Author Topic: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana  (Read 72323 times)

Ravi.N

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Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MAHIMA: "Can a man live in the world if his mind is once directed to God?"
See God in the world
MASTER: "Why not? Where will he go away from the world? I realize that wherever I live
I am always in the Ayodhya of Rama
. This whole world is Rama's Ayodhya. After
receiving instruction from His teacher, Rama said that He would renounce the world.
Dasaratha sent the sage Vasishtha to Rama to dissuade Him. Vasishtha found Him filled
with intense renunciation. He said to Rama: 'First of all, reason with me, Rama; then You
may leave the world. May I ask You if this world is outside, God? If that is so, then You
may give it up.' Rama found that it is God alone who has become the universe and all its
living beings. Everything in the world appears real on account of God's reality behind it.
Thereupon Rama became silent
.
"In the world a man must fight against passions like lust and anger, against many desires,
against attachment. It is convenient to fight from inside a fort-from his own home. At home
he gets his food and other help from his wife. In the Kaliyuga the life of a man depends
entirely on food.
(Ramana had some comments on the recommendation of Nama for the Kali yuga.The Reason is precisely this-As long as one is strongly entrenched in Body consciousness,one cannot say that Ego is false appearance,world is unreal,etc is-More on this later-Ravi) It is better to get food at one place than to knock at seven doors for it.
Living at home is like facing the battle from a fort.
"Live in the world like a cast-off leaf in a gale. Such a leaf is sometimes blown inside a
house and sometimes to a rubbish heap. The leaf goes wherever the wind blows-sometimes
to a good place and sometimes to a bad. Now God has put you in the world. That is good.
Stay here. Again, when He lifts you from here and puts you in a better place, that will be
time enough to think about what to do then.
"God has put you in the world. What can you do about it? Resign everything to Him.
Surrender yourself at His feet. Then there will be no more confusion. Then you will realize
that it is God who does everything. All depends on 'the will of Rama'
."

continued....

Ravi.N

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Story of "the will of Rama"
A DEVOTEE: "What is that story about 'the will of Rama'?"
MASTER: "In a certain village there lived a weaver. He was a very pious,soul. Everyone
trusted him and loved him. He used to sell his goods in the market-place. When a customer
asked him the price of a piece of cloth, the weaver would say: 'By the will of Rama the
price of the yarn is one rupee and the labour four annas ; by the will of Rama the profit is
two annas . The price of the cloth, by the will of Rama, is one rupee and six annas .' Such
was the people's faith in the weaver that the customer would at once pay the price and take
the cloth. The weaver was a real devotee of God. After finishing his supper in the evening,
he would spend long hours' in the worship hall meditating on God and chanting His name
and glories. Now, late one night the weaver couldn't get to sleep. He was sitting in the
worship hall, smoking now and then, when a band of robbers happened to pass that way.
They wanted a man to carry their goods and said to the weaver, 'Come with us.' So saying,
they led him off by the hand. After committing a robbery in a house, they put a load of
things on the weaver's head, commanding him to carry them. Suddenly the police arrived
and the robbers ran away. But the weaver, with his load, was arrested. He was kept in the
lock-up for the night. Next day he was brought before the magistrate for trial. The villagers
learnt what had happened and came to court. They said to the magistrate, 'Your Honour,
this man could never commit a robbery.' Thereupon the magistrate asked the weaver to
make his statement.
'The weaver said: 'Your Honour, by the will of Rama I finished my meal at night. Then by
the will of Rama I was sitting in the worship hall. It was quite late at night by the will of
Rama. By the will of Rama I had been thinking of God and chanting His name and glories,
when by the will of Rama a band of robbers passed that way. By the will of Rama they
dragged me with them; by the will of Rama they committed a robbery in a house; and by
the will of Rama they put a load on my head. Just then, by the will of Rama the police
arrived, and by the will of Rama I was arrested. Then by the will of Rama the police kept
me in the lock-up for the night, and this morning by the will of Rama I have been brought
before Your Honour.' The magistrate realized that the weaver was a pious man and ordered
his release. On his way home the weaver said to his friends, 'By the will of Rama I have
been released.'
"Whether a man should be a householder or a monk depends on the will of Rama.
Surrender everything to God and do your duties in the world. What else can you do?
A
clerk was once sent to prison. After the prison term was over he was released. Now, what
do you think he did? Cut capers or do his old clerical work?
"If the householder becomes a jivanmukta, then he can easily live in the world if he likes. A
man who has attained Knowledge does not differentiate between 'this place' and 'that place'.
All places are the same to him. He who thinks of 'that place' also thinks of 'this place'
.

Namaskar.

eranilkumarsinha

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Quote:"But no matter what is your path, the so called "liberation" is by the Grace of God (Guru). Whithout the Grace everything is immaterial."



Of what avail is knowing things
Other than the Self ? And the Self being known,
What other things is there to know ?
That one light that shines as many selves,
Seeing this Self within
As Awareness’ lightening flash;
The play of Grace; the ego’s death;
The blossoming of Bliss.
V. 4, Atma Vidya Kirtanam
( Source: The Collected Works Of Sri Ramana Maharshi


Dear Sri Ramana 1359,


Guru's grace is always there. But we should become fit vessels
to take the Grace, by self-surrender or self-enquiry with utmost
perseverance. His Grace is ever flowing, full. Grace is verily the Self. In the V. 1 of the ‘Atma Vidya Kirtanam’, Sri Bhagwan says that even to the most infirm person, Self, or the Consciousness, ‘I am’, is so very real that in comparison to that Reality even the amlak fruit in one’s palm appears as a mere illusion. Therefore, the Self shines without difference in all the different living beings as the mere Existence-Consciousness ‘I am’. Therefore, to know our True Nature, all we have to do is to attend the Existence-Consciousness ‘I am’ within ourselves. Sri Bhagwan says that attending to ‘I am’ confers Self-Knowledge. Therefore, the Presence of the Existence-Consciousness ‘I am’ in all beings at all times everywhere making it easy to attend to It and hold It is Divine Grace. ‘Merging with It’, ‘Being It’, or ‘the Experience of the Self’, as It is, is the destruction of the ego, shining forth of the Grace, and blossoming of Bliss.

So Sri Bhagwan says:
Lo, very easy is Self-knowledge,
Lo, very easy indeed.
Therefore, what I wish to say is that attending to ever-present Existence-consciousness ‘I am’ is Divine Grace and Its shining forth after the destruction of the ego, either by Enquiry or Surrender, is the ‘SHINING FORTH OF THE GRACE’ AND ‘BLOSSOMING OF BLISS’.
Besides, are we discussing so much without His Grace ? Grace is in the beginning, middle and end, for Grace is the Self. Where else will Grace come from ? It is from the Self alone.
Dear Sri Ramana 1359,there is not a moment when Grace is not operating in us. Our remembrance is the forerunner of Grace. Sri Bhagwan says,”That is the response, that is the stimulus, that is the Self and that is Grace.  yes, we cannot remember Him, nor dispassion can be acquired, nor realisation of the Truth, nor inherence in the Self, in the absence of Guru,’s Grace. That is for certain. His Grace is the primary and essential cause.
Sri Thayumanavar, “Glory to Thee for enablingme to discuss so much and follow Thy words so far.”
But, NEVERTHELESS, OUR EFFORT IS SINE QUA NON. CAN THE SPETACLES AND THE SUN SEE THE SUN FOE US ? We ourselves have to see our true nature. When effort combines with Grace there is nothing in the three worlds that cannot be achieved.

Thank you,
    Anil 
   


Hari

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Quote
Guru's grace is always there. But we should become fit vessels
to take the Grace, by self-surrender or self-enquiry with utmost
perseverance. His Grace is ever flowing, full.

Of course. But there are two kind of people with two kind of interpretation of this. The first say that the Lord choose who to grant with His Grace. It's a destiny. The Second group say what you have said in this quote. I am from the second and share your opinion. But I will put it like this "Human effort is as important as Guru's or God's Grace. Effort without Grace is doomed. But Grace is always there say Guru Ramana". This is the cause why I defended the position of existing of free will in another topic - because believing that everything is predestined makes many spiritual seekers lazy and absolutely irresponsible. Without "will" there is no effort. Then how could we be a vessel for God's (Guru's) Grace? I hope you get what I mean.
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Hari

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Dear Raviji,

Yes. The Will of Rama is there. If I and you have will and all is Rama's Will then it can mean:
1. Rama's Will is my and your will
2. My or your will is Rama's Will
3. My or your will is part of Rama's will

Does any of the answers change the fact that effort is needed? No. For jnani 'must' is the realization that there is no such thing as 'will' and for bhakta - that the only 'will" is Lord's Will. This is the same as what Sri Ramakrishna has said and you quoted in another topic. The final destination of jnani and bhakta is annihilation of the ego which is liberation. When that happens there is no place for discussions and theories because there is no 'one' who to discuss and 'others' who to listen and participate. When you 'see' everything is Rama how can you say 'my will' or 'His Will' or whatever. Everything is experience of Rama Who is the Self.

People think that bhakti is very easy and always choose it instead of Self-inquiry. But if it is that then why so many millions, billions of bhaktas and so few realized persons? Because Complete Surrender is the same as Self-inquiry and the final destination to both methods is annihilation of the ego but nobody wants that. Every bhakta wants to see God, to go to heaven, to see his dead relatives, to have 40 (or whatever the number) virgins there and so on. Does anyone follow God just because the Love for Him, not from fear of going to Hell or from desire of heaven? Almost nobody - and this is true even among these who claim publicly that they love God. They 'love' God may be because their good destiny or the hope of inheriting the heaven.

This is my short response to your post, Sri Ravi. Yes, everything is Rama's Will but only for those who see Rama everywhere. If you ask a christian - "Is all Lord Jesus' Will"? he or she will answer you "No! We have will, Satan too has will". Muslims will answer that way too. The cause for this is lack of Complete Surrender. Only a bhakta surrendered his/her ego to the Lord can see everything as Rama's (Jesus', Shiva's, Hari's, Allah's) Will. Jnanis say "I see no will anywhere. I 'see' only Brahman". The bhakta and the jnanis say the same Truth but reflected by their own remained 'vasanas'.
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eranilkumarsinha

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Dear Sri Ramana 1359,

I firmly believe in the dictum that there is the essential unity in all spiritual matters. For instance, first kind of people, as you have said in your posts, believe that the Lord chooses  who to grant with His Grace, or Sri Bhagwan chooses His preys. Yes, in my view that is right. The solution lies in His Statement that he (that particular chosen jiva) may have put in the necessary labour in his previous births.

Thank you,
  Anil

Hari

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Quote
I firmly believe in the dictum that there is the essential unity in all spiritual matters. For instance, first kind of people, as you have said in your posts, believe that the Lord chooses  who to grant with His Grace, or Sri Bhagwan chooses His preys. Yes, in my view that is right. The solution lies in His Statement that he (that particular chosen jiva) may have put in the necessary labour in his previous births.

Yes. This means that person's will is available. There is no diversity in spirituality. There is just different points of view.
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eranilkumarsinha

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Quote:
Living at home is like facing the battle from a fort.
"Live in the world like a cast-off leaf in a gale. Such a leaf is sometimes blown inside a
house and sometimes to a rubbish heap. The leaf goes wherever the wind blows-sometimes
to a good place and sometimes to a bad. Now God has put you in the world. That is good.
Stay here. Again, when He lifts you from here and puts you in a better place, that will be
time enough to think about what to do then.
"God has put you in the world. What can you do about it? Resign everything to Him.
Surrender yourself at His feet. Then there will be no more confusion. Then you will realize
that it is God who does everything. All depends on 'the will of Rama'."

Dear Sri Ravi N,
           Pranam,

Thank you so much for your inspiring posts. God has put us in the world and nothing can be done about it except resigning and surrendering at His Feet. V. 18-61, Srimad Bhagavad Gita says that Lord dwells in the heart of all beings revolving them by His mysterious Power Maya, as if they were objects mounted on a machine. So, the leaf goes wherever the wind carries it. There is no peace. Mind remains agitated. What to do ? ‘Living at home’ is the thing to do for two reasons: First, it is like facing the battle from the fort as you said. And second, it is cool and calm inside as opposed to heat and cold and agitation outside. Yes, Sri Bhagwan says that there are only two ways: enquire who is agitated and remain fixed at home (in Self), or surrender unconditionally.
ALL DEPENDS ON THE WILL OF RAMA. May I say that HIS WILL ALONE IS OPERATING THROUGH OUR SO-CALLED FREE WILL ?

Thank you,
   Anil

eranilkumarsinha

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Quote:
“Exactly, Sri Subramanian! ! ! That is what I think too. I remember when I read His statements about God in Sri David Godman's book "Be as you are". Bhagavan has given so many contradicting at first sight notions that the reader may be very confused. Thank goodness, Sri David Godman gives very detailed explanation about these seeming differences and so the reader may understand the different view points of Bhagavan. For me Bhagavan gives so many different and sometimes opposing answers because of the different understandings, spiritual maturation, religion, philosophy and so on of the questioner. I am very happy that you share my opinion. So Bhagavan's words must not be considered as a "Holy Book" which we must take litterally and unchangeably and follow them exactly as it is written as some hindus, muslims or christians do but we must meditate on them and to choose which advice He gives is more appropriate for our spiritual maturity and a way of thinking. ”


Dear Sri Ramana 1359,

Yes. Sri Bhagwan’s Words and Teaching varied depending upon the level of maturity or pakva of the devotee to whom they were addressed. Sometimes, they appeared contradictory. But in all methods and sadhanas that were pointed out to different devotees, He always helped focus the attention of the devotees to the One Single Reality i.e. the inescapable Self.
Yes, His Name, all His Utterances and Teaching are holy. He is Lord Sri Arunachala Incarnate and, therefore, His Words and Utterances are one of the holiest books the mankind has ever seen. But yes, one need not take them literally. There is no such need. One need not be dogmatic either. For, His Teaching is holistic and rational to suit the need of the modern so-called rational mind.

Thank you,
   Anil     


Subramanian.R

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Dear nonduel, anil and Ravi and others,

In the subject of ego, two incidents come to mind in Sri Bhagavan's life.

1. Once Chinnaswami was constantly advising Ramanatha Brahmachari, to stop working on charka (the spinning wheel)
since the latter's eyes were already myopic (Ramanatha was wearing  thick glasses) and this spinning would further
cause deterioration in his eyesight. Ramanatha, apart from devoted to Sri Bhagavan was a die hard Gandhian and he
did not leave the practice. Once Chinnaswami caught him (he was a puny figure) by neck and said: If you operate the
charka I shall roll you down these steps! Do you know who am I?

Ramanatha replied coolly: If you and I really know who we are, then we will not be here, fighting with each other!

Even Chinnaswami laughed!

So ego is there, either in a small size or in a king size for every one.

2. Once Devaraja Mudaliar asked about partial surrender. Sri Bhagavan replied: Partial surrender is also good. But one
should graduate to total surrender where the ego is completely destroyed.

The fact that partial surrender is accepted shows that there is ego to begin with and it should be erased slowly and steadily.

There is one verse, Verse 7 in Kovil Tirupadigam in Tiruvachakam of Saint Manikkavachagar, where the saint poet describes
the erasure of ego slowly into an atomic size and then make it disappear.  See David Godman's Power of the Presence, for
an English translation of this verse.

Arunachala Siva.       

eranilkumarsinha

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Dear Sri nonduel and Sri Ramana 1359,

There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by knowledge of reality.
                                                                                                                           Sri Bhagwan

“Though Guru Ramana , who appeared as God incarnate, expounded numerous doctrines, as befitted the different states and beliefs of the various devotees who sought refuge at his feet, you should know that what we have heard him affirm to intimate devotees in private, as an act of grace, as his own true experience, is only the doctrine of ajata (non-creation).”
                                                         V. 100, GVK, Edited by Sri David Godman

The Self alone is eternal. Mind and intellect are phenomena. All the same, practice is sine qua non. Why ? Because the old habits of the mind can be broken only by the continuous practice. Because seeking inward is the path to be gained by man’s intellect. Sri Bhagwan says that the intellect realises after continuous practice that it is enabled by some Higher Power to function. It cannot itself reach that Power. So, there comes a stage when it ceases to function. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is still left there all alone. That is Realisation.
It is thus obvious that the purpose of the intellect is to realise its own dependence upon the Higher Power and its inability to reach the Goal. Therefore, It must annihilate itself by either seeking inward or surrendering at His Feet, before the goal is gained.
Again,
See for whom the mind or intellect functions.
For the ego which is the non-Self. Duality pertains to ego. Hence, Sri Bhagwan teaches to merge the intellect in the ego and destroy the ego either by seeking inward or surrendering unconditionally at His Feet.

Dear devotees, intellect is known to delight in investigating the past and future but not the all-important present; up and down, left and right and the whole universe but it does not easily take to investigation of its own self because it is bound to lose itself if it sank within in search of the Self. And on the contrary, investigation outside gives it a fresh lease of life and food for growth.

SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT PURPOSE OF THE INTELLECT IS TO SHOW THE WAY TO REALISE THE SELF AND IT MUST BE PUT TO THAT USE.

Thank you so much.
           Anil


eranilkumarsinha

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Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Thank you so much for a very nice post, sir. Ji. Yes. The ego is there, either in a small size or in a king size in everyone, till it merges and remains merged forever in the Self. Thank you once again for reminding, sir.

In which part and in which chapter of the Power of the Presence the english translation of the V.7 of the Tirupadigam in Tiruvachakam is to be found ?

Regards,
   Anil

nonduel

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Everyone, Pranams,

What a marvelous place is this forum! I have read all your posts, and I feel an enormous amount of Love for all of you.

I also realise how difficult it is to use words, which always can be interpreted. Furthermore, Bhagavan always anwered a disciple in respect to his understanding, which add to the confusion.

There's really no bad answers or understanding if one follows Ramana's teaching, because the knowledge will come through other members on this forum for example, or from another source. But the answer will come! It is the rythm of the Self that shower its Grace, when one is "ripe".

To conclude, let me try to be more concise. There is only the Self, Brahman. There is nothing to attain, only to realise it. What prevent this realisation is the delusion "I am this body, this so-and-so..." But it doesn't affect the dreamer (Self)

All the doing is God's, all we can do is to surrender. Even to scratch my head is God's will! I cannot do anything about it, so why worry, why try to change anything.

I do not mean to stay passive, not read, get in a cave etc... I think it is important to realise that I am NOT THE DOER! I am the Awareness on which everything is surimposed. We can work hard to change what we cannot, or put the suitcase down on the train and relax.

So what can I "do" to realise who I am? Bhagavan said to do self-enquiry. There comes a "time" when one has to get of the train, stop the continous moving around, letting the mind create chaos, thoughts of failure, of the need to do etc... The mind is a criminal disguised as a policeman. A time to accept!

It is nothing else but "BEING!"   You ARE what you are looking for, and you cannot find it, you can only BE IT.

My deepest Love!



Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Ravi.N

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Ramana/Friends,
The Story of 'Rama's will' is as it is in The Gospel of Sri ramakrishna.'Rama's will' is to be understood to mean God's will(Allah or Jesus,Jehovah or whatever).I have posted to emphasize that one cannot make exceptions in this Regard-one cannot say that all that one can do is 'one's will' and the rest is 'God's will'.Likewise it is to emphasize that all results are as ordained by God,not just the unexpected or Favourable ones.It is not to suggest that effort was not required.The weaver in the story had to do all of it.
I have posted in the Rough-Notebook-Open Forum' on how the paths of jnAna and Bhakti lead to the same Truth.Yet,these have their characteristics in approach,although they are two sides of the same coin.
The Devotee does not question the Ego,he is not concerned how small or Big it is.He does not compare.He is drawn to the Love and Peace that is God and directly experiences this in the core of the Being.He keeps this connection intact inwardly,although outwardly he may continue to participate in the world process.Only he takes care to keep this secret communion going-this is called 'smarana' or 'Practice of the Presence of God'.
He does not treat this world as a Dream.He does not call it unreal and his Ego as unreal.If the Ego is unreal,then why worry about it?If it is Real,what can one do about it!
He does know that while in the world,he makes use of things that he needs , enters into relationship with  people ,relatives,friends,etc,carries out activities towards sustenance and pursuit of Knowledge and arts,etc-all these are secondary to what is most fundamental to living-Love and Peace.His whole sadhana is to stay centred in this oasis within.It is for God to bring about the Ripening and all that one needs to do is to stay on the Tree of Life,i.e God.

As long as one is in Body-Consciousness,it is Futile to call the 'Ego' or the 'world' as unreal.I have posted regarding this in the Open Discussion Forum,under the thread on Bhagavad Gita online.All that one may reasonably say is that one knows that all things are of temporal value and exercise Discrimination and Dispassion in our relationship with the world.
Integrity is key to sadhana and Humility and openness.One needs tocarry on with Sadhana and whatever ripening will happen will happen in due course.

Namaskar.


Subramanian.R

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Dear anil,

Tiruchakam, Kovil Tirupadigam, Verse 7 reads as under:

Today You have graced me, removed the darkness in my mind,
Like the sun that removes the darkness.
Your state in my heart, I am remembering without break
There is nothing other than You,
Approaching approaching You,  O Lord of Tiruperundurai,
Who wore me down, more and more to an atom's size,
till I, becoming less and less, became one with You.   


This is my own translation. David's, I am not able to get in spite of 1 hour search.

Saint Tayumanavar describes the same state in his Udal PoyyuRavu, Verse 25:

Why day and night, shout I am That loudly,
Referring to the Realtiy whose bliss is ineffable?
Those who have attained the auspicious Siva Jnana
say that in the state of true mouna there is no I.

(mouna here is the state which is beyond thoughts, words and deeds. It is Atma mouna)

Arunachala Siva.