Author Topic: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana  (Read 49750 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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                                                     OM NAMO BHAGWATE SRI RAMANAYA

Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan says:
“It is enough that one surrenders oneself. Surrender is to give oneself up to the original cause of one’s being. Do not delude yourself by imagining such source to be some God outside you. One’s source is within yourself. Give yourself up to it. That means that you should seek the source and merge in it. “
                                                                                                                     Talk—208

We should note here that Sri Bhagwan says that only because we think or imagine ourselves to be out of It that we raise the question, “Whence are we? or, where is the source?”

Sri Muruganar, the great poet and devotee, sings:
“Be aware that the two paths of jnana and bhakti are inseparably related. Therefore, without separating one from the other through the delusion that they are different, practice both simultaneously and harmoniously in your heart.”
                                                                                         V-731, GVK, Edited by Sri David Godmam

 Sri Muruganar says that the claim that, out of these two i. e. Bhakti and Jnana, one is the means to the other, is due to simply not knowing the nature of either.

Thank you,
     Anil                                                 

Subramanian.R

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Dear Anil,

Sri Bhagavan, when He speaks of surrender, He keeps a very high standard for surrender.  The total surrender means that there
is no ego in you and all that happens in life is God's.  He used to say in Tamizh Nin ishtam, en ishtam.  Your wish is my wish.

In self inquiry, the ego is jettisoned first and then Self is realized. In surrender the ego is kept for sometime during initial periods
of bhakti and prayers. Finally the ego is surrender and everything becomes God's will.
At that stage, both inquiry and surrender become the same.  One can practice both simultaneously.

There are two types of karmas. Vihita karma - daily routine. Nishita karma - that which is prohibited. The Vihita karma by itself
will not produce any good results. But not doing it will divert your attention to nishita karmas, like watching TV for hours together,
futile chit chatting, reading unwanted books, etc., etc., If you are bound by vihita karma like sandhya, prayers, etc., all through the
day, then you will have no time for Nishita karmas.  Finally when total surrender takes place, vihita karmas also drop away.

Arunachala Siva.       

Nagaraj

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Very subtly discerning, it is a blemish-less understanding that there is really nothing to surrender really. There is really no ego to surrender, it is the seeing as being, the ego or mind, hung its head on shame before the its own self, and remaining in constant awareness of this truth, always. Here, one will see the impossibility of surrendering! What is really ours to surrender? It is a realisation or blemish less discernment that we are by default surrendered already and any effort on our part to surrender is contrary to surrendering.

Which is why the english word 'Surrender' is quite different when compared to Sharanagati (as rightly observed by Sri Ravi elsewhere)

Sharanagati is something like perhaps like the JK lingo, "choiceless and effortless"

Note: But, this discernment, will make sense only to the ripe ones, who have sought the nature of their self very dearly.

Bhagavan says -

All talk of surrender is like stealing sugar from a sugar image of Ganesha and then offering it to the same Ganesha. You say that you offer up your body and soul and all your possessions to God, but were they yours to offer? At best you can say: ‘I wrongly imagined till now that all these, which are Yours, were mine. Now I realise that they are Yours and I shall no longer act as though they were mine.’ And this knowledge that there is nothing but God or the Self, that ‘I’ and ‘mine’ do not exist and that only the Self exists, is Jnana.

I read in newspaper today, quote from Chandogya Upanishad:

Man, in truth, is himself a sacrifice.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:30:36 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,
                               Pranam,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir. But, then, even Investigation, to begin with, is launched by the ego. It is appropriate to remember here:
“THE ‘I’ CASTS THE ILLUSION OF ‘I’ AND YET REMAINS AS ‘I’. SUCH IS THE PARSDOX OF SELF-REALISATION.”
But the realised, says Sri Bhagwan, do not see any paradox or any contradiction in it.

So also, I first approach God and prays for His Lotus Feet, keeping the ego intact, as you said. Then I pray to be absorbed in Him. I then surrender myself with faith and concentrate on Him. What happens? Sri Bhagwan says that in course of time partial surrender will lead to complete surrender. Therefore, complete and surrender or the highest form of devotion leaves a residuum of God in which the ego-‘I’ is completely lost or annihilated.

Be it enquiry or surrender, what is important to understand and assimilate, in my view, is the statement of Sri Bhagwan that the ego has its source from the Self and, therefore, it must be retraced in order that it might merge in its source.
“The centre of the ego and its core is called Heart, the same as the Self.”

Dear sir, having come to Sri Bhagwan, we at least must be aware that Jnana and Bhakti, indeed, are inseparably related and, therefore, we should practice both simultaneously and harmoniously in our heart. Separating one from the other as if they are different is the delusion, says the great poet-saint Sri Muruganar.
Regards.
   Anil







Subramanian.R

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Dear Anil,

Muruganar was gazed by Sri Bhagavan, when He took him to collect leaves for the leaf plate. There He gazed at Muruganar
and Muruganar's ego was completely vanquished and he attained Atma Bodha. How he remained a bhakta to Sri Bhagavan
and wrote about 30000 verses glorifying Sri Bhagavan's greatness in various aspects. Muruganar was a standing example as
to how a Jnani could also be a great bhakta.

Arunachala Siva. 

nonduel

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The question of surrender is one of the most frequently discussed.

There is only the Self, so who surrenders, and what is surrendered?
There is no free will (read the thread on this), so who decides?

The only thing that "we" can freely "do" is to let the ego, the personality, do what it was "programmed" to do (vasanas). Even more so because it has no free choice!

Isn't ironic to put so much effort in what cannot be change through effort?

When we switch our attention to the self (self-enquiry), we are then surrendering the outer "reality"
When we stop to question our "progress" or lack of it.
When we stop to listen to the mind. When we look at all events as being the play of maya and that we are only a witness.
When we stop all effort and just stay in beingness.

Then we are surrendering. It's an absolute "letting go" with the Bhavana, the conviction that we are and always were the Self.

What can "we" really surrender in non-duality?

All effort can only be for the ego, the mind. And in doing so, in trying to do so, aren't we confirming our belief the we are the body?

BE STILL!
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Hari

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Quote
There is no free will (read the thread on this), so who decides?

The only thing that "we" can freely "do" is to let the ego, the personality, do what it was "programmed" to do (vasanas). Even more so because it has no free choice!

Something to be added. Complete surrender means that there is no one to has will. That's why it cannot be "done" by will, free or not. Complete surrender is not by will but by Grace.

Quote
When we switch our attention to the self (self-enquiry), we are then surrendering the outer "reality"
When we stop to question our "progress" or lack of it.

What I think is that Surrender and Self-inquiry are one and the same. In Surrender you "let go" your thoughts to the Lord. In Self-inquiry you "let go" your thought in the process of inquiry. So the important thing is to "let go" your thought and to be what you are. But no matter what is your path, the so called "liberation" is by the Grace of God (Guru). Whithout the Grace everything is immaterial.
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Subramanian.R

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Dear nonduel,

You are putting the cart  before the horse.  Ego is there. To say that it is not there, is only to fool ourself. Ego
is very much there, and so the duality also remains TILL ONE MERGES WITH THAT ONE, wherafter all duality vanishes.
This moment of merger takes place only when we do Self attention and find the source of the ego, or jettison the
ego and tell God that You only are there and not Me.

To say that all is One and where is 'we' - is all not for sadhakas. Sadhakas start from Class 1. To teach Mathematics of
higher class will confuse him. Let us therefore say, there is ego and tell him, how to conquer it.

If there is no ego at all, why should Sri Bhagavan say in His last verse of Sad Darsanam, = the destruction of the ego-form
is Mukti."?

Ego is there. For you, for me, for Nagaraj, and all others. When does it come out - no one knows. It may show its hood
some time. At that time, one should tell God, - please take this surrender and give me Peace.

Arunachala Siva.           

Hari

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Very well said Sri Subramanian. The ghosts which a mentally ill patient "sees" is unreal in our point of view but is very real for the patient and even if we convince him that it is his mind's play that will not stop him from experiencing (seeing) it. We must stick to the Goal and always to think about It but that doesn't mean to fool ourselves that we are at the Goal now. "You are the Self" is true statement but only for One who is experiencing it. Bhagavan Ramana is example for this.
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Subramanian.R

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Dear ramana,

When one reads Talks (which I consider the most profound text of Sri Bhagavan's teachings in prose), one comes
across many statements of Sri Bhagavan with apparent contradictions.  He says there is no Maya, He says Maya cannot
be described, anir vachaneeyam, Ego is only unreal phanton, ahanthai pei - He uses the phrase in one verse. So also with
Mind. He says - 'Where is the mind? Show me! I shall tell you what you should do.'  In another place, He says Mind is only
bundle of thoughts. Control the thoughts. In some other place, He says - take the mind to its source by withdrawing it from
outside world etc., etc.,

Now what one should understand , is that THESE REPLIES HAVE BEEN GIVEN DEPENDING ON THE NATURE AND MATURITY
OF QUESTIONERS.  Some are advanced. They need not require elaboration. Some others are not so advanced. They have
to be told right from beginning, because they are in Class 1. Hence Sri Bhagavan's replies varied.

Most of the members of this website are beginners, or some of them in middle stages. So we have to tell them keeping the
first premise intact, without breaking the first premise.

Devotees like Wolter Kiers, Tinnai Swami, Kunju Swami, Muruganar were all advanced level devotees. But Devaraja Mudaliar
and G.V.S were not. Hence different replies to different people.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Exactly, Sri Subramanian! ! ! That is what I think too. I remember when I read His statements about God in Sri David Godman's book "Be as you are". Bhagavan has given so many contradicting at first sight notions that the reader may be very confused. Thank goodness, Sri David Godman gives very detailed explanation about these seeming differences and so the reader may understand the different view points of Bhagavan. For me Bhagavan gives so many different and sometimes opposing answers because of the different understandings, spiritual maturation, religion, philosophy and so on of the questioner. I am very happy that you share my opinion. So Bhagavan's words must not be considered as a "Holy Book" which we must take litterally and unchangeably and follow them exactly as it is written as some hindus, muslims or christians do but we must meditate on them and to choose which advice He gives is more appropriate for our spiritual maturity and a way of thinking. There is no formula in spirituality. Everyone must find his/her own way. Not everyone is suitable for Self-inquiry, no matter that it is quickest way to Self-realization according to Vedantist and Sri Bhagavan or that repeating of Holy Name of the Lord is the only way of Kali yuga. If that was true, then Bhagavan Ramana should be a spiritual pygmy because He didn't use any of these. "Knowing" your Self is the final Goal but there are many paths which lead to that. Self-inquiry is the final pre-realization step but not everyone can leap directly to it. Thanks for your comment. It was very helpful for me.
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nonduel

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Dear nonduel,

You are putting the cart  before the horse.  Ego is there. To say that it is not there, is only to fool ourself. Ego
is very much there, and so the duality also remains TILL ONE MERGES WITH THAT ONE, wherafter all duality vanishes.
This moment of merger takes place only when we do Self attention and find the source of the ego, or jettison the
ego and tell God that You only are there and not Me.

To say that all is One and where is 'we' - is all not for sadhakas. Sadhakas start from Class 1. To teach Mathematics of
higher class will confuse him. Let us therefore say, there is ego and tell him, how to conquer it.

If there is no ego at all, why should Sri Bhagavan say in His last verse of Sad Darsanam, = the destruction of the ego-form
is Mukti."?

Ego is there. For you, for me, for Nagaraj, and all others. When does it come out - no one knows. It may show its hood
some time. At that time, one should tell God, - please take this surrender and give me Peace.

Arunachala Siva.         

"The ego is still there"

Yes as long as one believe he is the body, the personality.  Although one beleives that the ego is "there", the Ultimate Truth is that there is only the Self. Now we may disagree on this, depending on our view points, but the Truth is that there is only the Self, Brahman. It is maya, delusion to believe that there is a mind, an ego. It is only dirt on a window, clouds hidding the sun.

It is this belief that deludes us, and to destroy this belief we need Self-enquiry.

This belief (I am the body; the I-Though) is also what moves us to "do" things, while the more one does, the more he strenghten the belief that he is the ego and has to attain the Self. Ramana said that this is a major obstacle.

"To say that all is One and where is 'we' - is all not for sadhakas. Sadhakas start from Class 1. To teach Mathematics of
higher class will confuse him. Let us therefore say, there is ego and tell him, how to conquer it."


Yes!  To conquer this delusion! It makes me thing of the story that Sri Sadhu Om told of the man filled with anxiety in the corner of three walls, looking for liberation. Or the rope and snake.

"why should Sri Bhagavan say in His last verse of Sad Darsanam, = the destruction of the ego-form
is Mukti."?


Yes! The destruction of the delusion! Can one destroy an illusion while still nourishing it, keeping it alive and strong? An actor so taken by his role, that he keeps it alive even when the scene is finished.

What I am saying is that as long as one focus, and works, and does...he is identifying with the body, which is the source of the delusion, the mind, the ego. Ramana said that the mind is a criminal dressed as a policeman.

While the identification with the self (self-attention; self-enquiry) is the weapon against the ego and the mind.

The best way to express what I am saying, is BE STILL!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 09:26:34 PM by nonduel »
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Hari

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If anyone of us was believing that ego exists then we would not be here and to follow Bhagavan and Advaita philosophy. But it doesn't mean the we must not accept our current "state". Repeating "I am the Self", "I am not the ego" and so on will not make you more free. Dream illness can be cured with dream medicine. So to just discard the existence of the ego is not very practical. If you analyze further you will see that everything from the first to the last thing you have done from your first breath to the your current condition is the ego, duality. We don't feed the ego. We try to "kill" the imaginary ego by the "imaginary" weapons which are suitable for us. So you are right as much as Sri Subramanian is right. You are right that the ego is illusion as much as the people who consider it real. In Reality there is no opinions and theories.

Best wishes, ramana1359.
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nonduel

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Dear Ramana1359,

You are right it is NOT a question of who is right or not. It is a sharing of different understandings.

Let me try to express it better. Liberation isn't for the Self. Now if we accept this Truth, then who is the doer? It has to be an illusionary individual (the ego). Now no matter how much this ego does, works, discipline himself...it will never attain liberation!

So considering this, what is there to do? Think about this! No matter what the ego will and can do, it will never be liberated. At best we will destroy it.

It is an illusion! So what does Ramana teach?  Rest in the self, go within at the source. The source is within not outside which is the playground of maya, the ego. Another way to put it, stop giving importance to the illusion.

As long as I put effort in the ego, the less I put to reach the source. It's a question of attitude, not a doing. A Being not a doing!
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Hari

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I am not trying to say you are wrong or that your opinion is inferior from my point of view. God forbids! I'm just trying to tell you that no matter what we do, try to do or try not to do is the ego. Every word which we use, every sentence, conversation, even our communication is the ego. If you do Self-inquiry - it is the ego. If you do Nama Japa - it is the ego. You say:

Quote
As long as I put effort in the ego, the less I put to reach the source. It's a question of attitude, not a doing. A Being not a doing!

Attitude? The Self has not attitude. It's the ego!

Quote
It is an illusion! So what does Ramana teach?  Rest in the self, go within at the source. The source is within not outside which is the playground of maya, the ego. Another way to put it, stop giving importance to the illusion.

Source? The Self has no Source. The ego has a Source and only as long as it "exists". See? My, your or Bhagavan's words are not more or less real. Everything is the ego. Bhagavan has known that. For Him everything - Self-inquiry, His teachings and so on are without foundation, illusiory and unnecessary. He gives illusory medicine for our illusory illness. Whatever we do, accept, reject and so on is by the ego. So no matter what is your understanding - the important thing is if this understanding will make you realize your Self. Until we realize that there is not illusion or reality we are bound by the ego because all notions are from the ego.
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