Author Topic: Is it Prana?  (Read 2833 times)

sanjaya_ganesh

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Is it Prana?
« on: April 18, 2012, 09:57:12 AM »
Friends,

I keep getting myself into this trap - is it not Prana which is persistent when awake, dreaming or in deep sleep. Is it not prana which is "persisting" me in deep sleep and giving me continuity when I wake up. The same I which slept, came back with continuity because Prana was there all through? Is it not? When Prana goes the "I" goes and never comes back (unlike in sleep) and has no continuity. THis is the mental trap I am in.

I know I am wrong obvioulsy because my most beloved Guru says it is not - but I am unable convince myself ? Should I simply trust Guru and proceed that it is NOT Prana or is there any logical explanation to my dilemma?

-Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 10:03:49 AM »
Dear Sanjay,

You are right.

Prana surely exists all the time i.e in all the 3 states but it is only because of your counsicouness you are aware prana exists.

MOreover as bhagavan says you should not mix dream body and waking state body. In dreams you imagine another body which may have a prana associated with the body.

But in all the 3 states only thing which is persistent is your counsicouness.

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 10:12:43 AM »
Prashanth Ji - Thanks. Yes. Let me clarify my dilemma when I think that way :). If Prana exists consciousness exists. If Prana does not exist consciousness does not. So it is not Prana which is even controlling consciousness in that sense? I guess I am a totally confused person :(
Salutations to Bhagawan

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 12:06:34 PM »
sanjaya garu i really appreciate you as blind trust in scriptures/gurus without proper reasoning will not go much further.

Even ramana maharshi did not trust blindly like say horoscope,official invitations to sanyasam etc.

In telugu when someone died we typically say "ayana pranam poyindi raa." so agreed that prana is the ultimate when we refer to our body.

In deep sleep are you aware your prana exists? no. but you will agree you sleep happily. Only now in waking state you again speak that your prana did exist in deep sleep as well though you did not have a clue in deep sleep.

So it is onl your counsicouness or awarness that exists in all 3 states.

Prana suffuses all living forms but is not itself the Atman or individual soul.

Similarly, man’s bondage is caused by the mind, and liberation, too, is caused by that alone.

Anandamaya means composed of ananda, or bliss. In the Upanishads the sheath is known also as the causal body. In deep sleep, when the mind and senses cease functioning, it still stands between the finite world and the self. Anandamaya, or that which is composed of Supreme bliss, is regarded as the innermost of all. The bliss sheath normally has its fullest play during deep sleep: while in the dreaming and wakeful states, it has only a partial manifestation. The blissful sheath (anandamaya kosha) is a reflection of the Atman which is bliss absolute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosha

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 12:17:24 PM »
Prashanth Garu - Thanks. Yes - I understand the Kosha theory very well. I am trying to logically prove it :) - that is all.

Quote
In deep sleep are you aware your prana exists? no. but you will agree you sleep happily. Only now in waking state you again speak that your prana did exist in deep sleep as well though you did not have a clue in deep sleep.

Exactly - so Prana exists even if I am aware of it or not. Awareness comes and goes, but Prana exists whether I am aware of it or not :) - is that not what this means. Nobody will saw I was not aware in sleep so I dont know if Prana existed or not.

I think this is where I need to go beyond one life and start looking at possibilities of rebirth. The fact that I am born this way with so and so qualities means that I must have existed even before Prana came in. If not, every human woudl be one and same with same bevaviours at birth. It is not - children even from early age have preferences. I may have preference for medical field even though everyone in my family be an advocate. This means I came into being as a continuum from something else. Meaning I existed even before this prana started this body. Wakefulness, dream and sleep alone does not help me reach this conclusion. I need to think of a state beyond Prana, right? Why was Bethovan able to compose even when he was less than 10 years old. None of his family were musicians of that calibre. I think I have to go beyond the sleep example to prove this to myself and that slowly makes sense to me.
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 12:18:08 PM »
I keep getting myself into this trap - is it not Prana which is persistent when awake, dreaming or in deep sleep. Is it not prana which is "persisting" me in deep sleep and giving me continuity when I wake up. The same I which slept, came back with continuity because Prana was there all through? Is it not? When Prana goes the "I" goes and never comes back (unlike in sleep) and has no continuity. THis is the mental trap I am in.

I know I am wrong obvioulsy because my most beloved Guru says it is not - but I am unable convince myself ? Should I simply trust Guru and proceed that it is NOT Prana or is there any logical explanation to my dilemma?

Dear i,

How were you able to discern thus? You must be separate from the prana to have watched it all through, during your sleep, waking, dream states, don't you  :)

You are that, in whose presence all happens, or, how else, are you able to say, and, present your observations for reasoning?

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 12:33:38 PM »
Nagaraj sir -

Can I call you "I sir" :) - I love your way of addressing us all as "Dear i" :). Thanks.

Quote
How were you able to discern thus? You must be separate from the prana to have watched it all through, during your sleep, waking, dream states,


I never watched it through. Only Prana existed and when I woke up I "tried interpreting it" when awake - right? Prana maintained the body and there was none else to "watch it". Yes - I can ask the question now - "Who maintained Prana"? But that can also go to an answer which is the famous Triputi and I can answer it saying "Eshwara maintained it" - but then that is going to Triputi trap which many scriptures say clearly as Maya. What I am tending to concllude is that sleep, dream and wakefulness is not helping me personally logically prove the existence of I unless I logically prove the existence of "I" without Prana as in my previous post. Going to prove the theory of rebirth. I know scriptures downplay rebirth theory - but without that going beyond Prana is very hard personally for me. Any thoughts please?
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 12:57:13 PM »
Dear i,

please feel free call youself any way you are comfortable :)

You said - "Only Prana existed"

How are you able to say this? You are able to claim very convincingly that Prana existed. It is true, it existed.

And, you also said - "I never watched it through." but still, you are able to say, Prana existed.

When you said, you never watched it, you meant to have not watched it through your 5 senses, your never saw it, felt it, smelled it, heard it, tasted it, yet you know its existence!

Let us keep aside the plays of what Prana does. The Prana may do hundreds of things.

But beyond this, you were still able to know it, that prana existed. You were able to see it, without actually seeing it, you were able to hear it, without actually hearing it, you were able to touch it, without actually touching it, you were able taste it, without actually tasting it.

It is this 'thing' that you refer to when you made the following observations:

"Who maintained Prana"?
"Eshwara maintained it"

You want to logically prove the existence of "I" without Prana. How is this possible, when the entity that is trying to prove ios itself the proving entity.

How can the Sun illuminate itself? How can the Knife cut itself? How can the tongue taste itself? How can the water drink itself?

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 01:48:52 PM »
Quote
How are you able to say this? You are able to claim very convincingly that Prana existed. It is true, it existed.

And, you also said - "I never watched it through." but still, you are able to say, Prana existed.

I was able to say this because I woke up AS IS with no damage :). If Prana had left me, I would not have been there to say. So it is very logical that Prana existed. And I said this after convincing myself that I woke up intact :).

Quote
You want to logically prove the existence of "I" without Prana. How is this possible, when the entity that is trying to prove ios itself the proving entity.

This would Prana is I, which is not true. What I am getting to is unless I logically prove the existence of THAT I  (not the egoistic I) without Prana - I can no way cross the powerful maya created barrier of Prana. Is it not true? I agree without Prana I cannot do that :)
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 02:01:06 PM »
Dear i,

Some discernment for contemplation :)

when you said - "I woke up AS IS with no damage"

Who are you refering to? Who woke up from sleep?

Who are you refering to, which reference you have used in your following observation:

"If Prana had left me, I would not have been there to say."

Who is the 'me' which context, you meant, if prana would have left it (me), that would not been there to say.

Even to say that, you would not have been to see, that Prana did not exist, something else should exist :) which sees the absence of prana.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 02:10:50 PM »
Quote
Even to say that, you would not have been to see, that Prana did not exist, something else should exist  which sees the absence of prana

That is where it gets tricky :). Why should something exist if Prana is not there? I guess this is exactly the confusion that led Budhists to Shunya vada :).

Quote
when you said - "I woke up AS IS with no damage"
Who are you refering to? Who woke up from sleep?

In essence, "I" was persisted inside Prana when I slept. Only Prana existed. No I. When Prana projected back "I", "I" came up and said Prana should have existed in sleep as it projected me back itact. Not logical?

I am sorry - I am trying to walk the path and prove Shunya vada wrong which Acharya Swamigal did so well I have heard. Again, I think I cannot escape the question "Who controlled Prana" and that which controlled Prana must be there when everything else is not there. And must exist when Prana disappears. But I cannot reach it with Prana. Perhaps, that is why great souls go through "death experience" like Bhagawan. Else, mere sleep experience would have led them there :)
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 02:14:40 PM »
Dear i,

don't worry about sunyavada, non sunyavada, advaita, visishtadvaita, dvaita, and millions of other siddhantas.

Truth is beyond all siddhantas or Truth is true to all Siddhantas.

Let us observe without invoking any siddhantas, whether this is sunya, or, advaita, etc..

but, for now, i am having to rush somewhere, so would respond back to your post later in the day. :) You reason well. please continue to reason out well, and we can together move towards light.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 02:37:47 PM »
Thank you, "I sir" :)

I think I have to attack this problem in only 2 ways as per my limited brain.

(1) Who controlled Prana and ensured it existed during sleep? And it must be the same controller who exists when Prana leaves this body.

(2) Since each living being has an individuality and unique preferences even while living in same house, there must have been something inside them which is not mere sthula sharira / Prana. And this must be the same entity in (1) logically, which exists without Prana

These prove the existence of Sookshma Sharira which takes births and is subtler than even Prana / Sthula Sharira. Now I take the route – Who controls Sookshma Sharira to do all this?  And that must be there right here right now with me. A nonexistent entity cannot control something existent.

I can discuss all these :) - but it is like learning anatomy of a snake which is actually a rope :) in other words. But then I am yet to see the rope :(
Salutations to Bhagawan

Subramanian.R

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 02:41:06 PM »
Dear sanjaya_ganesh,

When Prana is still going in and coming out, mind is dormant in deep sleep. Though prana is the gross form of mind,
prana alone functions in deep sleep and not mind. This EXCEPTION is done by Iswara. Sri Bhagavan clearly clarifies
this point in Who am I?  Other instances are fainting and samadhi. 

Arunachala Siva.   

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Is it Prana?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 03:47:06 PM »
Dear Sanjay,

Yes probably as you said reincarnation theories and thinking about child prodigies will help us to convince more in rejecting prana as ultimate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%81rv%C4%81ka

There is as known to all carvaka school of thought who thinks there is no life after death and prana is the end of all.

As subramanian garu said breath in deep sleep is exception and controlled by ishwara.

Now dont ask me who is ishwara and whether he is male or female or supreme consciousness ...

pls remember because Few things will never be very clear and few are based on faith and personal experiences hence we see multiple theories and atheists living along with us always.

Even in tamil nadu from where great ramana maharshi comes there are many atheists living in current generation though few have great materislist education.

Though telugu advaita sanyasi Sundara Chaitanya Swami who has great respect to ramana maharshi and many times praises him says lord krishna is the utimate supreme consciouness.

He says you cannot pick and choose few slokas from bhagavad gita.

But as guru ramana says there is unity in diversity.