Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 335687 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #750 on: September 08, 2013, 09:11:09 AM »
Deepa,
I understand and appreciate what you have posted.

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For that reason, considering my nebulous state of mind, I have decided to stick to bhagawan and Chinmaya mission acharya who I believe is no other than bhagawan!!


Have I said anything different?

This is what Swamiji (Swami Vivekananda) has said:
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One-sidedness is the bane of the world. The more sides you can develop the more souls you have, and you can see the universe through all souls — through the Bhakta (devotee) and the Jnâni (philosopher). Determine your own nature and stick to it. Nishthâ (devotion to one ideal) is the only method for the beginner; but with devotion and sincerity it will lead to all. Churches, doctrines, forms, are the hedges to protect the tender plant, but they must later be broken down that the plant may become a tree. So the various religions, Bibles, Vedas, dogmas — all are just tubs for the little plant; but it must get out of the tub. Nishthâ is, in a manner, placing the plant in the tub, shielding the struggling soul in its path. . .


Here is another saying of his:
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Great saints are the object-lessons of the Principle. But the disciples make the saint the Principle, and then they forget the Principle in the person.

I have only expressed this. :)

Namaskar.

ksksat27

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #751 on: September 08, 2013, 12:39:13 PM »
Ksksat27(Krishna),

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In the other soft corner extreme,  people like you who wants to accept All from Aurobindo to Ramana Maharishee,  all philosophies, all teachings ,  everything without leaving anything.   This group is sweet to all, not fanatic.

Friend,is this not the essence of sanatana Dharma?

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Aano bhadra krtavo yantu vishwatah
"Let noble thoughts come to all from all sides"-Rig Veda

This is what Sri Ramakrishna exemplified.Don't you think that if we adore Sri Ramakrishna,we cannot set aside his life and teachings?One has to be all embracing.Ditto with Sri Bhagavan.
If we get deep into the individual it is the universal.If we get deep into the universal we find the individual(eka jiva).These are complementary.The problem lies not in getting deep.
The 'Nishta' is a very useful aid to get deep and is necessary.Without this depth  It can easily turn into a cult.

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The lesson I learnt is,  stick to one path,  adore all,  read about anybody but please surrender and belong to one place only.

This is perfectly okay.Did you recommend this in your post?Please review your post and validate :)

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I think , even though you may not agree you belong to Thakur Ramakrishna paramahamsa.  You are under his spell of love and devotion and He will protect you. I recollect a train incident you quoted where the sadhu told you the same thing. If you go to Ramakrishna math, you will attain

I recall the 'Train Incident' I have posted.It is to Highlight that The 'Guru' will be with you.It is to say that the Sadhu was made to Retract his statement.I was anyway going to 'Ramakrishna Mutt' without his saying.I generally do not share any personal stories ,except what can be shared in a general way and which may interest others.

Namaskar.

Sir

I request only to share what can be shared  :)

It is always soothing to read first hand account of a devotee meeting a great sage.  And you have in your list Anandamayi Ma and Kanchi Paramacharya (Annamalai Swami I had you spoken about him from your very sweet words directly so i am not quoting)

So if possible , start a blog and write your first hand account ,  it is very common,  like Fragrant Petals book is there for Ramana Maharishi.

The best thing you did was,  you took pains to travel, search and find great Mahatmas.  I think you were very fortunate to have that oppurtunity , probably it was their in your script to meet these great saints.

ksksat27

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #752 on: September 08, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »
Dear Ravi sir,

"The 'Nishta' is a very useful aid to get deep and is necessary.Without this depth  It can easily turn into a cult."

I think atleast on the philosphical point of view, one must choose what path appeals to him most.

You cannot accept duality and advaita both at one point. (ofcourse advaita will allow all schools of thought within it but when you go to a dvaita and say I agree with both Ramanujacharya and Shankara ,  that will be totally confusing to everybody)

Aurobindo's philosophy is entirely different  --  we can worship him but at a time we can either take Bhagavan Ramana's viewpoint or Aurobindo's.

Atleast from that level, one should identify to which philosophy he is attracted most.

Be it advaita or dvaita or whatever -- but one must come to a conclusion.

I think you are very sensitivie to labelling and cult.  But a cult of a Guru is necessary for focus of mind.  One should label and belong to one place, like Kunju Swami being a representative of Bhagavan Ramana.

Be it Aurobindo or Ramarkishna or Madhvacharya or Ramunja their words wil always be nectar , seet and aimed at uplifiting.

But beyond a point sadhaka must arrive at some conclusion as to what appeals to him most. that is not fanatic,  he must stick to it and follow it throughout.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #753 on: September 08, 2013, 02:25:38 PM »
ksksat27,

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But beyond a point sadhaka must arrive at some conclusion as to what appeals to him most. that is not fanatic,  he must stick to it and follow it throughout.

To the contrary,a sadhaka must give up the need to come to 'conclusion' -as all such conclusions are inventions of the mind.He knows that there is no such a thing as 'conclusion' :)

This is illustrated in Sri Ramakrishna's parable of The Dyer and the Tub:

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"A certain man had a tub. People would come to him to have their clothes dyed. The tub contained a solution of dye. Whatever colour a man wanted for his cloth, he would get by dipping the cloth in the tub. One man was amazed to see this and said to the dyer, 'Please give me the dye you have in your tub.'

He does not bother about this or that  'Philosophy'.

True, one has to hold onto a 'seed inspiration' and trust that it will lead him to where it leads (God,Guru).One then offers  in the spirit of 'Kayena vacha manas indriyairva Buddhi atmanavath prakrutey svabhavath karOmi yat yat sakalam parasmai sriman narayana yeti samarpayami.

He or she travels lightly.When one walks in peace and Love -one knows clearly that the path is valid.This path itself is the Destination as well.

Namaskar.


Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #754 on: September 08, 2013, 02:29:40 PM »
Quote
By the way,if one is doing self enquiry and fulltime at that-why should he or she identify thinking-'I am a Westerner.This message is malicious and Rude'.It should be precisely here that Self enquiry needs to be there! :)

Dear Sri Ravi,

Again,this is something which only Sri Nagaraj can understand,coz it was ment for him,again.

Most important thing,go through the posts and You will see that that "malicious and Rude" is something i said to You Sir,when You commented to Sri Atmavichar how can everybody these days thinks he can practice self inquiry. Dont put some words in my mouth please,which i did not said. To Sri Nagaraj i said something completely different. The reason why i said it also,it was ment for Sri Nagaraj only.

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Assuredly.It is we who need to Realize that we are The Brahman.If not ,the next best thing is to be their Devotees.To be a servant of man is a dismal thing(and we have no qualms about it when we are in employment!)but to be a servant of God is a wonderful thing.Every devotee,including you knows and appreciate this.Where then is the problem,except that we are imagining all this and heaping misery on us. :)

I already am servant. My self inquiry is service to my Guru. I dont think He needs any other. But there would be no servant I left in a way of little ego left just for my Guru. That is silly,coz that would be only ego intention to survive,on account of playing servant. I am servant so long i take myself apart from the Whole,after it,there is no service.

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Sri Ravi, You turn this like bhakti jnana war,when actually,it is not,but my general" disagreement with Your presentation and view of bhakti.

All else what is my conclusion is general impression i got. Coz You Sir,seem to think that people who practice self inquiry or threading the path of knowledge,are heartless people without love and bhakti. Which is something not true. And You seem to know better then me can i practice self inquiry. I did not liked that. I am not a Sage,so i dont like many things.

With love and prayers,
 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 02:34:02 PM by Jewell »

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #755 on: September 08, 2013, 02:35:43 PM »
jewell,
I have read your post.I wish you the very best.Please take what you feel  is useful or relevant and ignore what you feel is misplaced or confusing.
Namaskar.

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #756 on: September 08, 2013, 02:51:57 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

I just wish to say that i respect You Sir,and consider You for a friend here.

With love and prayers,

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #757 on: September 08, 2013, 03:59:46 PM »
Jewell/Friends,
I understand friend.This is a spiritual Forum and not a social one.It is for this reason that we have these exchanges in a candid way.Sometimes we may have to stretch ourselves even at the risk of being misunderstood.If we have genuine Love we remain unaffected for there is nothing to gain by way of praise and nothing to lose by way of blame.
This is just to clarify that I have nothing against self-enquiry or practitioners of the same.It is to say that this requires tremendous commitment, Equanimity and spirit of Renunciation(inner one) -I have only shared this in  a general way.It was not meant for anyone in particular.It is to say that all the auxiliary practices are also very helpful and prepare the mind and aid in sadhana.This has been the traditional view.It is not as if Sri Bhagavan was opposed to this view.Here is an excerpt from 'The Letters from Sri Ramanasramam':

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The devotee: “According to the material world, we have to say, ‘this is mine’, must we not?”
“Yes, indeed,” replied Bhagavan, “we have to say so. By merely saying so, however, there is no need to think that we are all that, and get immersed in the pleasures and
sorrows relating to that. When we ride in a carriage, do we feel that we are the carriage? Take the example of the sun; it shines in water in a small pot, in big rivers and in a mirror. Its image is there. But just because of that, does it think that it is all that? The same thing with us. All the trouble arises if one thinks one is the body. If one rejects that thought, then, like the sun, one will shine everywhere and be all-pervading.”

This is what we are quite familiar and we seem to understand this as well.Yet what is the Magnitutude of this is omething we need to be aware as well.We are not saying this to discourage or dispirit anyone.It is to come to grips with what it entails.

This is how the above conversation continues:

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The devotee: “It is for that, is it not, that Bhagavan says that the best thing to do is to follow the path of Self-enquiry of ‘Who am I’?”

Bhagavan: “Yes; but in the Vasishtam it is mentioned that Vasishta told Rama that the path of Self-enquiry should not be shown to anyone who is not sufficiently qualified. In some other books it has been stated that spiritual practices should be done for several births, or for at least twelve years under a Guru. As people would be scared away if I said that spiritual practices had to be done for several births, I tell them, ‘You have liberation already within you; you have merely to rid yourselves of exterior things that have come upon you’. Spiritual practices are for that alone. Even so, the Ancients have not said all this for nothing. If a person is told that he is the Godhead, Brahman itself, and that he is already liberated, he may not do any spiritual practices, thinking that he already has that which is required and does not want anything more. That is why these Vedantic matters should not be told to spiritually undeveloped people (anadhikaris); there is no other reason.” And Bhagavan smiled.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed.The Earnest sadhaka will realize the magnitude of this and yet will proceed with earnestness and quiet courage.He will weed out whatever he finds is tieing him down by way of attachment,by way of shame,hatred,jealousy,pride,lust-the various avatars of the ego!self enquiry is the direct path that challenges the hold of the ego sense in a head on frontal fashion by questioning its unreality in a bold forthright fashion,here and now.

It is the same with the path of self surrender as well.It is not as if there is a concession to the designs of the Ego in that path as well;Only that in the path of surrender,a seeker accepts all the auxiliary practices  much more readily.Yet,these are just two expressions of the same thing.

I have been sharing in this spirit-Generally I avoid my 'interpretations' and just offer the Teachings of The Great ones-in the fond wish that it will be of use to someone.I do not know who and where that person is.

This is the reason that I am spending time here or elsewhere.I am here today.I never think about tomorrow.I consider myself only a casual visitor here. This is how it is. :)

Namaskar.

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #758 on: September 08, 2013, 04:39:34 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Very well Sir. I already said so many times that those practices and service are something very interrelated with any practice. All who do self inquiry,also do all sorts of things,and doing service to ones family,or place of work,or what ever. All worship in the way God decided for them,and in which circumstances He puts them. Formal worship is not only worship. And some people tend to think this,and see something like judging,when actually they are judging,not knowing others people lives. But,i think this is going in both ways,the picture we all see is only mind picture,therefor very limited indeed. I put myself in that category too.

Like i have said,that is something individual,and certainly not needed for each one of us,and very needed for some. Again,i never said anything against it,that was just that one situation,very unique,which i commented. I said it to one developed person,according to my understanding. And i commented some advanced stage,not for all seekers.

All is truly,truly very individual,and all know what they should do i guess.

Well,it is very hard to write and in this way to explain some thoughts. It would be much easiesr if we can see each other,coz then,we can see our true reactions,expressions of the face,pointing on the real meaning of the thoughts. Like this,we are bound to misunderstand each other.

Like i said,i have a high respect of You Sir,and Your knowledge! Deeply,there is no hard feelings. Only momentary. :) I have my view,and this is it.

With love and prayers,

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #759 on: September 08, 2013, 10:22:19 PM »
Friends,
I will wade for a little while on this touchy subject-The Guru.Are there devotees of sri bhagavan who took guidance from other Gurus(in flesh and blood).
We already have seen how sri v ganesan taking guidance from mataji Krishnabai and it was none other than the great devotee TKS who sent him there.This story is well known and is narrated in the book 'Human Gospel of Ramana Maharshi'
Most devotees of Bhagavan will be familiar with the devotee couple of Sri Bhagavan-smt Sulochana Natarajan(who is the founder of the Ramananjali music group)and Sri A R Natarajan ,who founded The Ramana centre of learning.Both were Devotees of Bhagavan and had had his darshan.After Sri Bhagavan's passing away ,they both took initiation (Mantra Deeksha) from Swami Yatiswarananda ,disciple of Swami Brahmananda.Swami Brahmananda alias Rakhal Maharaj was a direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna.This happened in 1952.The Natarajans devotion to Sri Bhagavan is well known and
Their taking Swami Yatiswarananda as their Guru did not Come in the way of their Devotion to Sri Bhagavan.They were also devoted to Sringeri Acharya.(source-smt Ambika Kameswaran,daughter of the Natarajans speaking at the youth convention ,175 th Birth centenary of Sri Ramakrishna,venue:Sri Ramakrishna Mutt,Mylapore,Chennai on 26 02 2012)
We Know that Sri Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni had darshan of Sri Aurobindo and The Mother.This was when Sri Bhagavan was at Tiruvannamalai in Flesh and Blood.
We also know that S S Cohen visited Swami Ramdas and spent 7 Months at Anandashram During Bhagavan's lifetime.He acknowledged the benefit of such an association.Yet he always considered Sri Bhagavan as his Guru and remained devoted to him.

We will likewise find how Disciples of Sri Aurobindo like Sri Dilip Kumar Roy and Sri Doraisamy Iyengar did visit Sri Bhagavan and benefitted by it.Sri D K Roy also used to visit Papa Ramdas as well and has gratefully acknowledged this.Yet they remained disciples of Sri Aurobindo .

This is how it is .All these devotees stuck to the line of sadhana chalked out by the Guru and yet took a flexible approach.
Ofcourse,there always were detractors like how Sri Ganesan mentioned about TKS-how he was talked about by others in Ramanasramam when he asked Ganesan to prostrate to other saints and elders.
So were the ones in Sri Aurobindo Ashram when Sri D K Roy visited Sri Bhagavan.
We may take suitable lessons from this as we deem fit.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #760 on: September 08, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »
Friends,
Wish to share this excerpt from 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam':

26th January, 1946 (30) ANGER
Yesterday a newly arrived Andhra youth told Bhagavan about the vagaries of his senses to which Bhagavan said, “All that is due to the mind. Set it right.” “That is all right, Swami, but however much I try to reduce this anger, it comes on again and again. What shall I do?” said the poor boy.
“Oh! Is that so, then get angry with that anger; it will be all right” said Bhagavan. All people in the hall burst out laughing. A person who gets angry with everything in the
world, if only he introspects, and enquires why he does not get angry with his anger itself, will he not really overcome all anger?
Two or three years back a devotee who could freely approach Bhagavan came and told him five or six times that somebody had been abusing him. Bhagavan listened but said nothing. As there was no response from Bhagavan in spite of repeated and varied complaints and in a number of ways, this devotee could not contain himself any longer and so said, “When I am abused so much unnecessarily, I also get angry. However much I try to restrain my anger I am not able to do so. What shall I do?”
Bhagavan laughingly said, “What should you do? You too join him and abuse yourself; then it will be all right.” All laughed.
That devotee, unable to understand anything, said
“That is very good! Should I abuse myself?” “Yes indeed! What they are abusing is your body, isn’t it? What greater enemy is there than this body which is the abode of anger and similar feelings? It is necessary that we ourselves should hate it. Instead of that, when we are unguarded, if anybody abuses us, we should know that they
are waking us up. We should realise at least then, and join them in abusing the body, and crying it down. What is the use of counter-abuse? Those who abuse us that way should be looked upon as our friends. It is good for us to be among such people. If you are among people who praise you, you get deceived,” said Bhagavan.

This is something that all spiritual aspirants should grasp and put into practice.Whenever there are such situations in the course of interactions with others-the aspirant can make use of it as a  free Laundry service. :)
Try it and validate the immense benefit.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #761 on: September 09, 2013, 08:06:22 AM »
:)
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #762 on: September 09, 2013, 12:25:05 PM »
Friends,
In this post ,I wish to share the principle and philosophical sense behind the multiple forms of God in sanatana Dharma.I will not  take a scholarly approach,not being one.I will approach this in a simple way so that we can make sense and relate to our Sadhana.We know ,as individuals what a diversity there is-each one come from a certain background and with our own predelictions.When we approach the Spiritual Truth-The One that is behind all appearances and objects,that has brought forth us and the world and universe that we live in and yet is beyond it-this poses a challenge.How to make this graspable by the limited and conditioned,infantile human mind.We certainly need,like in any other field of study or vocation only much more so here,a teacher or teaching that can teach us and guide us.We have the Vedas ,Upanishads that are Srutis(Revelatory Principles of This Truth);we have the smrutis that deal with the application and definitive practice of the principles in the Srutis.These are ,so to say elaborations of the Srutis and application in a derived form,the foremost being Ramayana and mahabharata-central to the Mahabharata is the Bhagavad Gita as expounded by Lord Sri Krishna to Arjuna at a moment of his spiritual crisis.We also have the puranas that incorporate the Truth principle in a tangible way and expounds it as a sugar coated pill-in the form of Mythological stories and happenings in the various places spread over the length and breadth of the country.These puranas included not just animate forms from Humans,animals,birds and Trees but also included inanimate things such as Mountains,Rivers, all pieced together to project the basic principle that Truth manifest in a tangible form as all these.In this way ,each and every type of individual is made aware that he is related to everything else in this world in a deep way.The Smrutis also laid down the Dharma aspects in terms of family Relationships and associated Duties,extending it to Society and state organizing it into groups with distinct  Vocations and division of labour -Maximized for Synergy between the groups and also balancing the Individual and the Collective aspects of Living.
This is just a broad view of the evolution and Organization of sanatana Dharma-and we need not delve deeper into it than necessary for the moment.We may straight way get to the point that this Tangible way of representing Truth or God took a few basic Forms and variations of these forms.
It is said that Sri adi sankara brought about this narrowing it down to Shanmadha (6 fold forms of worship) comprising Worship ofShiva,Devi,Vishnu,Ganapathi,Subramanya and sun God-each one with its associated set of auspicious qualities of Wisdom ,Love and Shakti.

Continued...

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #763 on: September 09, 2013, 05:27:39 PM »
Quote
We need to only be concerned whether we are helped,
whether we are getting the clarity-This is all that one can be sure of.
This is all that matters.

Sri Ravi, again some random thoughts... Else where you had expressed this. This is sole purpose of a Guru, be it internal or external and whether internal or external, how does it matter? i believe in my own little way, what Bhagavan meant when he said that true Guru is within, is the wisdom, is the nature of wiling to be helped! This nature is broadly known as 'wisdom'

As He further said, this nature of being helped purely depends on ourselves, if we go with small cup, we get only cup full but if we go with bigger ones, we get that much, and he revealed that it is entirely upto us and there is no use complaining the niggardliness of the ocean!

once, one has tapped into this nature, this wisdom, what matters if the Guru is within or without, for him the whole universe becomes the Guru. The Guru is neither within or without.

That Guru is the wisdom, our nature to be willing to be helped or merge.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ksksat27

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #764 on: September 09, 2013, 07:29:58 PM »
Friends,
I will wade for a little while on this touchy subject-The Guru.Are there devotees of sri bhagavan who took guidance from other Gurus(in flesh and blood).
We already have seen how sri v ganesan taking guidance from mataji Krishnabai and it was none other than the great devotee TKS who sent him there.This story is well known and is narrated in the book 'Human Gospel of Ramana Maharshi'
Most devotees of Bhagavan will be familiar with the devotee couple of Sri Bhagavan-smt Sulochana Natarajan(who is the founder of the Ramananjali music group)and Sri A R Natarajan ,who founded The Ramana centre of learning.Both were Devotees of Bhagavan and had had his darshan.After Sri Bhagavan's passing away ,they both took initiation (Mantra Deeksha) from Swami Yatiswarananda ,disciple of Swami Brahmananda.Swami Brahmananda alias Rakhal Maharaj was a direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna.This happened in 1952.The Natarajans devotion to Sri Bhagavan is well known and
Their taking Swami Yatiswarananda as their Guru did not Come in the way of their Devotion to Sri Bhagavan.They were also devoted to Sringeri Acharya.(source-smt Ambika Kameswaran,daughter of the Natarajans speaking at the youth convention ,175 th Birth centenary of Sri Ramakrishna,venue:Sri Ramakrishna Mutt,Mylapore,Chennai on 26 02 2012)
We Know that Sri Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni had darshan of Sri Aurobindo and The Mother.This was when Sri Bhagavan was at Tiruvannamalai in Flesh and Blood.
We also know that S S Cohen visited Swami Ramdas and spent 7 Months at Anandashram During Bhagavan's lifetime.He acknowledged the benefit of such an association.Yet he always considered Sri Bhagavan as his Guru and remained devoted to him.

We will likewise find how Disciples of Sri Aurobindo like Sri Dilip Kumar Roy and Sri Doraisamy Iyengar did visit Sri Bhagavan and benefitted by it.Sri D K Roy also used to visit Papa Ramdas as well and has gratefully acknowledged this.Yet they remained disciples of Sri Aurobindo .

This is how it is .All these devotees stuck to the line of sadhana chalked out by the Guru and yet took a flexible approach.
Ofcourse,there always were detractors like how Sri Ganesan mentioned about TKS-how he was talked about by others in Ramanasramam when he asked Ganesan to prostrate to other saints and elders.
So were the ones in Sri Aurobindo Ashram when Sri D K Roy visited Sri Bhagavan.
We may take suitable lessons from this as we deem fit.

Namaskar

I think we all want to read and enjoy other saint's works,  darshan experiences of devotees and we all also want to see an exalted saint in flesh and blood .  There is nothing wrong in this.

What is though required is complete focus and coming again and again to Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi after our round about trip . 

We cannot follow all paths at once,  we will simply get confused.  So better to stay with Bhagavan as long as possible and in relaxation , it is good to visit other saints and sages.

Further ,  we should also have one philosophy like Sri Ramana's pure Advaitic Self abidance as our goal.  I think if we say I agree with both Sri Ramana and Sri Aurobindo,  that will start confusions in our mind, because both taught different philosophies.

Turing ocassionally to any other philosophy based Guru is beneficial but just for the sake of 'Integrated attitude' we cannot force ourselves to claim to follow everybody at the same time.
But this need not mean one cannot visit those saints to get the blessings.

I think our inner Heart will guide us in these matters than any number of other people like me.

Same applies to the balance between self enquiry and self surrender --  i think one has to do both unless one is very sincere and dedicated aspirant.

as Ravi Sir said long before " to bang the ego from both sides"