Prarabhda karma and the intervention by Maharshi

[ksksat27]

Because Maharishee was un-comprising in the talks regarding free will and destiny,  there is a notion floating around that Prarabhda karma is left as it is even to Maharshi's close deovtees.

But in my experience,  Ramana Maharshi indeed intervenes in the  already started Prarabhda Karma and that too for a person who has for the first day in his life has known about and sought out Maharishee's help.

Maharshi seems to be very keen and nullify most of the bad effects of Prarabhdha Karma as Shirdi sai baba and other Gurus did.

There is one more equivalent wrong notion I read even in advanced devotees books -- that Ramana Maharshi will so arrange the circumstances of one's already fructifying Prarabhdha Karma in such a way that devotee feels the least effect ,  for example ,  being jobless combined with someone going to higher education or getting some ancestrial properly long pending.

Though I agree to the above and dont reject such possibilities, I still feel that Maharshi Raman also acts in a very direct way in nullifying the  bad effects of Prarabha Karma.  Needless to say,  even in Sanchita and Agamai Karma,  most of them does get burnt by being always aware of Ramana's form or follow his teachings -- whichever way.



So in summary,  anybody having full faith in Bhagavan's intervention for destruction of even Prarabhda Karma will never get disappointed --  Bhagavan has the same power as God to destory all our karma even we are not realized.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

Absolutely TRUE. Once, when Guru has seen, in a disciple, even a minutest desire to surrender to God, Truth, he takes care of him, once when His sight falls on such a disciple, who has cried to Him, in utter helplessness on his part, the Guru's grace begins to work on him in mysterious and unfathomable ways.

He is taking care, Dear i, period.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Subramanian.R]

Sri Bhagavan helped Jagadeeswara Sastri when the latter was critically ill in the hospital. Jagadeeswara Sastri sent a poem
in Sanskrit beseeching Sri Bhagavan to help him for some more years, and as soon as Sri Bhagavan had read the poem,
Sastri began to improve and became totally well in a few days.

There was one boy in Tiruvannamalai and his name was also Ramana. Sri Bhagavan helped him on two occasions. Once,
as a very young child , when he was stung by a snake and he was almost dead, his body becoming blue. Sri Bhagavan came
near him and told him, Ramana, there is nothing wrong with you, you get up. The boy became alright.

Again for the same Ramana, when  he was a young boy, he stepped into Ayyankulam Tank to wash his feet, slipped and got
almost drowned. He did not know swimming. Suddenly some old man appeared and he jumped into the tank and pulled out
the boy. Next morning he came to the Asramam, and Sri Bhagavan smilingly asked Ramana: What Ramana! Were the waters
of Ayyankulam very chill?

Suri Nagamma says that she was cured of her cancer (in the later years, after Sri Bhagavan's Maha Nirvana) due to Sri
Bhagavan's intervention.

Arunachala Siva.     

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Dear All

I agree this is a great topic to discuss - especially glories of Bhagawan is all pervading. However, my only fear is that such a theme will make us approach the Supreme Reality for the sake of curing our Prarabdha Karma, which is not correct, in my opinion. The Supreme knows exactly how much Prarabdha you have, how much you can take, when to get you out of it etc etc. So why worry about these things rather than submitting to it. This is "Dental Meditation" like someone said in forum from Nochur Anna.

-Sanjay

[Subramanian.R]

Dear sanjaya_ganesh,

This is where normal wants and unlimited desires come into picture. It is like the English proverb, "I was yearning for shoes, till
I saw a man who had no legs."

Sri Bhagavan clarifies in Talks:

If one goes on wanting, one's wants cannot be fulfilled. Whereas if one remains desireless anything will be forthcoming. We are
not in the wife, children, profession, etc., But they are in us. They appear and disappear according to one's prarabdha.

The mind remaining still is Samadhi. No matter whether the world is perceived or not.

Environment, time and objects are all in me. How can they be independent of me? They may change, but I remain unchanging
always the same. The objects can be differentiated by means their names and forms, whereas each one's name is only one and
that is "I". Ask anyone, he says "I" and speaks of himself as "I", even if He is Iswara. His name too is "I" only.

So also of locality. As long as I am identified with the body so long as a locality is distinguishable; otherwise not. Am I the body?
Does the body announce itself as "I"?

Clearly all these are in me. All these are wiped out entirely, the residual Peace is "I". This is Samadhi, this is 'I'.

NAm anRi nAL ethu nAdu ethu nAdungAl
NAm udambel nAL nAttuL nAm paduvam - nAm udambo
NAm inRu anRu enRum onRu nAdu ingu angu engum onRAl
NAm uNdu nAL nAdu il nAm.

(Ulladu Narpadu - Verse 16.)

Sri Bhagavan says when the ego is lost all karmas including prarabdha are vanquished. When Dasaratha dies, all his
three wives are widows. How can one alone be a sumangali (wife with husband)?

The prarabdha is likened to an arrow that has left the bow towards the aim. The aim, is say, a cow. Only when the cow
is there, the arrow will pierce it. If the cow itself (mind body complex) is not there, where the arrow will fall? It falls on the
ground, without any effect.

Arunachala Siva.           

[ksksat27]

Dear All

I agree this is a great topic to discuss - especially glories of Bhagawan is all pervading. However, my only fear is that such a theme will make us approach the Supreme Reality for the sake of curing our Prarabdha Karma, which is not correct, in my opinion. The Supreme knows exactly how much Prarabdha you have, how much you can take, when to get you out of it etc etc. So why worry about these things rather than submitting to it. This is "Dental Meditation" like someone said in forum from Nochur Anna.

-Sanjay

Dear Sanjay

If one is naturally able to cultivate ultimate feeling of full sacrifice and submission to Divine will -- there is absolutley no problem.

But for people like me  there is no point in artificially imitating those qualities.

If I want Maharishee's help for a material problem,   I have to cry aloud and ask for help earnestly.  Then Ramana will defnitely intervene.  I should not keep it with myself.

Unwanted extra luxury r replacement of a sadness with happiness --  Maharishee will never do.

But the same time unnecessary torture and suffering --  Ramana Maharishee will definitely intervene and completely change our script to avoid that suffering.  The resultant vacant time ,  we should reciprocate by doing our self enquiry or surrender.

Only thing is we should not be like Sugreeva King --  he had major life threatening situation. He prayed to Lord Rama and Lord Rama helped him. After that event,  he went back to Vanara kingdom and started enjoying in sense pleasures.

Lord Lakshaman severely re-primanded him and any gift given by Lord will never be taken back.  So he was corrected and again he started reciprocating by helping them to find Maa Sita.

We should not commit that mistake --  we should be like Vibheeshana King , always be thankful and always devoted to Lord Ramana Maharishee.

[sanjaya_ganesh]

If one is naturally able to cultivate ultimate feeling of full sacrifice and submission to Divine will -- there is absolutley no problem.

But for people like me  there is no point in artificially imitating those qualities.

Krishna, The problem lies in saying "people like me" - sorry, but I think you are no different from me or anyone here. Thinking that all great things exist - good. But I am not fit for it. That is a wrong approach per me. Then this whole thing becomes just an intellectual exercise. I am sure we are not for that. That is like knowing smoking is bad and saying "I cant stop it".

Let me put it another way. If we believe in Upanishads and great scriptures and Bhagawan etc. why not even initially "artificially imitate" and slowly it becomes natural. Every smoker starts smoking trying to imitate someone (not after experiencing it before hand). And soon it becomes a habit. Wrong example - but then when we can "artificially enjoy" all these lies (non existent Maya), why not at least artifically enjoy the truth to start with ? It will eventually become naturally. Waiting for it to become natural is a strange thing for me. Let it become natural when the Supreme decides it to become natural - but the Supreme will never blame you for artificially enjoying it. If we can artificially enjoy every non existent thing - why not this also? Not for displaying to others - but to teach your own mind.


In other words, if Vedanta is leading us to more worry and not more bliss, we are going in wrong direction. That is the KPI / metric (as they say in my field - Software:)) of progress.

-Sanjay

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Krishnan and sanjaya_ganesh,

That is why there is a difference between natural wants and unlimited desires, as I mentioned in my earlier post today.
Even in natural wants are not fulfilled (like Sri Bhagavan's case, even daily food became a problem and that is why
the sadhus of His group went for bhiksha and He wrote Akshara Mana Malai), it is not wrong to 'cry for it', as Krishnan
said.  What is wrong is crying? Is not the child crying to its mother for milk? But one should not seek to God: "Give me
a Rs 35 crore worth of house like Tendulkar is having!"  Is God only there for such lavish desires to be fulfilled? If still
there is prarabdha for getting a Rs 35 crore house, you will get it. But that is a different issue. In crying, we don't
imitate anyone. Crying is a genuine feeling. One cannot imitate crying. One can imitate laughing. But not crying.
That is why Manikkavachagar says about crying in many places in Tiruvachakam. Sri Ramakrishna also said: When we
are crying for something, why not cry for God? That is the highest crying. Crying to God for God's sake only. His Grace.
His Mercy. Till such time, one can also cry for simple wants in life also.

Arunachala Siva.

[sanjaya_ganesh]

What about "Pareekshana", Subramanian sir? Just a thought. Many people - even in my distant family - keep aloof / away from God saying "He will start testing you when you go too close" and you will get too much Prarabdha Karma. Any thoughts on how to answer them?

-Sanjay

[Subramanian.R]

Dear sanjya_ganesh,

God never tests any living being. All religions extol God as compassion incarnate. But as per Hinduism, it is the law of
karma that operates. (This law is also from God but God does not normally interfere with its operations.)

When prarabdha karma is testing us, it is for us to seek God's grace more and more. Many saints have taken their
prarabdha karma effects with great perseverance. Saiva Siddhantam, of course, says God can make the effects a little
lean and thus suffering is reduced. For example, when an arrow is aimed at my head, it hits the head gear and it is lost
but head is saved. In Tamizh, they say, 'What came to my head went off with my head gear.'

There were two saint poets. One was blind and the other was lame. The blind used to carry the lame and they go to visit
many Siva temples. When they were in Madurai, and were taking bath in a tank, the waist cloth was dragged away from
one of them and he could not come out of the water since he would be naked!

He sang:   .....ikkalingam ponAl enna? (What if, this dress is lost?) kalingam = dress.

The other completed: then Madurai chokkalikngam unde thuNai! (Chokkalingam of Madurai, Siva, Sundreswra   
is called Chokkalingam in Tamizh). Chokkalingam is there to help us!

When a rich man was observing these saint poets, he quickly came down to the tank offering a pair of silken clothes!

Arunachala Siva.
     

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Thanks. Yes - I remember தலைக்கு வந்தது தலைப்பவோடு போனது  (Sorry for my bad Tamil Spelling).

[Beloved Abstract]

karma is simply ... whatever happens , it isnt personal .
the reason we believe it is personal is because we believe we are a person .
beliefs are what keep us from truth .
simply stop believing and see who you really are without beliefs .
im not saying there is anything wrong with beliefs , they have practical purposes for the survival of the species , but if you really want truth you have to stop all beliefs , if only for a moment .
you can always pick them back up , but after stopping you have a real choice to let beliefs lead or let truth lead .
 

[Ravi.N]

Beloved abstract,
'but after stopping you have a real choice to let beliefs lead or let truth lead'
You will then realize that there is no such thing like choice and no need for one!
Namaskar.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Krishnan and Ravi,

I have already mentioned how in a few cases, Sri Bhagavan made the prarabdha karma to nullity.

However, His standard upadesa has been given in Talks in a few conversations:

1. How is Prarabdha Karma related to Purushakara (one's own effort)?

   Maharshi: Prarabdha is Karma (action). There must be a karta (doer) for it. See who the karta is. Purushakara is effort.
   See who exerts. There is identity established. The one who seeks to know their relation is himself is the link.

   What is karma and rebirth?

   Maharshi: See the karta (doer) and then karma (action) becomes obvious. If you are born now, rebirth may follow.
   See if you are born now.

                                       (Talks No. 295).

2. Maharshi: When the prarabdha is exhausted the ego is completely dissolved without leaving any trace behind. This is
   the final liberation. Unless prarabdha is completely exhausted the go will be rising up in its pure form even in Jivanmuktas.
   
                                      (Talks No. 286).

3.  Maharshi: Karma is posited as past karma etc., There must be kartritva (doership) and karta (doer) for it. Karma (action)
     is only as dehatma buddhi ( I am the body idea) lasts. After transcending dehatma buddhi one becomes a Jnani. In the absence
    of that idea (buddhi) there cannot be either kartritva or karta.  So a Jnani has no karma. Otherwise he is not a Jnani. However
    an ajnani identifies the Jnani with his body, which a Jnani does not do. So the ajnani finds the jnani acting, because his body
    is active, and therefore he asks if the Jnani is not affected by prarabdha.   The scriptures say that Jnana is the fire that burns
    away all karmas - sarvakarmani. Sarva is interpreted in two ways, of which one excludes prarabdha. So it is said Jnana burns
    away all karmas excepting prarabdha. But from the Jnani's point of view, there is only the Self which manifests in such variety.
    There is no body or karma apart from the Self, so that the actions do not affect him. If prarabdha is conceded, then vasanas
    also must be supposed to exist. But they exist only for his enjoyment - bhoga hetu and not dukka hetu.

                                     (Talks No. 383).

Arunachala Siva.