Author Topic: on overcoming Passions  (Read 1976 times)

Nagaraj

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on overcoming Passions
« on: April 12, 2012, 07:29:39 AM »
Find their root and then it will be easy. (Later) What are the passions? Kama (lust), krodha (anger), etc. Why do they arise? Because of likes and dislikes towards the objects seen. How do the objects project themselves in your view? Because of your avidya, i.e., ignorance. Ignorance of what? Of the Self. Thus, if you find the Self and abide therein there will be no trouble owing to the passions.

(Later) Again, what is the cause of the passions? Desire to be happy or enjoy pleasure. Why does the desire for happiness arise? Because your nature is happiness itself and it is natural that you come into your own. This happiness is not found anywhere besides the Self.

Do not look for it elsewhere. But seek the Self and abide therein. Still again, that happiness which is natural is simply re-discovered, so it cannot be lost. Whereas the happiness arising from other objects are external and thus liable to be lost. Therefore it cannot be permanent and so it is not worth seeking. Moreover craving for pleasures should not be encouraged.

One cannot put out burning fire by pouring petrol over it. An attempt to satisfy your craving for the time being, so that the passion may later be suppressed, is simply foolish.There are, no doubt, other methods for the suppression of passion. They are (1) regulated food, (2) fasting, (3) yoga practice, (4) medicines. But their effects are transitory. The passions reappear with greater force as soon as the check is removed. The only way to overcome them is to eradicate them. That is done by finding their source as stated above.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: on overcoming Passions
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 07:30:44 AM »
Question : What is the best way of dealing with desires and vasanas with a view to getting rid of them - satisfying them or suppressing them?

Ramana Maharshi : If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like trying to quench a fire by pouring inflammable spirits on it. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into a forceful surging up of desires with undesirable consequences.

The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out `Who gets the desire? What is its source?' When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink, sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy.

They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: on overcoming Passions
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 12:51:18 PM »
Dear Udai,

vasanas eventually dissolve when we keep the mind stilled for a long time.
We need to practise regular meditation , self inquiry and japa
and also listen to some scriptures every day.
this has to be inculcated and we have to include all this in our lives.
thats the way to eventually calm the vasanas and dissolve them.
As even we need regualr exercise for the body we need regular meditation and japa for the mind and also listening to the vedanta.

None of these can be avoided. until one is effortlessly established as Self.

Perhaps in our case, it is more like, watching a movie in a theater and trying to keep ourselves still  :D

My point of observation is that, in our case, we ought to be dynamically still, that is, keep doing our swadharma and remain still, ie. focused on self. For instance, which ever direction we see, it is only Vasana temptations in all sides.

At your work place, its the gossip of what people talk, when you go out, some tasty eatery, very big inviting pictures, in the roads, some times the vehicles themselves become temptations, people and their behavior, triggers anger, big big billboards, advertisements, television, people, the way people dress.

In our case, we are directly involved with objects that trigger passions. We are more closer to these objects. Now, the question of concern is that, if we try to remain focused in Self, the duty there is affected, certainly, you want to avoid these objects that trigger your vasanas.

What we are trying to do, is that, we want to do meditation while watching a movie in theater! It is still possible to focus on Self, but, the point is, when we focus on self, we will not watch movie, in the same way, our day to day activities are getting affected, if we truly and sincerely practice focusing on Self.

Hence, all our attempts are filing miserably.

What I assimilated from Bhagavan words is that, these focusing on Self, ain't going to help really. Knowledge alone relieves

True nature of all vasanas need to be discerned. Why are we attracted to various objects. What is there in those objects that attracts us?

Generally, we only lament, oh, am so much bound by vasanas, but we don't enquire , why are we bound by vasanas. Unless this is discerned, no matter how much tapas, meditation, concentration, effort, all are bound to fail, verily like that of Vishwamitra.

we can discuss further.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: on overcoming Passions
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 01:47:32 PM »
Sri Bhagavan says in Talks No. 523:

1. Why do passions arise? Because of likes and dislikes towards the objects seen. How do the objects project themselves
in your view. Because of your avidya, ignorance. Ignorance of what? Of the Self.  Thus, if you find the Self and abide therein
there will be no trouble owing to the passions.

2. Again, what is the cause of the passions? Desire to be happy or enjoy pleasure. Why does the desire for happiness arise?
Because your own nature is happiness itself and it is natural that you come into your own. This happiness is not found anywhere
besides the Self.  Do not look for it elsewhere. But seek the Self and abide therein.

3. Still again, that happiness which is natural is simply rediscovered. So it cannot be lost. Whereas the happiness arising from other
objects are external and thus liable to be lost. Therefore it cannot be permanent and so it is not worth seeking.

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: on overcoming Passions
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 05:14:01 PM »
Dear Subramanian Sir, Udai,

Sri Bhagavan says in Talks No. 523:

1. Why do passions arise? Because of likes and dislikes towards the objects seen.

2. Again, what is the cause of the passions? Desire to be happy or enjoy pleasure. Why does the desire for happiness arise?

3. Whereas the happiness arising from other
objects are external and thus liable to be lost. Therefore it cannot be permanent and so it is not worth seeking.

a) If anyone tries remaining aware of the Self while watching a movie, one would immediately recognize that the amount of interest in the movie is indirectly proportional to the time we actually remain aware of the Self.

c) I practise regularly remaining established in "Aham Asmi", "I AM" --- we can do it during the day, during the work, or during any activity... just a small pause and remain established as self as "I AM"! that is like smearing the mind with oil again and again.

d) Then there is an indirect way. Drop asha, Hope. Say "No where to go, nothing to do". be like an empty room, the doors of the room are the sense organs and this body. The space within is awareness. and there should be no one else inbetween. Thus, while interacting, doign things etc... you remain as an empty room... whenever there appears a fellow inbetween  and says "i like this, i dont like this or i want this"... resolve him into the awareness which is the space of the room and remain as awareness. this can be practised, as it means having no agenda. "no where to go, nothing to do". just remain. and while interacting , no agenda. relaxed... just a holliday.

Fundamentally, i discern from here, that the root of these issues is because,

We either
  • Are not yet able to realise the Atmic bliss
  • Are able to directly realise the bliss in external objects
It is sure, what ever we are exerting ourselves for, it is only for the bliss, happiness. For Now, that the Atmic bliss, is our real nature, that Atmic bliss is only the everlasting bliss, Atma is our real nature, etc... are only golden words of promise to us (at least as of now) but, we have not yet realised this truth. We strongly believe in this, only because we have faith in our Guru, in our scriptures. We implicitly believe that realisation of our atmic nature is our true goal. But, on the contrary, we seem to experience momentary happiness in our day to day affairs, in the objects external to ourselves, whereas, we are not yet able to experience the atmic bliss as lovingly shared by Guru's and the scriptures.

One one hand, there is faith, and, on the other hand, we have direct experience of external objects. Let us keep aside the revelations of the Sages, like, Atma is ever here, ever shining, ever blissful , etc... but, it is certain that we are experiencing the atmic bliss as well, but unconsciously, where as we experience the external objects consciously. I am able to say that we are experiencing the atmic bliss also just because of the fact that, we do remain still, without any external objects, in happiness. Those moments when we just are, without doing anything, simply sitting, simply being, is surely the experience of Atmic bliss as it is thoroughly independent, without the support of any external aid, such as objects, people, relationship, past happy memory, etc... it is thoroughly free of just anything.

Now, as i write here, i am thoroughly happy at this recognition of the atmic bliss, and it simply gives me immense happiness is expressing myself here, perhaps, not even to share with anybody. But, I am free at the moment, free from my duties, I am momentarily free from my duties. Now, in a while, the duties would present themselves to me, and, the intensity of this recognition would usually, slowly begin to fade away, as the responsibilities are quite demanding. I realise, that no matter, what duties, we have to slowly and slowly, reduce our responsibilities to the barest minimum. Because these responsibilities should not supersede the responsibility of remaining in constant recognition with atma. The more we recognise in recognition with the atma, the lesser one would want to experience the momentary happiness that which comes with cost, which is effort. Where as the Atmic bliss is free ;) readily available, and requires no effort on our part, yet, we seem to opt for the latter, external objects.

I am urged to ask myself, how do i know that i am experiencing myself, ie. i am enjoying the recognition of atmic bliss? Now, perhaps, these questions are being asked by each one of us, without words or thoughts perhaps. It could be so that we are wanting something higher or greater than ourselves to affirm our real nature to us. To put it briefly, we are wanting to hear from something external to ourselves to affirm ourselves, our recognition. Do we want to be told, yes what you are experiencing is Atmic bliss. This perhaps arises, only due to the doubt that we could perhaps be deluding ourselves, by imagining it to be atmic bliss, where as it could even be just, yet another external momentary happiness.

Here, Now, Sages have quoted some clues in helping us to affirm if our experience is truly atmic bliss or not. They have expressed as follows - Swayam Prakasaham - Self Effulgent, meaning, it is absolutely independent, as observed before, this experience of bliss is totally free of objects, memory, people, thoughts. Then, we have the Mahavakyas -

Tat Tvam Asi - That Thou Art, here, this helps me to see, that, that recognition of Atmic bliss is itself I am, I am that recognition, I am that atma.

Aham Brahmasmi - if we carefully, see this, the real translation goes thus - Aham - I, Brahma - Atma, Asmi - am --> I am Brahman - So, here that recognition, itself should know, that it is that, it is not going to declare in words or thoughts, but intuitively, the recognition knows, it knows as itself, Swayam Prakasha iti. It reveals itself through its own light. We are able to see the sun through its own light.

Ayam Atma Brahma - Ayam - this, Atma - itself, Brahma - That - This myself is that. That recognition, that we are talking about itself, reveals itself as That. It knows.

Prajnanam Brahma - Prajna - Self Knowing, the ideal word for Prajna is Ulladu, what Bhagavan has used in tamil. Self knows. The recognition itself knows.

These are some of the clues, the Sages have revealed. There are many such clues, as revealed by the Sages, we could discuss even more.

Knowing itself is Brahman, knowing fully thorougly well, without any doshas, would destroy all our predispositions towards external objects.

If we experience the atmic bliss thoroughly, then through the recognition itself, one will begin to drop the dependence on external objects for happiness. It is only because, we are not recognition the bliss of atma, that we look towards the external objects for happiness. Atmic bliss is ever present, only we fail to put our attention on it. Again, putting attention is verily recognition. Recognition is constant, like,

ajya-dhärayä srotasä samam
sarala cintanaà viralataù param

Like an unbroken flow of oil or a stream of water, continuous meditation is better than that which is interrupted.

The recognition has to be un interrupted. This recognition is not something like DVD player, that we can pause for some time and then resume it from that very point. Untill our recognition of the atmic bliss is stronger ie. NISHTA till then, we ought to be very very careful. The daily responsibilities and duties are the villains, which try to dissuade you from atmic bliss and if we get lost in the dynamics of performing our duties, then we will forget that recognition and once again go back to where we started from. We would have forgotten and began to think that the experience of happiness through external aids is contending, and we would continue to strive and put immense efforts in order to experience the happiness again and again, because, here its like a battery, once the power is over the batter is of no use, you either need to re charge it or you need to buy another battery.

Recognition is important and constantly remaining in recognition is even more important.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: on overcoming Passions
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 06:10:31 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan while answering some other question in Talks No. 252 also says:

Q: How to control lust, anger etc.,?

Maharshi: Whose are these passions? Find out. If you remain as the Self, there will be found to be nothing apart from Self.
Then there will be no question of control etc.,

To another question in Talks No. 371, Sri Bhagavan describes the practical way for sadhakas like you and me.

Q: How are lust, anger, acquisitiveness, confusion, pride and jealousy be overcome?

Maharshi: By dhyana.

Q: What is dhyana?

Maharshi: Dhyana is holding on to a single thought and putting off all other thoughts.

Dhyana or meditation with a single thought in our mind - can help to overcome passions.  This is given keeping in view
of the seekers, because staying in the Self does not come about easily in the beginning.


Arunachala Siva. 

Nagaraj

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Re: on overcoming Passions
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 06:24:59 PM »
Dear Udai,

yes yes, very much  जाग्रत जाग्रत   :)

Subramanian Sir,

What you have quoted of Bhagavan's talks is very much do-able. i have noticed, perhaps in every answer of Bhagavan, he only takes back one to the source, ie. Self, He kept saying the same thing, remain as Self, be as Self, abide as Self,... that itself would relieve us of all miseries.

WRT Dhyana, one pointed concentration, i want to admit, after some point, it becomes bored? I am sure, others also face this, and then, we turn to alternatives such as, forums, reading books, may be spiritual, but still, yet again, after some more time, we get tired, as we are still using external stimulus, in order to remain within spiritual realms. We use computers, books, etc...

So, how do we remain in constant dhyana, without getting bored? Bhagavan gave an ideal and most effective way of looking at the cource of I thought, which too, after some point, we get into the realms of perhaps voidness, or blankness, but yet again, Bhagavan says, stop not, enquire, who is it that sees the voidness, blankness, and continue enquiring the I thought.

Really speaking, it gets tiring. And i try to 'just be' without any effort, as mentioned by Udai. I remain, i just remain, but this too, after some time, the energies within are slowly bubbling over, and after some time, you just cant be.

Which is what I have raised in my post regaring the massiveness of this moment, the energy of this moment is extremely powerful.

about the Kashaya state, this state most sadhakas face often, not knowing what to do, they face a kind of boredom, not really of the worldly type, but because of the immensity of perceiving the vastness of the unknown, ones energy from within is voluminous, He talked about the essense of Sanyasam, Samyak Nyasam. He said about just striving to just being, not letting those energies out, the energies of freeing oneself from boredom, just being, with the boredom, and conquer it, finally, this is Sanyasa.

Infact, this itself is the short process of Nyasam, that we do during any japa, sandhya worship, for a short duration, a sankalpa to not let the energies out of your self, at least that while.

The energy what i am talking about is SO MASSIVE, that i experience, burning sensation around my bosom, which is certainly non physical. Just being, is REALLY KILLING, killing of the energies, it is verily like throwing water into fire.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:12:55 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta