Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 274921 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2325 on: December 02, 2017, 07:15:01 AM »
Friends,
There have been discussions in this forum regarding the so called 'Traditional' way of Sravana,manana,niddhidyasana...and how the path shown by Bhagavan of self enquiry is different than the traditional approach,etc,etc...these arise from the misconception that the traditional path is one of 'negation and affirmation' and that it involves only 'mental affirmations' (I am Brahman)...Those interested in truly appreciating the essence of the matter(and this is fundamental ) may refer to the exposition by Kanchi Mahaswami's 'advaita sadhana':
This is available as a free download :
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/downloads/sadhana.pdf
These are from the discourses in 'Deivaththin Kural' (Chapter 6 if I recall right) and translated into English....Chapters 60 through 67 throw light on the true nature of Sravana,manana and Niddhidyasana as a 'Triad'....'Sravana' is very important as it sows the seed as it were and it is this seed that has the potential and manifests as shraddha shakti and carries on the sadhana,so to say....It is what Sri Bhagavan refers to in the beginning of appalam pattu(appalam song) as (ஒப்புயர்வில்லா ஓர் மொழி) 'oppuyarvilla or mozhi'...the word 'ஓர்' means incomparable but more importantly it also refers to what is to be   'pondered' like in 'el Or empaavai' of tiruppavai.....This is the seed word to be listened and pondered by the sadhaka and to be internalised by him in Niddhidyasana...so,the whole process is a continually potent one and is inexorable.
It is vastly different than just training the mind on some conceptual Brahman as is made out by people who do not understand the fundamental nature of sravana manana niddhidyasana....Mostly these are just OPINIONS and have nothing at all to do with reality.
The appalam pattu brings out the true essence of what is considered the traditional advaitic sadhana and this goes to show that Bhagavan's vichara is no different than it...it is only a terse statement of the same thing but in terms of rigor ,it does not dispense with any of the rigor of the traditional approach...it rather implies all that is delineated in the traditional approach.
Namaskar

srkudai

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2326 on: December 02, 2017, 11:26:27 AM »
Dear Ravi ji,

Quote
path shown by Bhagavan of self enquiry is different than the traditional approach,etc,etc...these arise from the misconception that the traditional path is one of 'negation and affirmation' and that it involves only 'mental affirmations' (I am Brahman).

Very true. Cannot agree more.

This is how i look at it :
Suppose we are going on a car and we look out of the window at the scenery that is around. and if we simply walk along the same path and see the same scenery -  we perceive a very different scene. The reason is, when i am going in a car, i am moving very fast and the images captured on the retina cannot be processed at that speed ... so mind does not really see , but fills the gaps ... its like it sees the scene at a point A and then at another point B and fills the inbetween region ... this is how mind functions. but when we actually take a walk along the path ... we see it differently , because now, the mind has time to process the scene.. now its really seeing the scenery.
if we slow down further , we start to look at the world more deeply and clearly... as we start stilling down, we see both traditional path and the way of Bhagavan are more and more the same.
We need to totally settle down and calm down and we see the true import of what is said.

our affiliation at any point is not the a tradition or to a particular guru ... our affiliation is to truth and if we are sincere the inner guru starts to guide us to see things in the right perspective.

Love!
Silence

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2327 on: December 07, 2017, 03:38:22 PM »
ksksat/Friends,
in the other thread 'Self enquiry as taught by bhagavan is enough' our good friend ksksat had said:

"actually what Udai follows is traditional vedanta based approach rooted in chimaya mission school of thoughts.
what Anil sir, me and many Ramana devotees follow is pure self enquiry exactly as propounded by Maharishee in the small book who am i."


Is this true?...Here is bhagavan's own words from 'nanaar'(nan yaar),paragraph 2:
நானார்? ஸப்த தாதுக்களா லாகிய ஸ்தூல தேகம் நானன்று. சப்த, ஸ்பரிச, ரூப, ரஸ, கந்த மென்னும் பஞ்ச விஷயங்களையும் தனித்தனியே அறிகின்ற சுரோத்திரம், துவக்கு, சக்ஷுஸ், ஜிஹ்வை, கிராண மென்கிற ஞானேந்திரியங்க ளைந்தும் நானன்று. வசனம், கமனம், தானம், மல விசர்ஜனம், ஆனந்தித்தல் என்னும் ஐந்து தொழில்களையும் செய்கின்ற வாக்கு, பாதம், பாணி, பாயு,உபஸ்தம் என்னும் கன்மேந்திரியங்க ளைந்தும் நானன்று. சுவாஸாதி ஐந்தொழில்களையும் செய்கின்ற பிராணாதி பஞ்ச வாயுக்களும் நானன்று. நினைக்கின்ற மனமும் நானன்று. சர்வ விஷயங்களும் சர்வ தொழில்களு மற்று, விஷய வாசனைகளுடன் மாத்திரம் பொருந்தியிருக்கும் அஞ்ஞானமும் நானன்று. மேற்சொல்லிய யாவும் நானல்ல, நானல்ல வென்று நேதிசெய்து தனித்து நிற்கும் அறிவே நான். அறிவின் சொரூபம் சச்சிதானந்தம்.

Who am I? The sthūla dēha [the gross or physical body], which is [composed] of sapta dhātus [the seven constituents, namely chyle, blood, flesh, fat, marrow, bone and semen], is not 'I'. The five jnānēndriyas [sense organs], namely the ears, skin, eyes, tongue and nose, which individually [and respectively] know the five viṣayas [sense domains or types of sense perception], namely sound, touch [texture and other qualities perceived by touch], form [shape, colour and other qualities perceived by sight], taste and smell, are also not 'I'. The five karmēndriyas [organs of action], namely the voice, feet [or legs], hands [or arms], anus and genitals, which [respectively] do the five actions, namely speaking, walking, giving, defecation and [sexual] enjoyment, are also not 'I'. The panca vāyus [the five forms of prana], beginning with prāṇa [breath], which perform the five [metabolic] functions, beginning with respiration, are also not 'I'. The mind, which thinks, is also not 'I'. The ignorance [the absence of all dualistic knowledge] that is combined with only viṣaya-vāsanās [dispositions, propensities, tendencies, inclinations, impulses, desires, taste or liking to experience the objects of sensory perception] when all viṣayas [sensory perceptions] and all actions have ceased [as in sleep], is also not 'I'. Having eliminated everything (Bhagavan is using the phrase 'neti seidhu....literally it means 'doing neti') mentioned above as not 'I', not 'I', the aṟivu [knowledge, awareness or consciousness] that stands isolated alone is 'I'. The nature of [this] knowledge [I am] is sat-cit-ānanda [being-consciousness-bliss].

It is clear from the above that letting go of the non essence as 'neti' (na iti means not this) is the same as abiding in the Self....there cannot be any other way of vichara.

In paragraph 11,Bhagavan expresses this equivalence in a pithy straight forward fashion:
"அன்னியத்தை நாடாதிருத்தல் வைராக்கியம் அல்லது நிராசை; தன்னை விடாதிருத்தல் ஞானம். உண்மையி லிரண்டு மொன்றே"
Not to seek anything 'anya' (other than self) is vairagya or nirasa;Not to let go of Self(Bhagavan does not say 'Hold on to Self'!) is Jnana.In Truth both are one.

In other words ,it is only the 'anya' that is dispensable and one can either hold on to it or let go of it(anya)....The 'Neti' 'Neti' ,as Sri Bhagavan mentions in paragraph 2 of 'nanaar'  means to let go of all that as 'not i'...and this is the essence of vichara...and this is what udai is referring to...and it is absolutely a valid statement and approach... it is the very essence of self surrender....Vichara and self surrender are just the same.

Bhagavan succinctly wraps up how this is the universal and fundamental truth expounded by all scriptures in Paragraph 16:
எந்நூலிலும் முக்தி யடைவதற்கு மனத்தை யடக்க வேண்டுமென்று சொல்லப்பட் டுள்ளபடியால், மனோநிக்ரகமே நூல்களின் முடிவான கருத்து என் றறிந்துகொண்ட பின்பு நூல்களை யளவின்றிப் படிப்பதாற் பயனில்லை.

Since in every [spiritual] text it is said that for attaining mukti [liberation] it is necessary to make the mind subside, after knowing that manō-nigraha [restraint, subjugation or destruction of the mind] is the ultimate intention [or purpose] of [such] texts, there is no benefit [to be gained] by studying texts without limit.

So this is something universal and fundamental and there need not be any confusion about it....I have also referred to appalam pattu where Sri Bhagavan has brought out the essence of the so called Traditional vichara marga and endorsed it.

We need to be wary of anything that divides us into this group or that....the Division that says 'We belong to camp X and He belongs to Camp Y'....such divisions characterize the ego and vichara is to end such divisions in their overt and covert form...these divisive opinions have no substance to them and are a result of not delving deeper into real vichara practice.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:43:52 PM by Ravi.N »

srkudai

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2328 on: December 08, 2017, 11:52:25 AM »
Dear Ravi ji ,

         Agree totally with what is written here. 100% agreement with the way i look at it.

Love!
Silence

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2329 on: December 08, 2017, 06:44:56 PM »
Q: If somebody wants to start practicing the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, where and how should they start?
David: This is another classic question: 'What should I do?' However, the question itself is misconceived. It is based on the erroneous assumption that happiness and peace are states that can be experienced by striving, by effort. The busy mind covers up the peace and the silence that is your own natural state, so if you put the mind in gear and use it to pursue some spiritual goal, you are usually taking it away from the peace, not towards it. This is a hard concept for many people to grasp.
People found their own inner peace in Sri Ramana's presence because they didn't interfere with the energy that was eradicating their minds, their sense of being a particular person who has ideas, beliefs, and so on. The true practice of Sri Ramana's teachings is remaining quiet, remaining in a state of inner mental quiescence that allows the power of Sri Ramana to seep into your heart and transform you. This can be summarized in one of Sri Ramana's classic comments: 'Just keep quiet. Bhagavan will do the rest.'
- David Godman, Interviews
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2330 on: December 09, 2017, 07:18:12 AM »
Atmavichar,
Not sure what the context was to which  David responded...that is only a certain perspective what David has brought out but Bhagavan has written and spoken a lot by way of 'teaching' and clarifying it for the seekers....the essence of it is always the classic 'nan yar' (who am I) vichara that he expounded  with great clarity and purpose.
Bhagavan wished that the small booklet 'nan yar' should be made available to all seekers at a subsidized rate...and this is enough to highlight the importance of this gem of a work.
It will be nice to cover the little book 'nan yar' as a separate thread in this forum...have been thinking about it over the past few days.
namaskar

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2331 on: December 09, 2017, 03:02:16 PM »
This is another reply from David Godman on What actually constitutes Bhagavan Ramana's Teachings .

DG: What are Sri Ramana's teachings? If you ask people who have become acquainted with his life and work, you might get several answers such as "advaita" or "self-inquiry." I don't think Sri Ramana's teachings were either a belief system or a philosophy, such as advaita, or a practice, such as self-inquiry.
     Sri Ramana himself would say that his principal teaching was silence, by which he meant the wordless radiation of power and grace that he emanated all the time. The words he spoke, he said, were for the people who didn't understand these real teachings. Everything he said was therefore a kind of second-level teaching for people who were incapable of dissolving their sense of "I" in his powerful presence. You may understand his words, or at least think that you do, but if you think that these words constitute his teachings, then you have really misunderstood him.
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2332 on: December 09, 2017, 03:24:29 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi , here is the context in which David Godman gave the reply that I have mentioned above
http://davidgodman.org/interviews/al1.shtml

Maalok: If somebody wants to start practicing the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, where and how should they start?


David: This is another classic question: 'What should I do?' However, the question itself is misconceived. It is based on the erroneous assumption that happiness and peace are states that can be experienced by striving, by effort. The busy mind covers up the peace and the silence that is your own natural state, so if you put the mind in gear and use it to pursue some spiritual goal, you are usually taking it away from the peace, not towards it. This is a hard concept for many people to grasp.
     People found their own inner peace in Sri Ramana's presence because they didn't interfere with the energy that was eradicating their minds, their sense of being a particular person who has ideas, beliefs, and so on. The true practice of Sri Ramana's teachings is remaining quiet, remaining in a state of inner mental quiescence that allows the power of Sri Ramana to seep into your heart and transform you. This can be summarized in one of Sri Ramana's classic comments: 'Just keep quiet. Bhagavan will do the rest.'
     If you use the phrase 'practicing the teachings,' the following sequence is assumed: that Sri Ramana speaks of some goal that has to be attained, that he gives you some route, some practice, to reach that goal, and that you then use your mind to vigorously move towards that goal. The mind wants to be in charge of this operation. It wants to listen to the Guru, understand what is required, and then use itself to move in the prescribed direction. All this is wrong. Mind is not the vehicle one uses to carry out the teachings; it is, instead, the obstacle that prevents one from directly experiencing them. The only useful, productive thing the mind can do is disappear.
     Sri Ramana himself always said that his true teachings were given out in silence. Those who were receptive to them were the ones who could get out of the way mentally, allowing Sri Ramana's silent emanations to work on them. In the benedictory verse to his philosophical poem Ulladu Narpadu Sri Ramana wrote, and I paraphrase a little: 'Who can meditate on that which alone exists. One cannot meditate on it because one is not apart from it. One can only be it.' This is the essence of Sri Ramana's teachings. 'Be what you are and remain as you are without having any thoughts. Don't try to meditate on the Self, on God. Just abide silently at the source of the mind and you will experience that you are God, that you are the Self.'
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2333 on: December 09, 2017, 03:55:06 PM »
Atmavichar,
yes...I recall reading that some years back...wonder how David would answer the question if asked again!...although I appreciate what he says,I do not agree with that in entirety....For one thing it assumes that the 'teaching' is independent of the seeker who seeks to practice that!...that the teachings were only meant for those who sat in Bhagavan's physical presence... that the 'true' teaching was given in silence  and what was spoken were untrue or less than 'true'!...this is clearly untenable.
Perhaps David was emphasizing that the teaching was experiential and not just belief system or a  speculative philosophical system(but then all the philosophical systems and not just advaita were experiential to begin with) ...but it does not accurately represent Bhagavan and his teachings...and it has always been like this right from the Vedic Period  that although the teachings have been primarily experiential and aim to take the seeker beyond 'words and thought'(Yato Vacho Nivartante says the Upanishads) ,the teachings themselves have always been imparted through words...for they are meant for the whole of humanity and not just to a select few and are graded towards meeting the specific  need of the seekers individually and collectively.
Namaskar
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 03:57:01 PM by Ravi.N »

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2334 on: December 10, 2017, 11:57:48 AM »
In every moment you only have one real choice: to be aware of the Self or to identify with the body and the mind.
Annamalai Swami
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2335 on: December 11, 2017, 08:20:57 AM »
Today i.e 11 Dec is the birthday of the great Tamil Poet Sri Subramania Bharati and sharing one of his famous poem which can be used also as a daily prayer to the Lord



Here is the  audio of the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8y6rzgAc94
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:25:07 AM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2336 on: Today at 08:17:31 AM »
CHADWICK'S ENLIGHTENMENT
Once, I asked Chadwick, ?Are you realized?? I have put this question to all of the old devotees like Muruganar, Cohen, Osborne, Sadhu Natanananda, Devaraja Mudaliar and others. None of them either said yes or no - all smiled.
When I asked him whether he was realized, he did not say yes or no. Instead, he told me, ?I will tell you what happened. After many years of my stay with Bhagavan - four or five years, I committed the mistake of trying to evaluate how much I had progressed spiritually. This is a thing any seeker should not do. I felt that I had not progressed.
Many who saw me in Ramanasramam, looked at me like I was a sage or a saint saying, ?Oh! He is so fortunate. He is so close to Bhagavan. He meditates so much. He is already in that state.‟
This created a contradiction in me as I personally felt that I was not progressing spiritually. However, having left the material life I could not go back to a worldly life either. I felt caught between the devil and the deep sea.
I was sorrow-stricken. I ran to Bhagavan's hall. He was alone. I told him, ?Bhagavan, this is my plight. I am neither here nor there and this causes much sorrow in me.‟
Bhagavan looked at me compassionately and said, "Chadwick, who says all this?‟
Immediately, there was a current like shock in my body and I literally ran to my room, shut the doors and went into a neutral state. I was not bothered whether I was spiritually maturing or whether I would be able to stay in the world. I was in a neutral state of silence. A few days passed like that wherein I was neither happy nor worried.?
The only luxury that Chadwick allowed himself was taking his bath in a bathtub which he had in the verandah of his cottage. One day, shortly after the above incident, something happened unexpectedly.
As Chadwick told me later, ?I was taking my bath and very honestly Ganesan, I was not in a spiritual state or in a prayerful mood when it suddenly dawned - the ?I AM‟!?
He experienced it - not just as words. He was so ecstatic that he did not even dry himself. He just wrapped a towel around his waist and ran to the Old Hall from where a few days back he had run away. Fortunately, this time too, Bhagavan was alone. In this spiritual ecstasy of experiencing the ?I AM‟, where there was no Chadwick, just the ?I AM‟, he asked Bhagavan, ?Bhagavan, is
THIS it??
Chadwick recounted, ?Bhagavan gave me the most glorious smile, and then confirmed, ?Yes, Chadwick, THIS is THAT!‟ I then asked him, ?Bhagavan, is it so simple?‟
Bhagavan replied, ?Yes it is that simple.
‟ Since then, I've never had any doubt.?
Ramana Periya Puranam
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nishta

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2337 on: Today at 02:55:16 PM »

Bhagavan looked at me compassionately and said, "Chadwick, who says all this?‟

.....I then asked him, ?Bhagavan, is it so simple?‟
Bhagavan replied, ?Yes it is that simple.




Wonderful! Thank you. A terrific reminder.

srkudai

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2338 on: Today at 03:18:23 PM »
Dear Atmavichar,
             :) This post brought tears to my eyes.

This is one of the rare gems really.

Love!
Silence