beginners mind in zen. that aids the student explore and find out for himself"

Sraddha it is to adhere to the words or teaching or advice or Routine or prescription 100% .This means fidelity,faithfulness,trust,Diligence.If one has taken the medicine prescribed by a doctor at the appointed time and according to the Dosage recommended,the patient has sraddha in the Doctor's prescription.No exploration is called for.

The srAddha ceremony is so called on account of the one who performs the ceremony adhere to all the Prescribed Karma anushtanas as laid down in the scriptures and absolutely observing all the Directions.There is no exploration ,in fact such explorations and inquisitiveness will smother Sraddha.Sraddha means unquestioning adherence and implies that the Prescriptions of the Sastras having been recommended by wise ones will definitely bring about the intended result.This is nothing but Faith.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4061
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 09:46:09 AM »
udai,
You seem to be banking your arguement on Terrorists!Do you think that is Sraddha?Every terrorist has an agenda,to take revenge,to take sides,to be a mercenary who is prepared to sacrifice his life in return for some remuneration for his family,etc.Never ever is it that his effort is to Realize God or to act in accordance with the dictates of the wise ones.
It is for that 'Moment' and nothing at all for eternity.If allowed sometime,the so called 'Sraddha'(Heat)will cool off.It needs external stimulation to keep it going.
Sraddha is intrinsic,and  implies Steadiness,and it is prepared to wait for Eternity and willing to last forever until the Thing that it does NOT SEE  gets realized.
Anyone with a rudimentary intelligence can see this aspect that is unmistakeable,unless one is trying to prove it wrong willy nilly! :)

One who has Sraddha is patient;One who is a fanatic is impatient.There is a world of a difference between the two.
One who has Sraddha is concerned with the wellbeing of others;one who is a fanatic is only motivated to further his clan.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4061
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 12:06:59 PM »
udai,
It is very elementary.A Man is as his faith is.If he places his faith in temporal,he will achieve temporal objectives.If he places his faith in Eternal verities,he will achieve that.The Power of Sraddha lies in its application.It does not mean that one sets aside his power of Discrimination,Dispassion,etc,all of which have their role to play as well.
The Term Sraddha or Faith as it is called, is used in spiritual Realm for what it is,unquestioning adherence to what is said by The Guru and What is said in The Sastras as well;if what the Guru says is not in accordance with the Sastra,it cannot be relied upon.If it cannot be relied upon,there is no way one can have Faith in such a recommendation.
Faith never contradicts Reason but is beyond it,but it is prior to only actual Realization;It brings about Realization.
It is like the power of attention;If it is placed in Business,one achieves success in Business.If it is placed in Studies,one achieves success in Studies.If it is on inner verities,one grows into that.
So ,coming back to' faith' of the Terrorist,it is quite clear that it is not based on verification of a Realization as an outcome.If the outcome cannot be verified,it is Belief only;Belief that he will go to Heaven after Death.This is very very elementary to understand.
Sraddha on the other hand is where the Outcome is open for verification as an outcome while Living.The Very Sraddha is based on this eventual verification(This is different than a questioning exploration!)and not just that,it precipitates that outcome as well!
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 12:11:49 PM »
'Shraddha' has no real equivalent in English, at best it can be understood as, faith with love and reverence. Such faith or trust is generated out of conviction, which may not be the result of any rational belief or intellectual wisdom, but a spiritual inspiration.  This aspect can be abundantly found in the life story of Shirdi Sai Baba -

Baba sowed the seeds of spiritual inspiration in the hearts of people who knew of him.  This Divine inspiration was so instant and profound that they automatically took refuge in Him.

Baba reiterated that steadfast love in God as the gateway to eternity.  He used the instance of mother tortoise to illustrate this point.  The mother - tortoise may be on the other side of the river, whereas her children are on the far side.  She does not transfer food and water to her children by way of her loving glances.  Yet, her loving looks are enough to protect the children. Similarly, people who lovingly look at God get His reciprocity.  God's looks offer peace, protection and prosperity for His children. Baba's teaching, both direct and indirect explicate the significance of 'Shraddha'.  Baba reiterates the spiritual guidance of Shri Krishna to Arjun - "Who-so ever offer to Me with love or devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, that offering of pure love is readily accepted by Me".

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 12:31:20 PM »
here is what srI shankarA has to say:

शास्त्रस्य गुरुवाक्यस्य सत्यबुद्ध्यवधारणम् ।
सा श्रद्धा कथिता सद्भिर्यया वस्तूपलभ्यते ॥२५॥


shAstrasya guruvAkyasya satyabuddhyA avadhAraNA |
sA shraddhA kathitA sadbhiH yayA vastu upalabhyate || 25
 
The firm conviction that what the scriptures and the guru say is true, is called `shraddha' by the wise. By this (shraddha) the reality is attained.

The faithful holding on strong to the words of the Guru with the right humility and reverence is held as shradDhA by which the Truth is grasped.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:33:11 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4061
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 12:34:28 PM »
Udai,
Quote
"One places faith in guru , not on objects!
So the guy has faith in his guru.
someone else has faith in his own guru."

One places Faith to achieve something.Every Faith has an objective.If there is no objective,there need be no Faith.One places Faith in The Guru to achieve that Objective!

Coming to sraddha,one is not questioning it by weighing pros and cons all along the way,but unquestioningly adhering to the teaching by actualizing it in Practice,and this in itself precipitates the Outcome.This outcome then is open for verification.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Common Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 12:39:39 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

Friend, your arguments about openness and your views on shradDhA, seem more like an anguish of nobody listening to what you have to say!

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta