Author Topic: my musings  (Read 116445 times)

deepa

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2012, 10:16:36 PM »

Nagaraj-ji, Thanks for the examples. And Subramanian-ji, for the beautiful Tamil verses.

I heard another example from a Chinmaya mission swamiji during a Dasa shloki lecture. When the reflection of the sun falls on water, it may be agitated by the waves or made ugly due to the dirt in water. People may throw stones or trash on the reflection. Some people may stop and admire it. If the reflection identifies with itself, it gets affected by all the agitation, praise, trash, etc. If, however, it knows it is a reflection of the sun.. it actually is the sun and is just playing in the water, it can play all day long without getting impacted by anything.

I am slowly getting to the stage where I am able to avoid agitation or if agitated due to habit, recover immediately. However, I am still unable to enjoy the game.. I feel at peace but don't feel joyful. How and when does that happen?

Pranams
Deepa




Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2012, 05:19:07 AM »
Dear Deepa Ji,

the example you have quoted is apt, yes, the agitation in the waters does not contaminate the reflecting Sun upon it. whenever there is forgetfulness, there is samsara, and when there is awareness, there is ananda.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Secret of constant joy
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2012, 05:20:28 AM »
A Zen Master was asked, "How do you live? What is the secret of your constant joy?"

He said, "Not much of a secret, when I feel hungry I eat and when I feel tired I sleep."

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 05:25:26 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2012, 01:34:25 PM »
Quote
when I am hungry and dont get to eat, I do not eat!
when I am sleepy but have to do something, I do it!
The body does not cry, mind does not fight
and I take what comes and remain satisfied.

Agree all except second sentence :) . "Have to do something" can create issues. A jnani does not "have to do something". :)
Salutations to Bhagawan

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43530
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2012, 03:46:24 PM »
Dear Tushnim Asanam

Doing cannot leave us unless we leave this world as unreal. Sri Bhagavan says only when lokavichram goes, Atmavicharam cannot
be done successfully,.

Arunachala Siva,.

sanjaya_ganesh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2012, 05:17:13 PM »
Quote
For example I have to do my duty in office

Fine. The problem is the one prefix here "MY" duty.

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43530
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »
Dear Tushnim

Doing is not a problem Sri Bhagavan did a lot of kitchen work after His Self realization in the Asramam.
'Doership', enjoyership, I am the doers; I am the enjoyer, is the problem/ The eradication of doership and
enjoyership should be cultivated by constant practice.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43530
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2012, 07:45:28 PM »
Dear Tushnim,

Doership and enjoyership go away once a person acquires nishkamya karma, i.e. when one with dispassion  removes the ego
element out it. Once Sri Bhagavan was strolling on the Hill,. He took a branch of a tree that has fallen from the tree, cut it into
proper size. He polished it with herbal leaves that were available around. Soon a nice stick came into shape. Suddenly a cowherd
came on His way and asked: Swami, I have lost my driving stick for the animals. Did you find it? Sri Bhagavan replied: No, I did
not find it. But you can have this as your driving stick. The cowherd boy was happy and thankful.  A devotee who was walking
with Him had just then asked: What is nishkamya karma? Sri Bhagavan had answered without  any theoretical explanation!


Arunachala Siva.

sanjaya_ganesh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2012, 08:53:05 PM »
Subramanian sir has already nicely explained what I meant by "my" in my duty being the problem. Thanks, sir
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
doership, enjoyership, nishkamya karma
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2012, 12:24:35 PM »
We should cease from interpreting these terms such as doership, enjoyership, nishkamya karma etc.. Mechanically and literally. One should discern and strive to imbibe the true spirit.

The essential nature of a human being is not complete without these special features, of being able to DO, of being able to ENJOY. A Human Being in endowed and blessed with intelligence and discrimination to chose between the right and wrong, the true and the false.
When we talk of non-doership, non-enjoyership, desireless-karma and all, what are we aspiring to be? Is this evolution? We need not be even born at all for this! What is a jnani without these special blessings? They say, Jnani is not the body, and body is not the Jnani, yes, it is all true, but we are taking these thoughts over the boundary in to some dry imaginations.

Desire, desire well, Do, do well, Act, act well. Experience, feel the pains and pleasures of the life, it is not great to be like a stone, when somebody out there, loved or anybody is struggling in pain! Oh, yes, Krishna says, i should be same in joy and sorrow, i should be the same, i should not cry when i feel sorrow and i should not be over joyous when i am happy, such interpretations are really disease, i would say.

Share the burden and joy of others; it is not spirituality to run away from these, to become somebody who is unmoved when sorrow and joy befalls. Have empathy, instead of sympathy.

True spirituality is to move on, not remain stuck in memories. Not delving in past and future. True import ought to be discerned. Otherwise, spirituality will become a neurotic disorder.

Nishkamya karma, work without desire, Non Doership, Enjoyership - all these terms are abused so badly and understood so badly that really wrecks one’s life.
I should work without desire, i should not expect the fruits of my actions, and i should work? What kind of evolution are we talking about? We are bogged by dogmatic understanding. We ought to live with full spirit, bloom like a flower full of life and colour.

Suppose, you studied very hard and yet you got 20 marks less than what you expected, then Krishna says, work without desire, accept what you get, that doesn't mean, you do not sit quiet, go for a revaluation, try all your options, if you are not happy and if you get more marks by it, good, if not, move on. If you are already ok, without even re evaluation, then it is fine and good, it may be so, you might get 20 marks after reevaluation, but when you are already content and ok, what matters?

And isn't it common sense to not brood over your efforts later when we don't get that 20 marks as we expected? Even after re evaluation, i should have done like that i should have done like this, and showing our frustrations upon others, being gloomy, etc... All these only mean not taking doership. These aftermath, we should be cool, Its ok attitude, move on, not make things bigger than what they really are. Ok, i have got less than what i expected. May be, next time, i can work better, we ought to pacify ourselves and move on.

Almost all sages, say, keep away from lust and money. Does it mean, everybody should stop stay away from them literally? Keep away from them simply because they say so? We should discern, i believe, earning lots of money is not bad, but we have to see that we are not behind it, it should be behind us, when you see somebody struggling, you should have the heart to share your wealth with such ones. The same applies with women as well. Some people are naturally blessed to not get married, and hence they are by default free from lust, but others, should not imitate, oh, he is spiritual and not married, i should also be like that, i should not get married, this will result negatively, one may keep thinking about women in his mind, while externally he will remain unmarried, instead, he may get married. Constantly thinking only about money and woman, to the extent that it camouflages ones real duty, is what is condemned.

Even if we have some bad quality, each one knows, one should be in control of it, that is, that should not lead you, you should be in a position to tame yourself in situations. Let the desries work themselves out. Do not force onto yourselves Desirelessness. Having Desires is not Less Spiritual than having no Desires. Even the so called Desireless ones also have small desires, those are joys of life, blessings of having a human body. Enjoy this body, do not condemn it. This body is a great boon! Use it well! live your life. fully. This is my discernment.
some musings...

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: my musings
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2012, 02:14:42 PM »
Quote
Desire, desire well, Do, do well, Act, act well. Experience, feel the pains and pleasures of the life, it is not great to be like a stone, when somebody out there, loved or anybody is struggling in pain! Oh, yes, Krishna says, i should be same in joy and sorrow, i should be the same, i should not cry when i feel sorrow and i should not be over joyous when i am happy, such interpretations are really disease, i would say.

I share these thoughts. I have tried to do so but this just made me feel like I am trying be cold-hearted. Somebody I love dies and I say to myself:"O, never mind. He/she is just the mind, unreal and so on." Such cold reasoning makes me feel really bad. Why should I reason this way when my heart is crying and feel really, really sad and regretting that this person has died? Why am I doing it? To train be more spiritual? To show others "You see, I am strong!"? If it is so then what I am doing is just feeding my ego. When others cry for something or somebody and I feel like them I say "Don't cry" and even I shout at them to be stronger and not to act like a child. But why am I doing that? Isn't that to prove myself how strong I am, knowing how weak I am really? Even Lord Jesus has cried for Lazarus although He has known that Lazarus will be alive again. Why? Only He knows how many times He has cried for Israelites and their crimes and cold-heartedness. Why? Lord Ramana has cried in many occasions when His followers were crying in front of Him? Why? What do we need - 'religion of heart' or 'religion of mind'?
Quote

Nishkamya karma, work without desire, Non Doership, Enjoyership - all these terms are abused so badly and understood so badly that really wrecks one’s life.
I should work without desire, i should not expect the fruits of my actions, and i should work? What kind of evolution are we talking about? We are bogged by dogmatic understanding. We ought to live with full spirit, bloom like a flower full of life and colour.

What that means? How could I do something without desire? It is impossible. Even doing thing for God I do it just to make myself happy. Isn't that so? No matter why - may be because I hope for paradise or liberation or worldly things, no matter. The real meaning of non-doership and non-enjoyership is just to be happy with whatever comes. But isn't that enjoyership also? So the only way to do so is to just be. But how can I just be when I do my duty for family or society and again the question why am I doing it? If we discern carefully we will realize that we are doing it for our own sake, for our own happiness. We make others happy just because this makes us happy. How could we escape this endless cycle? We cannot. Only God can by His Grace. True surrender is not possible by just we wanting it. Everything begins with desire, continue with desire and finally if God choses and by His Grace the ego melts and what remains is God consciousness.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2012, 04:20:11 PM »
It is not a weakness to cry, we are brainwashed since long to hide our feelings, this is the root reasons for the majority of diseases.

What i discerned is that, Nishkamya Karma  results when -

You are not in any race in life. For when we are in some race, it gives rise to greed, hate and so on and we tend to accumulate new karmas, more than what we can handle.

You do not believe that there is some other bliss existing other than the bliss you experiecne right here, within you, in what you do, in your very daily life. The bliss or enjoyment, (call what we may) derived out of doing a work or a duty well done is the same bliss of the Self. When you believe, the bliss or joy you experience is less, then you look for more bliss, some where else, and go behind a goal that doesn't really exist anywhere but oneself.

Not regarding ones station in life as inferior to spiritual scale. One is not superior than the other.

Do not live for others, live of self. Because, when you truly live for yourself, true to your principles and values, you will ever be happy and you will be a source of light and strength to people around you. All will be happy.

It is not sin to enjoy, be happy, experience joy, all forms of joy from what we call the worldly things. Things become "worldly" only when we live contrary to the points discerned as above.

Life is not complicated, if we have courage to live it, the way it is to be lived.

Lastly, do not ever judge yourself or anybody. learn from your mistakes, strive to better. Effort itself is Grace. The more we strive sincerely, the sincere efforts itself is Grace.

Then, who cares, if it is lived Nishkamya, leave it for others to judge, what matters when you are contented? if they say, you are Self realised, let it be, if they say, you are not, let it be.

Shanti is Self.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:23:04 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2012, 05:43:54 PM »
"When you believe, the bliss or joy you experience is less, then you look for more bliss, some where else, and go behind a goal that doesn't really exist anywhere but oneself."

is this no so sir? if indeed there is no "more" joy than this, why would anyone desire at all ? that there is desire means we perceive that there is more joy in other things, isnt it sir?

WRT to the above discernment as expressed in my post, there is nothing wrong in desiring to experience joy in other things because, such a one will know, it is the same joy being experiened in another thing. Keep desiring, live your life well.

You may eat different sweets, but in the end, it is sweetness that you experience in various forms, in various flavors.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2012, 06:06:02 PM »
sir if an object can make me happier and I cannot get that object how can disappointment be avoided ?

If you don't get something you desire, then you have to work out your obstinacy. you get what you sow. learn from your mistakes and better yourself.

Your answer is already answered in my posts, request you to kindly go through it deeply.

Quote
"You are not in any race in life. For when we are in some race, it gives rise to greed, hate and so on and we tend to accumulate new karmas, more than what we can handle."

"Suppose, you studied very hard and yet you got 20 marks less than what you expected, then Krishna says, work without desire, accept what you get, that doesn't mean, you do not sit quiet, go for a revaluation, try all your options, if you are not happy and if you get more marks by it, good, if not, move on. If you are already ok, without even re evaluation, then it is fine and good, it may be so, you might get 20 marks after reevaluation, but when you are already content and ok, what matters?

And isn't it common sense to not brood over your efforts later when we don't get that 20 marks as we expected? Even after re evaluation, i should have done like that i should have done like this, and showing our frustrations upon others, being gloomy, etc... All these only mean not taking doership. These aftermath, we should be cool, Its ok attitude, move on, not make things bigger than what they really are. Ok, i have got less than what i expected. May be, next time, i can work better, we ought to pacify ourselves and move on."

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 06:07:57 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2012, 06:25:34 PM »
There is no ready made quick-fix solution. The answer to your questions lie within yourself. You have to sit and look at your self and the problem at your hand and discern yourself honestly, and arrive at peace.

One thing you have to remember when you sit to sort yourself out are the 3 important points give below:

In contemplation or reasoning, there are 3 aspects,

  • Kutarka - means illogical, where the intention is not right. Logic is applied here with the sole purpose of finding fault. One knows deep inside that it is not right, but still, logically you prove that it is right.
  • Vitarka - Vitarka is logic that cannot be reversed. It is asking questions to which there are no evident answers....Who am I? Where am I? What do I really want? Vitarka reasoning always looks to the lighter side, the positive side, optimistic side
  • Tarka - is sequential logical understanding, effort made in order to genuinely discern the truth

It is how you take your self upwards. It all rests in your hands. There are loads of spiritual book, and guidance of many Sages to grace you. It is all in your hands. The extant of your effort decides the result you are looking for.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta