Author Topic: Near death experience  (Read 3298 times)

Hari

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Near death experience
« on: August 04, 2012, 09:21:06 PM »
I still don't know Advaita and Bhagavan's view of so called experiences after the death of the body. The Books say different things about that. It NDE as real as this world and is a fact for every 'soul' or this is just one possibility after death? Many Hindu and Buddhistic, as well many, many other cultures speak very often for such kind of experiences and they all describe very similar, almost identical things - the Light, tunnel, the Spiritual Guide and so on. How to understand all this?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 11:58:38 AM »
Dear ramana,

Sri Bhagavan says death of 'I' of ego is death or liberation. In Talks No. 238, He says to a question, 'What happens to the man after
death?:
'Engage yourself in the living present. The future will take care of itself...... What is birth? Is it of the 'I' thought or the body?
Is 'I' separate from the body or identical with it? How did this 'I' thought  arise?  Is 'I' thought you nature, or is anything else
of your nature?

The state before creation and the process of creation are dealt with in the scriptures in order that you may know the present.
Because you say, you are born therefore they say, yes, and add that God created you.

For a conventional answer, you can see Talks No. 276:

'Some are born immediately after, others after some lapse of time, a few are not reborn on this earth, but eventually get salvation
in some higher regions, and a very few get absolved here and now."   

As regards NDE, again conventionally, one is said to move upwards, in a strange state, but due to samskaras and vasanas
the jive comes back and occupy the same body.

Samskaras and vasanas decide our birth and death. The destruction of vasanas and samskaras is liberation. It may be here
and now or at the time of death.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 06:26:59 PM »
Dear ramana,

See this conversation between Evans-Wentz and Sri Bhagavan in Talks No. 17.

E: God being immanent in all, one should not take life of any kind. Is society right in taking the life of a murderer? Can the
State do so either? The Christian countries begin to think that it is wrong to do so.

Maharshi: What is that prompted the murderer to commit the crime in the first place? The same Power awards him punishment.
Society or the State is only a tool in the hands of that Power. You speak of one life taken away. But what about innumerable
lives lost in wars?

E: Quite so. Loss of lives is wrong anyway. Are we justified?

Maharshi: For a realized person, the one who remains ever in the Self, the loss of one or several or all lives in the world or in all
the three worlds make no difference. Even if he happens to destroy them call, no sin can touch such a pure soul. Then Maharshi
quoted the Gita, Chapter 18, Verse 17: -- 'He who is free from the notion of ego, whose intellect is unattached, though he annihilates
all the worlds, he slayeth not, nor is he bound by the results of his actions."

E: Do not such actions affect the person in after births?

Maharshi: Are you born now? Why do you think of other births? The fact there is neither birth nor death. Let him who is born
think of death and palliatives therefore.

Arunachala Siva. 

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 10:01:38 AM »
Quote
brahma satyam jaganmithyaa jeevo brahmaiva naaparah
anena vedyam tat sat saastram iti vedaantadindimah

True - I have spent months trying to find logical answers, Ramana Ji. But I come back to the truth like what is explained here by Acharya Swamigal. In front of this truth, do questions like these exist? My "interest" in answers to these questions vanish when I see the mighty truth as above by Acharya Swamigal. Simply lose interest in answers to these is the only solution. I dont think anyone can succeed in giving answers to what you "see" or experience in Mithya.

Purely a hunble personal opinion, Ramana Ji. Many may or may not agree. But this is what I find happening personally trying to find "logical" answers - you lose interest in the need for answers to these questions except fondling the truth always.

-Sanjay.
Salutations to Bhagawan

Hari

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 12:07:20 PM »
I have found this information in Internet - http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_death.asp.

Dear Ganesh, yes, I agree but must all these experiences be considered as more unreal than waking state we are now? Or that are they less improbable than awaking after dream or dreaming after go sleeping? What I can conclude as whole is that for Hinduism (all schools) death can be experienced like a sleep state - with "dreams" and dreamless sleep. What do you think?
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sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 12:16:00 PM »
Dear Ramana Ji

I understand what you are saying. I am not sure - but I recall a nice statement that Nochur Ji says in one of his talks. Stop worrying about death, which is just a state change like your infant to toddler to teen to adult. He says you never knew when these state changes happened and similarly, you will never know when death happens. I have no idea - as it is impossible to find someone who has actually gone through this and came back to explain (not the 100s of youtube videos from westerns who claim near death experience :)). Yes - it may or may not be true - but what is the process / procedure to establish that?

And the link above is Hindu view. I am personally of the opinion that "Hinduism" is Sanatana Dharma "tweaked" to suit the needs of an "established religion". Sanatana Dharma core texts (Upanishads and Brahma Sutra) - do not encourage much of such discussions. And you can see a word occuring maximum in such articles "It is believed that... " :).

But this formal basics of Advaitha Vedanta throws some light - http://www.vedantaadvaita.org/AdvaitaVedanta_2.htm#heading_toc_j_4. I have benefitted a lot from this tutorial sometime back.

-Sanjay.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:27:38 PM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

Hari

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2012, 08:45:44 PM »
So for 'unliberated soul' there is no heaven and hell, astral plane, astral body and so on? Is these places and body real as this world is real now? Whether the current "I"-identification as Subramanian, ramana1359, Ravi, Nagaraj and so on will continue some time in these places or souls have different "I"-identification there (if such places are accepted as existent)?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 01:35:50 PM »
Dear ramana1359,

The Heaven or Hell is NOT THERE for both unliberated and liberated. The unliberated only thinks or believes them to be there.
The liberated has found that these were untrue as a son of barren woman. 

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 01:40:07 PM »
But didn't Bhagavan has said that they are true as much as this world? If it is so then why they would not exist for those for those for whom this world is existent also?
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sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 01:44:56 PM »
Well said, Mr. Subramanian. HEAVEN or HELL is like seeing a mirage of water or fire in a dessert, in other words - as per the popular example from Vedanta. Once you walk around the whole dessert and find that every bit of water and fire you "see" is NOTHING but dessert sand, they dont exist for you anymore. But step behind and you will still "see" them, but by now you know they are nothing but dessert sand. Who can explain this better than Acharya Swamigal in Pratha Smarana Stotram among others?

Yasminidam jagad-ashesham-ashesha-moorthau
Rajvam-bhujangam-iva-prathibhasitham-vai

Sanjay

Salutations to Bhagawan

Subramanian.R

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 01:51:54 PM »
Dear ramana,

Yes. That is what I said. If some people in the world believes that the world is existent, Heaven and Hell are also existent for
them. Because, being only unliberated, they believe in the existence of non existent world. And so with the heaven and hell.

Srj Bhagavan says in Verse 16 of Sad Darsanam:

Without us, there is no time or space. If we are only bodies, we are caught up in time and space. But are we bodies?
Now, then, always, - here, now and everywhere -- we are the same. We exist, timeless and spaceless we.   

This idea is also touched upon in Verse 3 and 4 of Sad Darsanam also.

Arunachala Siva.

ksksat27

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 02:28:35 PM »
But didn't Bhagavan has said that they are true as much as this world? If it is so then why they would not exist for those for those for whom this world is existent also?

Dear Ramana

Actually it does not matter what your intellect believes --  whether hell or heaven exist or state after death in astral planes etc. 

Our intellect may read thousands of nice advaita scritpures and declare by buddhi that everything is unreal.

But for each of us, there is something called  the core of the being which may be translated as ego.  The sum, net,  core substance of our being -- this ego ,  it will experience 'something' always by the power of maya.

For instance a week back,  suddenly I felt pain in chest.  I am taking BP tablets regularly .

That very moment I felt the pain in chest,  my ego started panicking and started imagining many fears.  But the fear subsided immediately but the lesson learnt is that:  ego never changes so easily.    Our net effect of all these sadhana in the barometer of ego is very sublte .  So one will have this restless fear and one will in my opinion thrive well only by his purity and devotion.

Eeach of us has go this inherent value of our ego --  taken from many past lives.  After death or at the moment of death,  after the exam bell rings,  the book of intellectual and reasoning based brain is kept out of exam hall.  Then only the core value of the ego will take over.

This is what I feel intuitively. 

Hari

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 04:09:46 PM »
Quote
Eeach of us has go this inherent value of our ego --  taken from many past lives.  After death or at the moment of death,  after the exam bell rings,  the book of intellectual and reasoning based brain is kept out of exam hall.  Then only the core value of the ego will take over.

Dear Krishna, what do you mean by "the core value of the ego will take over"?

Let say that someone go to Brahmaloka. Can this men/women continue their spiritual sadhana and attain liberation? Can such soul say "Hey, my body is dead and I am in Brahmaloka and must continue what I have begun"? My consern with death is that if it is annihilation of the current "I"-thought (personality) then if a soul loses consciousness it will forget about God, goodness, sadhana and so on. And why it must lose it? Isn't the purpose of life to know yourself? If death is this then it is very big obstacle for realization of the Self and the unreality of the world.
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sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 10:01:40 AM »
Ramana Ji

:) This is the exact question Arjuna asks Krishna in Chapter 6 and extremely well explained by Lord himself. I suggest verse 37 onwards from Chapter 6 where Arjuna asks Bhagawan, what happens if I die without realizing? Will I not foger everything and have to do it all over again. I cannot explain it here as great as what Gita already explains. So I am not trying. Please refer verse 37 onwards where Bhagawan essentially answers that this one knowledge is capable of "transcending" births.

-Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Hari

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Re: Near death experience
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 09:52:52 PM »
Thank you, Sri Sanjaya. Here it is the conversation between Arjuna and the Lord:

Quote
"Arjuna said: O Krishna, what is the destination of the unsuccessful transcendentalist, who in the beginning takes to the process of self-realization with faith but who later desists due to worldly-mindedness and thus does not attain perfection in mysticism?"

"O mighty-armed Krishna, does not such a man, who is bewildered from the path of transcendence, fall away from both spiritual and material success and perish like a riven cloud, with no position in any sphere?"

"This is my doubt, O Krishna, and I ask You to dispel it completely. But for You, no one is to be found who can destroy this doubt."

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Son of Pritha, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil."

"The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy."

"Or [if unsuccessful after long practice of yoga] he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Certainly, such a birth is rare in this world."

"By virtue of the divine consciousness of his previous life, he automatically becomes attracted to the yogic principles—even without seeking them. Such an inquisitive transcendentalist stands always above the ritualistic principles of the scriptures."

"And when the yogi engages himself with sincere endeavor in making further progress, being washed of all contaminations, then ultimately, achieving perfection after many, many births of practice, he attains the supreme goal."

But one of my questions was - can a person attain liberation in heaven? And in this heaven does he/she remember (is in full integrity with) his last life in the world?
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