Author Topic: my musings  (Read 116803 times)

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2012, 12:16:09 PM »
Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna which is relevant to what we have been discussing-Namely Suffering in this world,compassion and God.I have posted this in the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna Thread and I am posting it here as well:
Why so much suffering in God's creation?
The Master explained the different kinds of samadhi to the devotees. The conversation then
turned to the joy and suffering of life. Why did God create so much suffering?

M: "Once Vidyasagar said in a mood of pique: 'What is the use of calling on God? Just
think of this incident: At one time Chenghiz Khan plundered a country and imprisoned
many people. The number of prisoners rose to about a hundred thousand. The commander
of his army said to him: "Your Majesty, who will feed them? It is risky to keep them with
us. It will be equally dangerous to release them. What shall I do?" Chenghiz Khan said:
"That's true. What can be done? Well, have them killed." The order was accordingly given
to cut them to pieces. Now, God saw this slaughter, didn't He? But He didn't stop it in any
way. Therefore I don't need God, whether He exists or not. I don't derive any good from
Him.'"

MASTER: "Is it possible to understand God's action and His motive? He creates, He
preserves, and He destroys. Can we ever understand why He destroys? I say to the Divine
Mother: 'O Mother, I do not need to understand. Please give me love for Thy Lotus Feet.'
The aim of human life is to attain bhakti. As for other things, the Mother knows best. I have
come to the garden to eat mangoes. What is the use of my calculating the number of trees,
branches, and leaves? I only eat the mangoes; I don't need to know the number of trees and
leaves."


Baburam, M., and Ramdayal slept that night on the floor of the Master's room.
It was an early hour of the morning, about two or three o'clock. The room was dark. Sri
Ramakrishna was seated on his bed and now and then conversed with the devotees.

Compassion and attachment
MASTER: "Remember that daya, compassion, and maya, attachment, are two different
things. Attachment means the feeling of 'my-ness' toward one's relatives. It is the love one
feels for one's parents, one's brother, one's sister, one's wife and children. Compassion is the
love one feels for all beings of the world. It is an attitude of equality. If you see anywhere
an instance of compassion, as in Vidyasagar, know that it is due to the grace of God.
Through compassion one serves all beings
. Maya also comes from God. Through maya
God makes one serve one's relatives. But one thing should be remembered: maya keeps us
in ignorance and entangles us in the world, whereas daya makes our hearts pure and
gradually unties our bonds
."

Sri Ramakrishna had this supreme gift of getting to the essence of the matter and presenting it in a way that can be translated into sadhana.He never bothered to get into the theoretical aspects which he called 'counting the leaves'.
Nagaraj here,in his musings, has been consistently emphasizing the compassion aspect.
As regards what Sri Bhagavan was doing during the world war,how is one to know?For this:
1.We need to know who Sri Bhagavan is!Is he limited to the Body that one saw in TiruvannAmalai?
2.Is his doing limited to what his Body was doing(may be reclining in that sofa!)or the words that he uttered or did not utter then?
To all these sort of questions,Sri Bhagavan would perhaps have said:'Find out to whom these questions arise'.In this way Sri Bhagavan is quite like Sri Ramakrishna,redirecting the mind of the seeker to the Essence,the 'Mango Fruit'.
Talking about 'Mango Fruit'(கைத்தல நிறை கனி)am reminded of how Lord vinAyaka with his lightning quick astuteness won the Game over his brother Lord Subhramanya and claimed the Prize (Mango Fruit) by going around pArvathi parameswar;Lord subhramanya ,although he travelled on a peacock to go round the world(trying to understand it-this is what it means)could not make it!
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #106 on: September 30, 2012, 12:29:18 PM »
sanjaya,
The Excerpt from Swami Ramatirtha is wonderful .I have seen a similiar explanation by KAnchi mahAswAmi.
This is what the Lord Sri Krishna says in a different way in the Gita ,chapter2 verse 19:"Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for the self slays not nor is slain."
While the jnAni is beyond conflict of happiness and sorrow,and Life and Death have lost its significance for him,yet as the Lord Sri Krishna says elsewhere in the Gita,the Great ones ,to set an example to others are always involved in doing Good works.
For the sadhaka caught up in duality,compassion,mitigation of the sufferings of others go a long way in his self development and Realization.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2012, 01:12:26 PM »
Dear Sanjay garu, Sri Ravi, friends,

with additional inputs by Sri Ravi, in his response to Swami Rama's post, yes, the Atma is neither a slayer or a slain.

The question is if we can sit in this abidance, without it troubling us, as expressed by DV Gundappa, in his Kagga (thread)

Everybody is a Saint, Everybody a Preacher,
Till, Life's tests comes and stands in front,
Inner secrets of nature (vasanas) then rise from the bottom
God is the only refuge then - Mankuthimma

This is the test, if we are able to live upto the knowledge that atma is neither a slayer or a slain in real, else, at least one must trust the ways of God which is mysterious and surrender to His will. I have conversed with others outside, somewhere they have this feeling that Bhakti is inferior to jnana, and they remain stuck in this knowledge and suffer with inner conflict, being unable to digest the truth as knowledge or are they even able to surrender to a Higher power, which seems inferior as they feel, there is no Higher power than the Self. They may not talk about it openly, as they themselves are not aware of it yet but the problem arises only when it is neither of the above, that is Samsara. That is Pain, That is agony of being unable to either abide in perfect knowledge or surrender to the Higher power. They also feel, that Bhakti and Jnana are conrary to each other, and Both can't co exist. Sometimes it would appear to me that Bhagavan was actually a great Bhakta and Ramakrishnar as a great Jnani. But the popular feel is the opposite! What can be said? they are both Jnani and Bhakta.

Either way, be it Jnana or Bhakti, Surrender is inevitable, the death of ego is inevitable.

Sri Ravi, wonderful post about, Master's word are so lucid, and clear.

Yes, I say to the Divine Mother: 'O Mother, I do not need to understand. Please give me love for Thy Lotus Feet.' The aim of human life is to attain bhakti. As for other things, the Mother knows best."

« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 01:17:06 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #108 on: September 30, 2012, 01:26:18 PM »
Nagaraj,
"I have conversed with others outside, somewhere they have this feeling that Bhakti is inferior to jnana, and they remain stuck in this knowledge and suffer with inner conflict, being unable to digest the truth as knowledge or are they even able to surrender to a Higher power, which seems inferior as they feel, there is no Higher power than the Self"

I just cannot agree more!This is something that I have witnessed over so many years.This is just a form of sophistry and is a great obstacle in Sadhana.I often get the impression that a common man in the street who salutes a piLLaiyAr statue in a way side  temple,as he walks past, is much,much more better off than these high brow jignAsus!
Sri Ramakrishna has said the same thing what DV Gundappa has expressed:
"The singing parrot, when at
ease, repeats the holy names of Radha and Krishna, but when it is seized by a cat it utters
its own natural sound; it squawks, 'Kaa! Kaa!'"

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2012, 01:38:57 PM »
Friends,
I am sharing this, posted earlier in David's blog:
This is what the Great Grandma of a Sage Avvayyar says:

சித்திரமும் கைப்பழக்கம் செந்தமிழும் நாப்பழக்கம்
வைத்ததொரு கல்வி மனப்பழக்கம் நித்தம்
நடையும் நடைப்பழக்கம் நட்பும் தயையும்
கொடையும் பிறவிக் குணம்


Chithiramum Kai Pazhakkam Senthamizhum Naapazhakkam
Vaithadhor Kalviyum Manappazhakkam Niththam
Nadaiyum Nadaipazhakkam Natpum Dhayaiyum
Kodaiyum Piravi Gunam



meaning, The finest art is the practice of the hand; The eloquence in Tamil literature is the practice of the tongue; The greatness of learning is the practice of the mind; The nobility of behaviour is by the practice of being nobly behaved. The ones that are inborn are - friendly attitude,Compassion and Benevolence.

The More we express these inborn qualities,the more and more they manifest and take us to the very source of these qualities,the Self.

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43550
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #110 on: September 30, 2012, 02:22:07 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Sri Bhagavan said: Bhakti is Jnana Mata. Both come by constant practice. When Sri Arunachala Stuti Panchakam was written,
Sri Bhagavn was already self realized. Still He poured Bhakti into those wonderful poems.

Arunachala Siva.













Jewell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6087
  • Love,always love and only love
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #111 on: September 30, 2012, 03:11:10 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,dear Sri Ravi, I agree with those views,about commpasion,love and tolerance for everything and everyone is one noble and ultimate goal. Absolutelly! I only dont agree that is Must for realisation,coz many people develop that kind of qualities in the way. I see many people from my suroundings,and i see that you cant force anything,and dont need to,on them. That is Ultimate goal,but it cant be must. Ultimate goal is freedom to,and freedom to let everyone chose his way of worship,path,is essence of freedom at all. Dear Nagaraj,i didnt think that I should be respected,but All people,And All Great Souls. I am not important. Also,commpasion,the real one,must be True,not pretension. Because,i see many people,everywhere talk about that,and cant do one simple thing,and that is to be commpationate to people around them. It is something beautiful,to be commpationate,but it must be EVERY DAY living,and not Only Idea. We cannot ask for it,but to initiate that trough exsample. I am talking about that only.

Jewell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6087
  • Love,always love and only love
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2012, 03:19:13 PM »
All that,because,Freedom dont have the price. We can want that people should be kind,and good and tolerant,but we cannot Ask for it like must. I only wanted to stress that,and that it should be Real and True,not pretension,and not with force. That is my thinking. Coz every must,goes in other direction. Dear Nagaraj,You didnt even said that,but i felt i need to add one more aspect in. So,in essence,i agree with your views,but think it is not whole Truth.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 03:21:50 PM by Jewell »

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43550
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2012, 03:39:10 PM »
Dear Jewell,

Once V. Ganesan the eldest son of Sri Venkataraman, former President of Sri Ramanasramam, was a young boy of one year,
he used to come to the Hall with his parents.  As soon as left on the floor, he used to walk wobbling and try to climb the sofa
on which Sri Bhagavan was sitting. The attendants used to lift him and put him back. One day, Sri Bhagavan observed this and told
the attendants not to disturb the young boy. With great determination, the boy climbed the sofa and sat on the lap of Sri Bhagavan
with a smile!! 

Srii Bhagavan told the devotees: See what makes a human being to achieve the goal? One is determination about the goal  regardless
of obstacles. Two, perseverance against great odds. This truth also holds good for self surrender and self inquiry. Give freedom to
people and curtail them only when they go astray. Otherwise don't obstruct the path!

Arunachala Siva.             

Jewell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6087
  • Love,always love and only love
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2012, 04:16:29 PM »
Dear Sri Subramanian,sir, I agree completely!!! Dear friends,just one thought more on this. I am trying only to give realistic view on Sanatana Dharma,and right living. That is Beautiful approach,it is Good ideal,but not so applyiable in reality. If it can be,then every religion would make people and the world,the perfect by now. It is good,like,this is good,this is not,more for "ordinary" people,to make them more considerate,but for someone who is in search for truth,there is something more then only that. It cant be forced,and it dont need to be. And it is not necesary for realisation to serve,or be missionare. We can serve in many ways,and the reason behind that must be noble,true,not only act. Just my thoughts.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2012, 04:34:24 PM »
jewell,
"Also,compassion,the real one,must be True,not pretension"
Everything, if it is not genuine,is of no use.Truthfulness is the Basic Requirement.If compassion is not present,one has to be aware of it!This very awareness will help one find it.It is very important to discover this in oneself and express it.The more and more one expresses this,the more spontaneous and natural it becomes.If there is one genuine person,that will inspire others to follow suit and it can spread to the neighbourhood as well.The more we cherish a quality and live it,the more it will grow.
The other thing that I would add is that compassion cannot be equated to 'Being nice and Sweet'.Compassion can manifest as sternness-in disciplining those we love.
It is very important to be truthful and if necessary,call a spade a spade,and not flinch.This may hurt!and this hurt is also a blessing.He who is a seeker of Truth should be able to handle this chastising as well,on his part if he or she happens to be at the receiving end!Those who follow the path of jnAna or self-enquiry has to find this equanimity to take praise and Blame,and take it as an opportunity to introspect when they receive such a beating!If they wince or demurr,it is clear they are not yet ready.It means that he does not have titiksha(enduring the pairs of opposites like pleasure &pain,Praise & Blame).
Even here in this forum,if we say something Strongly,it has its ripples!Then follows a series of explanations ,apologies,not wanting to hurt even unintentionally,etc!Or there is a Recoil,that one wants to withdraw,or goes into one's shell,etc.
For a seeker,if he or she is not in a position to handle some uncomfortable moments in a forum,how does such a one hope to eliminate his 'ego' sense?what is the 'self-enquiry' such a one is doing,other than possibly imagining that 'Ego' is not there,while all along it is only that which is surviving!
When one has compassion,one will not feel the hurt.
Compassion is not for preaching or demonstrate as some outward standard of behaviour.It is the indication that we are getting rid of the boundary of 'I' and 'mine' by expanding it beyond our kith and kin.This happens as we deepen our sadhana.It is absolutely necessary to see that we grow in compassion.otherwise,and it is for everyone of us to see whether it is there in us or not.It is not to see outside and count- 'X' has it ,'Y' does not have it and 'Z' is developing it,etc.

Namaskar.

Jewell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6087
  • Love,always love and only love
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #116 on: September 30, 2012, 05:44:29 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi, I cannot help to notice,sir,that You dont understand what i want to convey. Your thinking is that i am saying all this because of my own life and living. It is not so! It is not subjective at all! And i believe that prase and blame You,sir should be able to accept more,than i do. But i dont see that. I can accept autority,but it must be same for everyone,not with like or dislake. You cannot ask me to trust your views blindly. It is not right. How can i trust You sir? I dont know anything about You,and how can i take those words like ultimate truth? It is not right for me.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Selected quotes from Ramana Gita
« Reply #117 on: September 30, 2012, 06:47:59 PM »
Some selected quotes from Sri Ramana Gita:

  • Let knowledge be guessed by the sign of equality to all beings.
  • ... just as the limb gives assistance to the body, likewise the member of the community helps the community and reigns supreme.
  • It is said that a good brotherly feeling with a sense of equality is the supreme goal to be reached collectively by all members of the community.
  • By happy fraternity amongst themselves, the embodied beings get the supreme peace. Then all this earth shines like one house. When the men, the embodied beings treat each other with equal respect and have good brotherly feelings amongst themselves, great peace and harmony abound. Then all this earth shines like one house. The whole world shines like the one dwelling house of the entire human family.
  • [A member of the community] should conduct himself always by word, mind and body in such a fashion that it results in help to the society. He should also make his own men understand this.
  • Having set one's family in consonance with the community, he should make his family prosperous to ensure the prosperity of the community.
  • Peace is for the purification of one's mind. Power is for the growth of the community. Having established the community with power, one should then establish supreme peace.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #118 on: September 30, 2012, 08:55:17 PM »
Jewell,
"How can i trust You sir? I dont know anything about You,and how can i take those words like ultimate truth? It is not right for me"
 Please do not trust me.I have never asked you to!Did I?I have just said that we need to examine ourselves and not look outside to find what compassion is.
I give the words of Great ones and rarely use my views,as I understand that will be just a babble.

"And i believe that prase and blame You,sir should be able to accept more,than i do. But i dont see that"

Yes,Please give me all the brickbats from Captain Haddock'(Tintin). :)

Please see the reaction !One time it is 'Dear,Dear Ravi' and another time it is 'Stranger Ravi,not worth Trusting'!This is how the mind oscillates. :)

This is how human relationships are!This is the reason why the Great ones teach us to look behind this facade,even if it be our spouse,child and trust in God only.It is God alone who is in everyone and it is this aspect that we should be serving, be it our spouse,Children,Friends,or anyone else.If we have this attitude,nothing will hurt us.

Wishing you the Very Best.

Namaskar.




Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: my musings
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2012, 09:40:55 PM »
Jewell/Friends,
To lighten things up,here is a humorous yet instructive story that Sri Ramakrishna narrates in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Unreality of all worldly relationships

"A guru said to his disciple: 'The world is illusory. Come away with me.' 'But, revered sir,'
said the disciple, 'my people at home-my father, my mother, my wife-love me so much.
How can I give them up?' The guru said: No doubt you now have this feeling of "I" and
"mine" and say that they love you; but this is all an illusion of your mind.
I shall teach you
a trick, and you will know whether they love you truly or not.' Saying this, the teacher gave
the disciple a pill and said to him: 'Swallow this at home. You will appear to be a corpse,
but you will not lose consciousness. You will see everything and hear everything. Then I
shall come to your house and gradually you will regain your normal state.'

"The disciple followed the teacher's instructions and lay on his bed like a dead person: The
house was filled with loud wailing. His mother, his wife, and the others lay on the ground
weeping bitterly. Just then a brahmin entered the house and said to them, 'What is the
matter with you?' 'This boy is dead', they replied. The brahmin felt his pulse and said: 'How
is that? No, he is not dead. I have a medicine for him that will cure him completely.' The
joy of the relatives was unbounded; it seemed to them that heaven itself had come down
into their house. 'But', said the brahmin, 'I must tell you something else. Another person
must take some of this medicine first and then the boy must swallow the rest. But the other
person will die. I see he has so many dear relatives here; one of them will certainly agree to
take the medicine. I see his wife and mother crying bitterly. Surely they will not hesitate to
take it.'
"At once the weeping stopped and all sat quiet. The mother said: 'Well, this is a big family.
Suppose I die; then who will look after the family?' She fell into a reflective mood. The
wife, who had been crying a minute before and bemoaning her ill luck, said: 'Well, he has
gone the way of mortals. I have these two or three young children. Who will look after
them if I die?'
"The disciple saw everything and heard everything. He stood up at once and said to the
teacher: 'Let us go, revered sir. I will follow you.' (All laugh.)

"Another disciple said to his teacher: 'Revered sir, my wife takes great care of me. It is for
her sake that I cannot give up the world.' The disciple practised hathayoga. The teacher
taught him, too, a trick to test his wife's love. One day there was a great wailing in his
house. The neighbours came running and saw the hathayogi seated in a posture, his limbs
paralysed and distorted. They thought he was dead. His wife fell on the ground, weeping
piteously: 'Oh, what has befallen me? How have you provided for our future? Oh, friends, I
never dreamt I should meet such a fate!'
"In the mean time the relatives and friends had brought a cot to take the corpse out. But
suddenly a difficulty arose as they started to move it. Since the body was twisted and stiff,
it could not be taken out through the door. A neighbour quickly brought an axe and began
to chop away the door-frame. The wife was crying bitterly, when she heard the sound of the
axe. She ran to the door. 'What are you doing, friends?' she asked, still weeping. The
neighbour said, 'We can't take the body out; so we are chopping away the door-frame.'

" 'Please', said the wife, 'don't do any such thing. I am a widow now; I have no one to look
after me. I have to bring up these young children. If you destroy this door, I shall not be
able to replace it. Friends, death is inevitable for all, and my husband cannot be called back
to life. You had better cut his limbs.' The hathayogi at once stood up. The effect of the
medicine had worn off. He said to his wife: ' You evil one! You want to cut off my hands
and feet, do you?' So saying, he renounced home and followed his teacher. (All laugh.)

Human Relations are like this.Our relationship with God alone is lasting.He alone is our Mother,Father,Friend,self.
Namaskar.