Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 314652 times)

Hari

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #720 on: September 01, 2013, 04:54:27 PM »
The fact that many of the fasting people are hypocrites is another matter. It has nothing to do with the fasting. It is the same to say that if there are ill people then all people are ill. We talked about the Ekadashi itself and you from nowhere putted about hypocrisy. :D The fasting people like everyone else can be hypocrites, murderers, lairs, adulterers and so on. :)
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atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #721 on: September 01, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »
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atmavichar(Krishna),
The Interesting thing is that almost everyone thinks that he is fit for exclusive self-enquiry

Dear Ravi

I leave it to the respective individuals to evaluate themselves whether they are fit exclusively for self enquiry or not . According to Bhagavan Ramana and Annamalai Swamy they both prefer sadhaks to  focus on the direct path of self enquiry from the start and put  all their energies in that direction . For such people only religious rules and regulations come secondary . Even then Bhagavn out of supreme compassion did not disturb those who were following such practices like in the case of Kanakammal and KunjuSwami ( I have given their examples in the other thread on Ekadasi ) and they themselves dropped it seeing the futility of the same especially in the direct presence of Bhagavan .
But we need to understand that both Kanakammal and Kunjuswami were full time sadhaks , totally surrendered to Bhagavan and had the blessings of his direct physical presence while pursuing their sadhana .

However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #722 on: September 01, 2013, 05:04:15 PM »
The fact that many of the fasting people are hypocrites is another matter. It has nothing to do with the fasting. It is the same to say that if there are ill people then all people are ill. We talked about the Ekadashi itself and you from nowhere putted about hypocrisy. :D The fasting people like everyone else can be hypocrites, murderers, lairs, adulterers and so on. :)

Dear Hari,

Yes,that is the fact. Like also,that which i said from the very beginning,in other thread,which does not have anything to do with anything which is said here.

With love and prayers,

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #723 on: September 01, 2013, 05:08:27 PM »
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atmavichar(Krishna),
The Interesting thing is that almost everyone thinks that he is fit for exclusive self-enquiry

Dear Ravi

I leave it to the respective individuals to evaluate themselves whether they are fit exclusively for self enquiry or not . According to Bhagavan Ramana and Annamalai Swamy they both prefer sadhaks to  focus on the direct path of self enquiry from the start and put  all their energies in that direction . For such people only religious rules and regulations come secondary . Even then Bhagavn out of supreme compassion did not disturb those who were following such practices like in the case of Kanakammal and KunjuSwami ( I have given their examples in the other thread on Ekadasi ) and they themselves dropped it seeing the futility of the same especially in the direct presence of Bhagavan .
But we need to understand that both Kanakammal and Kunjuswami were full time sadhaks , totally surrendered to Bhagavan and had the blessings of his direct physical presence while pursuing their sadhana .

Dear Sri Atmavichar,

I fully agree with You! We are aware very well what Bhagavan said about these matters,even more,what is the real essence of His teaching. And You so well summed up  everything.

With love and prayers,

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #724 on: September 01, 2013, 05:15:28 PM »
Krishna(Atmavichar),
I would emphasize the 'Exclusive' word in that sentence.Please note Sri Annamalai Swami had to go through a Grueling period of preparation(years)and it is not as if he was put on the Direct path of Self -Enquiry at once.All these devotees of Sri Bhagavan had the benefit of being under the direct supervision of Sri Bhagavan and the benefit of such a training cannot be substituted by any other Practice.
Upasana and self-enquiry go together and sri Bhagavan has in his nAn YAr clearly advocated this.I would recommend Sri Nochur Venkatraman's excellent talk on Sri Bhagavan's nAn yAr that clearly brings out this aspect.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #725 on: September 01, 2013, 05:24:40 PM »
Friends,
Sri Bhagavan's Appal song puts everything in proper perspective:

Appalappaattu

Appalam Ittu paaru (Refrain)

Try your hand fashioning  appalam-
That you may eat and  your desire fulfill.

Not hanker and  wander in this world -
To abide by that one word Peerless;
The Tatva unspokenly spoken by the  Satguru –
Who is  Truth Consciousness Bliss.                                                (Refrain-appalam ittu paaru)

Charanam 1

In the Five Kosha Field that is not oneself
Grows the Grained Black Gram, the ego-self;
Pulverize and grind it  fine as Not 'I'                             
In the Jnana vichara quern of who am I                                         (Refrain-appalam ittu paaru)

Charanam 2

Mix (the Flour) with The pirandai juice of Satsangha,
cummin seed and Black pepper of  sama  Dama
Along with the Salt of uparathi and Asafoetida,
The Good vasana of mind ( knead into Dough)….                           
(Refrain-Appalam ittu paaru)

Charanam 3

In the stone mortar of the heart -with mind Inly as pestle
Relentlessly pound(the Dough)  as ‘I’ ‘I’  unwaveringly;
And on the plank of samam, with the Rolling pin of Shantam
(Flatten it)Without tiring , ever  with good cheer ....                       (Refrain-Appalam ittu paaru)

Charanam 4

In the Infinite Frying pan of Mauna Mudra
Heated by Jnana  fire -The Pure Ghee of Brahman;
In this, Deep Fry the ‘I’ as ‘That’
To Revel Forever - The Self as The Self.... This Tanmaya                (Refrain-Appalam ittu paaru)

The whole of the Practice is here.All the Necessary Ingredients are clearly delineated by Sri Bhagavan.This is what is emphasized by all the Acharyas as well.Without the necessary Ingredients of 'Sama' and 'Dama' where is the effectiveness of self-enquiry as a practice?
The Temporary fasting and all other disciplines are essentially part of 'Sama' and 'Dama'.There is no contradiction or confusion in this.It is also true that the more one practices Self-enquiry,the more and more the sama and dama will be effective.These go hand in Hand.They are the 'Outer' and 'Inner' aspects.

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #726 on: September 01, 2013, 05:26:51 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Once a blind young Muslim boy came to see Sri Bhagavan, all the way from Peshawar, now in Pakistan.  He knew only
Urdu and English.  He asked some sensible questions and Sri Bhagavan replied to him with a lot of compassion.  When
he was leaving, the Asramam authorities offered some more books of Bhagavan, other than Nan Yar in English.  He said:
I do not want.  This book is enough for me.

Nan Yar is the quintessence of Sri Bhagavan's teachings.  All the other works like Upadesa Undiyar, Ulladu Narpadu etc.,
are only commentaries on that single small booklet.

Nochur Venkataraman used to say: Please daily read Nan Yar once, along with Dasa Sloki of Sri Sankara.  That will be the
best sadhana.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #727 on: September 01, 2013, 05:39:46 PM »
Subramanian,
Yes indeed.nAn yAr has everything that a seeker needs and if one devotes oneself wholly in understanding and putting it into Practice,nothing more is required.Sri Bhagavan has covered everything comprehensively.It is so compressed that every sentence is as important as any other sentence.The more one reads this,the more and more one will find the comprehensiveness of the approach.
Sri Nochur says beautifully-'Other books,one has to read from cover to cover;but this book,it is enough to read what is printed on the Front cover!'(the Title itself is enough-'nAn yAr'?
Ofcourse,it does require a ripe mind to do so!
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #728 on: September 02, 2013, 10:47:55 AM »
Dear Friends,

It is no doubt, for one who has transcended the body consciousness and there has resulted a complete vasanaakshayam, no rules are applicable, such person verily moves like a dry leaf without any course. What can be told of such an exalted person!!!

But, what is important is to be at bay, like Master has said, it is always best to be the servant 'I'


The "servant I"

MASTER: "It is true that one or two can get rid of the 'I' through samadhi; but these cases are very rare. You may indulge in thousands of reasonings, but still the 'I' comes back. You may cut the peepal-tree to the very root today, but you will notice a sprout springing up tomorrow. Therefore if the 'I' must remain, let the rascal remain as the 'servant I'. As long as you live, you should say, 'O God, Thou art the Master and I am Thy servant.' The 'I' that feels, 'I am the servant of God, I am His devotee' does not injure one. Sweet things cause acidity of the stomach, no doubt, but sugar candy is an exception.

"The path of knowledge is very difficult. One cannot obtain Knowledge unless one gets rid of the feeling that one is the body. In the Kaliyuga the life of man is centred on food. He cannot get rid of the feeling that he is the body and the ego. Therefore the path of devotion is prescribed for this cycle. This is an easy path. You will attain God if you sing His name and glories and pray to Him with a longing heart. There is not the least doubt about it. "Suppose you draw a line on the surface of water with a bamboo stick. The water appears to be divided into two parts; but the line doesn't remain for any length of time. The 'servant I'or the 'devotee I' or the 'child I' is only a line drawn with the ego and is not real".


All these feelings that 'i' have now gone deep into self enquiry, and hence do not require to do any other things are all dangerous line of thoughts to nurture for an aspirant. Bhagavan himself was a Nithya-Upasaki, he had his routine, his own, he set highest examples, and got himself involved very meticulously in matters of importance, he is even said to have initiated Ganapaty muni, he has inadvertently initiated his childhood mate Pokkiri Raja in Shiva nama Japa, many others with Rama nama etc...

It is not even Upasana, the line of thoughts, that nothing is required is dangerous. But, we must question ourselves, should we be left around for a couple of days without food, shelter and money, then we would be able to see our true selves, as to where we stand.

we are not even ready to renounce anything, mostly we are comfortable placed, and hide these in the garb that only mental renunciation is required and that physically one need not renounce anything. Here i am reminded one incident from Sai Sat Charitra.

Quick Brahma-gyan

There was a rich gentleman (unfortunately his name and whereabouts are not mentioned), who was very prosperous in his life. He had amassed a large quantity of wealth, houses, and lands, and had many servants and dependents. When Baba’s fame reached his ears he said to a friend of his that he was not in want of anything, and so, he would go to Shirdi and ask Baba to give him Brahma-gyan, which if he got, would certainly make him more happy. His friend dissuaded him, saying, “It is not easy to know Brahma and especially so  for an avaricious man like you, who is always engrossed in wealth, wife and children. Who will in your quest of Brahma-gyan satisfy you, who does not give away even a paisa in charity?”

saw Sai Baba, fell at His Feet and said, “Baba, hearing that, You show Brahma to all who come to you, I too have come here all the way from my distant place. I am much fatigued by the journey and if I get Brahma-gyan from You, my troubles will be well-paid and rewarded.” Baba, then, replied, “Oh, My dear friend do not be anxious, I shall show you Brahma. Many people come to Me and ask for wealth, health, power, honour, position, cure of diseases and other temporal matters. Rare is the person who comes to Me and asks for Brahma-gyan. There is no dearth of people asking for worldly things but people interested in spiritual matters are very rare, I think, it is a fortunate and auspicious moment, when persons like you, come and ask Me for Brahma-gyan. So forthwith, I show to you with pleasure, Brahma, with all its accompaniments and complexities.”

Saying this, Baba started to show him Brahma. He made him sit there and engaged him in some other talk and thus, made him forget his question for the time-being. Then He called a boy and told him to go to one Nandu Marwadi and get from him a loan of Rs. Five. The boy left and returned immediately, saying that Nandu was absent and his house was locked. Then, Baba asked him to go to Bala grocer and get from him the said loan. This time also the boy was unsuccessful. This experiment was repeated again twice or thrice, with the same result. Sai Baba was, as we know, the living and moving Brahma Incarnate. Then, some-one may ask, “Why did He want the paltry sum of five rupees, and why did He try hard to get it? In reality He did not want this sum at all. He must have known fully that Nandu and Bala were absent, and He seemed to have adopted this procedure as a test for the seeker of Brahma. That gentleman had a roll or bundle of currency notes in his pocket and if he was really earnest, he would not have sat quiet and be a mere onlooker when Baba was frantically trying to get a paltry sum of Rs. five. He knew that Baba would keep His word and repay the debt, and that the sum wanted was insignificant.

Still he could not make up his mind and advance the sum. Such a man wanted from Baba, the greatest thing in the world, viz. the Brahma-gyan! Any other man who really loved Baba would have given to him Rs. five at once, instead of being a mere onlooker. It was otherwise with this man.

He advanced no money nor did he sit silent but began to be impatient, as he was in a haste to return and implored Baba, saying. “Oh Baba, please, give me Brahma-gnyan soon!” Baba replied, “Oh my dear friend did you not understand all the procedure that I went through, sitting in this place, for enabling you to see Brahma? It is in short this : For seeing Brahma, one has to give five things, i.e., surrender five things, viz. (1) five Pranas (vital forces), (2) five senses, (3) mind, (4) intellect and (5) ego. This path of Brahma-gyan or self-realization is as hard as treading on the edge of a razor.

Sai Baba then gave a rather long discourse on the subject, the purport of which, is given below :

Qualifications for Brahma-gyan or Self-realization:

All persons do not see or realize the Brahma in their life-time. Certain qualifications are absolutely necessary.

1. Mumukshu or intense desire to get free. He who thinks that, he is bound and that, he should get free from bondage and works earnestly and resolutely to that end and does not care for any other thing, is qualified for the spiritual life.

2. Virakti or a feeling of non-attachment with the things of this world and the next. Unless a man feels disgusted with the things, emoluments and honours, which his actions would bring in this world and the next, he has no right to enter into the spiritual realm.

3. Antarmukha (introversion) Our senses have been created by God with a tendency to move outward and so, man always looks outward and not inward. He, who wants self-realization and immortal life, must turn his gaze inwards
and look to his inner self.

4. Catharsis – (eliminating all base ideas and emotions) – Unless a man has turned away from wickedness and stopped from doing wrong, and has entirely composed himself, and unless his mind is at rest, he cannot gain selfrealization even by means of knowledge.

5. Right conduct – Unless a man leads a life of truth, penance and insight, a life of celibacy, he cannot get Godrealization.

6. Preferring Shreyas (the good), to Preyas (the pleasant) – There are two sorts of things, viz. the good and the pleasant; the former deals with spiritual affairs, and the latter with mundane matters. Both these are open to man for acceptance. He has to think and choose one of them. The wise man prefers the good to the pleasant, but the unwise, through greed and attachment chooses the pleasant.

7. Control of the mind and the senses – The body is the chariot and the self is its master, intellect is the charioteer and the mind is the reins, the senses are the horses and sense-objects are their paths. He who has no understanding and whose mind is unrestrained, has his senses unmanageable, like the stray horse of a charioteer, does not reach his destination (get self realization), but goes through the round of births and deaths; but he who has understanding and whose mind is restrained, has his senses under control, like the good obedient horse of a charioteer, reaches the destination, i.e. the state of self-realization, whence he is not born again. The man, who has understanding as his charioteer (guide) and is able to rein his mind, reaches the end of the journey, which is the supreme abode of the all-pervading, Vishnu (Lord).

8. Purification of the mind – Unless a man discharges satisfactorily and dis-interestedly the duties of his station in life, his mind will not be purified and unless his mind is purified, he cannot get self-realization. It is only in the purified mind that, Vivek (dis-attachment to the unreal) crop up and lead on to self-realization. Unless egoism is dropped, avarice got rid of and the mind made desire less (pure), self-realization is not possible. The idea that “I am the body” is a great delusion and attachment to this idea is the cause of bondage. Leave off this idea and attachment therefore, if you want to reach the goal of self-realization.

9. The necessity of a Guru – The knowledge of the self is so subtle and mystic that, no one can, by his own individual effort ever hope to attain it. So the help of another person – teacher, who has himself got selfrealization, is absolutely necessary. What others cannot give with great effort and pains, can be easily gained with the help of such a teacher; for he has walked on the path himself and can easily take the disciple, step by step on the ladder of spiritual progress.

10. And lastly, grace of the Lord is the most essential thing. When the Lord is pleased with any body, He gives him Viveka and Vairagya and takes him safe beyond the ocean of mundane existence, “The Self cannot be gained by the study of Vedas, nor by intellect, nor by learning. He whom the Self chooses, gains it. To him the Self reveals its nature,” says the Katha Upanishad.

After the dissertation was over, Baba turned to the gentleman and said, “Well sir, there is in your pocket the Brahma in form of fifty- times of five (Rs. 250/-) rupees, please, take that out.” The gentleman took out from his pocket the bundle of currency notes, and to his great surprise, found on counting them, that, there were 25 notes of 10 rupees each. Seeing this omniscience of Baba, he was moved and fell at Baba’s Feet and craved for His blessings. Then Baba said to him, “Roll up your bundle of Brahma, viz. currency notes. Unless, you completely get rid of your avarice or greed you will not get the real Brahma. How can he whose mind is engrossed in wealth, progeny and prosperity, expect to know the Brahma without removing his attachment for them? The illusion of attachment or the love for money is a deep eddy (whirlpool) of pain, full of crocodiles in the form of conceit and jealousy. He who is desire less, can alone cross this whirlpool. Greed and Brahma are asunder as poles, they are eternally opposed to each other. Where there is greed there is no room for thought or meditation of the Brahma. Then how can a greedy man, get dispassion and salvation? For a greedy man there is no peace, neither contentment, nor steadiness. If there be even a little trace of greed in mind, all the Sadhanas (spiritual endeavors) are of no avail. Even the knowledge of a wellread man, who is not free from the desire of the fruit or reward of his actions, is futile and can’t help him in getting selfrealization. The teachings of a Guru are of no use to a man who is full of egoism and who always thinks about the sense objects. Purification of mind is absolutely necessary, without it all our spiritual endeavors are nothing, but useless show and pomp. It is therefore, better for one to take only what he can digest and assimilate. My treasury is full and I can give anyone, what he wants, but I have to see, whether he is qualified to receive My gift. If you listen to Me carefully, you will be certainly benefited. While sitting in this Masjid I never speak any untruth.”

When a guest is invited to a house all the members of the household and other friends and relations, that happen to be present are entertained along with the guest. So all those, that were present in the Masjid at that time could partake of the spiritual feast, that was served by Baba for the rich gentleman. After getting Baba’s blessings, one and all, including the gentleman, left the place quite happy and contented.


The immediate feeling would be that we are not the person in the story, but we must place ourselves before ourselves, and keep ourselves in razors edge and see where we really stand. First and foremost thing i personally feel really essential is nurturing humility, without humility nothing can really prosper. we should have such humility that we do not even say in the voice like nothing else is required, only this is required, who knows what really may be required by us? we have to be humble enough to be thrown here and there by Bhagavan's will or the will of Self. we have to become NOTHING, this is annihilation of ego, Shunya Sampaadyam, the earning of  Shunyatvam. If Ego is really killed, why should it matter if one has to do upasana or not or fast or not? what matters? be ready to be thrown about here and there, this is annihilation of ego, that which opines that this is not required and this alone would suffice is to add fuel to the ego in subtle form, that will continue for ever. There are subtle things, we fail to take notice, and it is only because of lack of humilty. This is not acquisition on anybody, these are just personal musing. Be so humble that you simply disappear in the will of God or Self.

Thanks for opportunity!

--
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 10:54:34 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #729 on: September 04, 2013, 10:48:48 AM »
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This is typical of Sri Bhagavan;He expects everyone to be utterly sensitive and aware and rise to the occassion.He does not 'spoon feed'.He does not 'Tutor'.He only throws 'hints'.The Onus is on the aspirant.He has to rise to the required level.This does not mean -'I can do the way I wish'.The aspirant has to constantly be doing the 'Homework' and everyday come up with something better than what he has been doing in the yester years.This Very spirit or 'Obsession' is Earnestness.

The above quote is from Sri Ravi from Anil's thread . I did not want to disturb that thread with my discussion of the above quote and hence sharing it here .
Ravi has pointed out very clearly where the problem lies when we interpret Jnani's like Sri Ramana .The problem is many people lack the fundamentals and try to build a huge structure without the basic fundamentals . Bhagavan's message is very simple and direct for the most mature spiritual person but it is very vague and confusing for the unripe /immature spiritual person .
I will give an example from my own family itself . A few cousins of mine decided Sri Ramana to be their one and only Guru and removed all other pics of other family deities from their puja altar and kept only Bhagavan's Pic . They believed that they have surrendered completely to Bhagavan .They used to go to Ramanaashram when they get time . But apart from that they were neither serious in doing the atma vichara of Bhagavan nor reading his works daily or regularly attending any form of Ramana Satsangh .
Things were going smoothly ( they never had any major problem ) but then suddenly their mother was diagnoised with Cancer , then they just became highly insecure and thought the Gods are punishing them for removing their pics , the Kula Deivam is Punishing them ( they also stopped visiting our Kula Deivam and thought Visit to Ramana Asharm was more than enough ) and started visiting our Kula Deivam , did abhisheikam to our Kula Deivyam ,started running around all the temples nearby , doing puja , collecting Vibhuti , Kumkum etc . Still the Cancer was not receding .They were only symbolically praying to Bhagavan Ramana but their thoughts were on how best to mitigate this problem through some pariharams .  They consulted astrologers , naadi jyotisham etc  . Last they felt that they need the help of a Living Guru and they had someone who was close to Sawmi Nityananda ( this was before the scandal came out ) and at that time Nitayananda was popular for healing people whatever may be their condition .They had a personal meeting with him and were highly impressed by his talk and his assurances . He gave them some prasad and told them do some chanting and since he was busy at that time he could not meet their mother and told no problem next time he will follow it up .But within a few days he was caught in the TV Sting operation and my cousins were devastated . By this time  their mothers condition was slowly sinking and she passed out a couple of months later .

This is not the condition of just my cousins .I see this trait in many of my friends etc who say they have surrendered to Bhagavan Ramana ,Arunachala and swear they are their only Gurus and when a slight problem comes in their life ( like loss of job , some medical operation to be done , financial / domestic problem etc ) they run to astrologers , naadi jyotisam , Godmen ,their kula deivam , doing all pariharams etc . These people actually do not do any form of sadhana in their own day to day life . These people are very spiritually lazy ( i.e lazy to do what is basically done in every Hindu household as lighting lamp , doing daily nitya karma , some chanting and scriptural study , observing fasts , doing monthly ammavasya , annual sharddham for parents , visiting Kula Deivam once a year etc etc ) and to cover this laziness they  boast that  these are kindergarden stuff and they consider themselves to be  highly  evolved to practice Bhagavan's teachings directly and the fact is they neither do that also properly . These people have no dietary discipline, have strange sleep hours ,watch lot of TV , surf lot of internet ,and just once in while get emotion with regard to Bhagavan Ramana and Arunacahala when they visit there or read a book of his  . They neither read his works regularly , nor attend Ramana Satsangs or have satsanghs in their own house  but get  terribly shaken up with the slightest problem in their life .
I am also not in favor of people doing daily rituals but at least that must be compensated by other form of some sattvic sadhanas like taking sattvic food , having satsangs at house or attending satsangs , reading regularly the divine works and learning to face difficulty without running to astrologers, sooth sayers , Godmen especially when you say you have surrendered to a great Jnani like Bhagavan Ramana .

We need to be honest withourselves as to where we stand . My test for spiritual maturity is not what you talk when things go fine in your life but how you behave when crisis comes in your life . There is nothing wrong in sincerely attempting and being a failure in our sadhana but deluding ourselves that we are great  sadhaks and are ready for the direct path  when we have barely put the basic foundation in place is a dangerous thing especially when we have no living  Guru to point our flaws and guide us .

But I also wish to point out that my views above are based on the people whom I interact with close by and  should not be taken as an opinion of all the other serious Ramana devotees many of whom I may not have met .I have also seen some genuine followers of Bhagavan and who have totally surrendered to him and most of such people have either moved in to Ramana Ashram , or Thiruvanamalai and some silently keep following his teachings at their home  . These people care a damn for money or body illness but that number is in a minority in what I have personally seen .
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 11:33:28 AM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #730 on: September 04, 2013, 10:55:58 AM »
Dear Atmavichar,

excellent exprssions!

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॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ksksat27

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #731 on: September 04, 2013, 10:05:55 PM »
Quote
This is typical of Sri Bhagavan;He expects everyone to be utterly sensitive and aware and rise to the occassion.He does not 'spoon feed'.He does not 'Tutor'.He only throws 'hints'.The Onus is on the aspirant.He has to rise to the required level.This does not mean -'I can do the way I wish'.The aspirant has to constantly be doing the 'Homework' and everyday come up with something better than what he has been doing in the yester years.This Very spirit or 'Obsession' is Earnestness.

The above quote is from Sri Ravi from Anil's thread . I did not want to disturb that thread with my discussion of the above quote and hence sharing it here .
Ravi has pointed out very clearly where the problem lies when we interpret Jnani's like Sri Ramana .The problem is many people lack the fundamentals and try to build a huge structure without the basic fundamentals . Bhagavan's message is very simple and direct for the most mature spiritual person but it is very vague and confusing for the unripe /immature spiritual person .
I will give an example from my own family itself . A few cousins of mine decided Sri Ramana to be their one and only Guru and removed all other pics of other family deities from their puja altar and kept only Bhagavan's Pic . They believed that they have surrendered completely to Bhagavan .They used to go to Ramanaashram when they get time . But apart from that they were neither serious in doing the atma vichara of Bhagavan nor reading his works daily or regularly attending any form of Ramana Satsangh .
Things were going smoothly ( they never had any major problem ) but then suddenly their mother was diagnoised with Cancer , then they just became highly insecure and thought the Gods are punishing them for removing their pics , the Kula Deivam is Punishing them ( they also stopped visiting our Kula Deivam and thought Visit to Ramana Asharm was more than enough ) and started visiting our Kula Deivam , did abhisheikam to our Kula Deivyam ,started running around all the temples nearby , doing puja , collecting Vibhuti , Kumkum etc . Still the Cancer was not receding .They were only symbolically praying to Bhagavan Ramana but their thoughts were on how best to mitigate this problem through some pariharams .  They consulted astrologers , naadi jyotisham etc  . Last they felt that they need the help of a Living Guru and they had someone who was close to Sawmi Nityananda ( this was before the scandal came out ) and at that time Nitayananda was popular for healing people whatever may be their condition .They had a personal meeting with him and were highly impressed by his talk and his assurances . He gave them some prasad and told them do some chanting and since he was busy at that time he could not meet their mother and told no problem next time he will follow it up .But within a few days he was caught in the TV Sting operation and my cousins were devastated . By this time  their mothers condition was slowly sinking and she passed out a couple of months later .

This is not the condition of just my cousins .I see this trait in many of my friends etc who say they have surrendered to Bhagavan Ramana ,Arunachala and swear they are their only Gurus and when a slight problem comes in their life ( like loss of job , some medical operation to be done , financial / domestic problem etc ) they run to astrologers , naadi jyotisam , Godmen ,their kula deivam , doing all pariharams etc . These people actually do not do any form of sadhana in their own day to day life . These people are very spiritually lazy ( i.e lazy to do what is basically done in every Hindu household as lighting lamp , doing daily nitya karma , some chanting and scriptural study , observing fasts , doing monthly ammavasya , annual sharddham for parents , visiting Kula Deivam once a year etc etc ) and to cover this laziness they  boast that  these are kindergarden stuff and they consider themselves to be  highly  evolved to practice Bhagavan's teachings directly and the fact is they neither do that also properly . These people have no dietary discipline, have strange sleep hours ,watch lot of TV , surf lot of internet ,and just once in while get emotion with regard to Bhagavan Ramana and Arunacahala when they visit there or read a book of his  . They neither read his works regularly , nor attend Ramana Satsangs or have satsanghs in their own house  but get  terribly shaken up with the slightest problem in their life .
I am also not in favor of people doing daily rituals but at least that must be compensated by other form of some sattvic sadhanas like taking sattvic food , having satsangs at house or attending satsangs , reading regularly the divine works and learning to face difficulty without running to astrologers, sooth sayers , Godmen especially when you say you have surrendered to a great Jnani like Bhagavan Ramana .

We need to be honest withourselves as to where we stand . My test for spiritual maturity is not what you talk when things go fine in your life but how you behave when crisis comes in your life . There is nothing wrong in sincerely attempting and being a failure in our sadhana but deluding ourselves that we are great  sadhaks and are ready for the direct path  when we have barely put the basic foundation in place is a dangerous thing especially when we have no living  Guru to point our flaws and guide us .

But I also wish to point out that my views above are based on the people whom I interact with close by and  should not be taken as an opinion of all the other serious Ramana devotees many of whom I may not have met .I have also seen some genuine followers of Bhagavan and who have totally surrendered to him and most of such people have either moved in to Ramana Ashram , or Thiruvanamalai and some silently keep following his teachings at their home  . These people care a damn for money or body illness but that number is in a minority in what I have personally seen .

Dear Atmavichar sir,

The 10 qualifications or so you have put here --  all will automatically come to one who is tyring to put into practice self enquiry. Bhagavan Ramana cleary told in Naan Yaar that instead of thinking and crying one is a sinner, one should practice self enquiry.  There is no qualification needed to do self enquiry.  Only sincerity and earnestness is needed.  And anybody who does self enquiry will not actually be gauging whether he is in advanced stage or not, because there are only two stages here, either you are self realized or not (whether be a advanced yogi or dog eater)

So whenever this ego comes of 'i am advanced' one must ask 'who thinks he is advanced?'

There is lot of difference between Bhagavan Ramana's self enquiry and the traditional vedantic teacher's insistence. Here in Bhagavan Ramana's method ,  no qualification is needed.  Door is open to all. Ofcourse one who has got interest in self enquiry need not even read anybody else opinion . He will start carrying out the instructions.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #732 on: September 04, 2013, 11:02:20 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

i really like your sweet earnestness:

What I have observed both on Thakur and Shirdi Sai Baba is --  they seemed to met lot of people with different mind inclinations to such a degreet that there is no central core message they delivered.

 :D

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #733 on: September 04, 2013, 11:13:58 PM »
ksksat(Krishna),
You have posted the following:
1.that you have read 'extracts' from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
2.They seemed to meet lot of people with different mind inclinations to such a degreet that there is no central core message they delivered.(Sri Ramakrishna and Sai Baba)
3.I will later create a separate topic on how each Guru has his own style of dealing with our minds.

I suggest that before you do that,you spend time with The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna and discover -'The Central theme' as you call it.

Just to aid you,I will give this excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,a story told by the Master:
"There was a king who used to listen daily to a pundit's exposition of the Bhagavata. Every day at the end of their study the pundit would ask the king, 'O King, have you understood what I have read?' To this question the king would daily give the same reply: 'Sir, you had better understand it first yourself.' Each day, when the pundit returned home, he would ponder the meaning of the king's words. He was a pious man, devoted to prayer and meditation. Gradually he came to his senses and realized that the only real thing in the world is the Lotus Feet of God, and that all else is illusory. He felt dispassion for the world and took up the life of a monk. As he was leaving the world he sent a man to the king with the message: 'Yes, O King! Now I have understood.'

Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #734 on: September 04, 2013, 11:28:39 PM »
I think that the central message in Shirdi Sai Baba is complete surrender to Guru, faith in God, Shraddha (faith) ad Saburi (perseverance, patience).
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