Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 365869 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #510 on: December 07, 2012, 11:25:42 AM »
Nagaraj,
Thanks very much for that wonderful transcript of the talk by Sri Nochur.I totally concur and appreciate every single word in that talk.Sri Nochur has this rare gift of talking from the Heart and not from the Head!Truly a Great soul.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #511 on: December 10, 2012, 06:39:00 AM »
Friends,
The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is a wonderful guide to all aspirants.All the sayings of the Master
are easily intelligible and need no interpretation.He himself explains clearly what he means.
Here is such an example:

"There are certain signs of God-realization. The man in whom longing for God manifests
its glories is not far from attaining Him. What are the glories of that longing? They are
discrimination, dispassion, compassion for living beings, serving holy men, loving their
company, chanting the name and glories of God, telling the truth, and the like. When you
see those signs of longing in an aspirant, you can rightly say that for him the vision of God
is not far to seek
.
The state of a servant's house will tell you unmistakably whether his master has decided to
visit it. First, the rubbish and jungle around the house are cleared up. Second, the soot and
dirt are removed from the rooms. Third, the courtyard, floors, and other places are swept
clean. Finally the master himself sends various things to the house such as a carpet, a
hubble-bubble for smoking, and the like. When you see these things arriving, you conclude
that the master will very soon come"

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #512 on: December 17, 2012, 12:19:14 PM »
Atmavichar/Friends,
"
Quote
But the next question asked is Bubble /wave is similar in substance with Ocean but differs in their strength i.e strength and energy of a wave is different from strength and energy of Ocean .
I have no answer for this .I was discussing this with a friend of mine and both of us could not get an answer  So would be happy if others can share the answer to this question i.e Wave is similar to Ocean in essence but differs in its strength and energy ,so is the analogy right ?"

No analogy is complete and we need to understand this from the words of the Great ones.We cannot explain away the Bubble or wave vs River or Ocean analogy based on Rope /thread analogy.
I have posted this earlier-What it means to rid oneself of the 'Ego'.Here is a passage from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

"One can get rid of the ego after the attainment of Knowledge. On attaining Knowledge one goes into samadhi, and the ego disappears. But it is very difficult to obtain such
Knowledge".
Seven planes of the mind
"It is said in the Vedas that a man experiences samadhi when his mind ascends to the seventh plane. The ego can disappear only when one goes into samadhi. Where does the
mind of a man ordinarily dwell? In the first three planes. These are at the organs of evacuation and generation, and at the navel. Then the mind is immersed only in
worldliness, attached to 'woman and gold'. A man sees the light of God when his mind dwells in the plane of the heart. He sees the light and exclaims: 'Ah! What is this? What is
this?' The next plane is at the throat. When the mind dwells there he likes to hear and talk only of God. When the mind ascends to the next plane, in the forehead, between the
eyebrows, he sees the form of Satchidānanda and desires to touch and embrace It. But he is unable to do so. It is like the light in a lantern, which you can see but cannot touch. You
feel as if you were touching the light, but in reality you are not. When the mind reaches the seventh plane, then the ego vanishes completely and the man goes into samadhi."
Indescribability of highest plane
VIJAY: "What does a man see when he attains the Knowledge of Brahman after reaching
the seventh plane?"
MASTER: "What happens when the mind reaches the seventh plane cannot be described. "Once a boat enters the 'black waters' of the ocean, it does not return. Nobody knows what
happens to the boat after that. Therefore the boat cannot give us any information about the ocean.
"Once a salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean. No sooner did it enter the water than it melted. Now who could tell how deep the ocean was? That which could have told
about its depth had melted. Reaching the seventh plane, the mind is annihilated; man goes into samadhi. What he feels then cannot be described in words.

The "wicked I"
"The 'I' that makes one a worldly person and attaches one to 'woman and gold' is the 'wicked I'. The intervention of this ego creates the difference between jiva and Atman.
Water appears to be divided into two parts if one puts a stick across it. But in reality there is only one water. It appears as two on account of the stick. This 'I' is the stick. Remove the
stick and there remains only one water as before.

"Now, what is this 'wicked I'? It is the ego that says: 'What? Don't they know me? I have so much money! Who is wealthier than I?' If a thief robs such a man of only ten rupees, first
of all he wrings the money out of the thief, then he gives him a good beating. But the matter doesn't end there: the thief is handed over to the police and is eventually sent to jail. The
'wicked I' says: 'What? Doesn't the rogue know whom he has robbed? To steal my ten rupees! How dare he?' "

VIJAY: "If without destroying the 'I' a man cannot get rid of attachment to the world and consequently cannot experience samadhi, then it would be wise for him to follow the path
of Brahmajnana to attain samadhi. If the 'I' persists in the path of devotion, then one should rather choose the path of knowledge."


Vijay is posing this question to the Master exactly like what Arjuna did to Lord Sri Krishna!
continued.....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #513 on: December 17, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »
Atmavichar/Friends,
The Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued.....

The "servant I"
MASTER: "It is true that one or two can get rid of the 'I' through samadhi; but these cases are very rare. You may indulge in thousands of reasonings, but still the 'I' comes back. You
may cut the peepal-tree to the very root today, but you will notice a sprout springing up tomorrow. Therefore if the 'I' must remain, let the rascal remain as the 'servant I'. As long as
you live, you should say, 'O God, Thou art the Master and I am Thy servant.' The 'I' that feels, 'I am the servant of God, I am His devotee' does not injure one. Sweet things cause
acidity of the stomach, no doubt, but sugar candy is an exception.

"The path of knowledge is very difficult. One cannot obtain Knowledge unless one gets rid of the feeling that one is the body(It is not enough to 'think' that one is not body-ravi). In the Kaliyuga the life of man is centred on food. He cannot get rid of the feeling that he is the body and the ego. Therefore the path of devotion
is prescribed for this cycle.
This is an easy path. You will attain God if you sing His name and glories and pray to Him with a longing heart. There is not the least doubt about it.
"Suppose you draw a line on the surface of water with a bamboo stick. The water appears to be divided into two parts; but the line doesn't remain for any length of time. The 'servant
I'or the 'devotee I' or the 'child I' is only a line drawn with the ego and is not real".
The "ego of a devotee"
VIJAY (to the Master): "Sir, you ask us to renounce the 'wicked I'. Is there any harm in the
'servant I'?"
MASTER: "The 'servant I'-that is, the feeling, 'I am the servant of God, I am the devotee of God'-does not injure one. On the contrary, it helps one to realize God."
VIJAY: "Well, sir, what becomes of the lust, anger, and other passions of one who keeps
the 'servant I'?"
MASTER: "If a man truly feels like that, then he has only the semblance of lust, anger, and the like. If, after attaining God, he looks on himself as the servant or the devotee of God,
then he cannot injure anyone. By touching the philosopher's stone a sword is turned into gold. It keeps the appearance of a sword but cannot injure.
"When the dry branch of a coconut palm drops to the ground, it leaves only a mark on the trunk indicating that once there was a branch at that place. In like manner, he who has
attained God keeps only an appearance of ego; there remains in him only a semblance of anger and lust. He becomes like a child. A child has no attachment to the three gunassattva,
rajas, and tamas. He becomes as quickly detached from a thing as he becomes attached to it. You can cajole him out of a cloth worth five rupees with a doll worth an
anna, though at first he may say with great determination: 'No, I won't give it to you. My daddy bought it for me.' Again, all persons are the same to a child. He has no feeling of
high and low in regard to persons. So he doesn't discriminate about caste. If his mother tells him that a particular man should be regarded as an elder brother, the child will eat from the
same plate with him, though the man may belong to the low caste of a blacksmith. The child doesn't know hate, or what is holy or unholy".

"Even after attaining samadhi, some retain the 'servant ego' or the 'devotee ego'. The bhakta keeps this 'I-consciousness'. He says, 'O God, Thou art the Master and I am Thy servant;
Thou art the Lord and I am Thy devotee.' He feels that way even after the realization of God. His 'I' is not completely effaced. Again, by constantly practising this kind of 'Iconsciousness',
one ultimately attains God. This is called bhaktiyoga".

"One can attain the Knowledge of Brahman, too, by following the path of bhakti. God is all-powerful. He may give His devotee Brahmajnana also, if He so wills. But the devotee
generally doesn't seek the Knowledge of the Absolute. He would rather have the consciousness that God is the Master and he the servant, or that God is the Divine Mother
and he the child."
VIJAY: "But those who discriminate according to the Vedanta philosophy also realize Him in the end, don't they?"
Path of bhakti is easy
MASTER: "Yes, one may reach Him by following the path of discrimination too: that is called Jnanayoga. But it is an extremely difficult path. I have told you already of the seven
planes of consciousness. On reaching the seventh plane the mind goes into samadhi. If a man acquires the firm knowledge that Brahman alone is real and the world illusory, then his
mind merges in samadhi. But in the Kaliyuga the life of a man depends entirely on food. How can he have the consciousness that Brahman alone is real and the world illusory? In
the Kaliyuga it is difficult to have the feeling, 'I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am not the twenty-four cosmic principles; I am beyond pleasure and pain, I am above disease and grief, old age and death.' However you may reason and argue, the feeling that the body is identical with the soul will somehow crop up from an unexpected quarter. You may cut a peepal-tree to the ground and think it is dead to its very root, but the next morning you will find a new sprout shooting up from the dead stump. One cannot get rid of this identification with the body(This is vastly different than to be mentally convinced 'I am not the Body'-Ravi); therefore the path of bhakti is best for the people of the Kaliyuga. It is an easy path".

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #514 on: December 17, 2012, 12:38:42 PM »
Atmavichar/Friends,
The Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued....

"And, 'I don't want to become sugar; I want to eat it.' I never feel like saying, 'I am Brahman.' I say, 'Thou art my Lord and I am Thy servant.' It is better to make the mind go
up and down between the fifth and sixth planes, like a boat racing between two points. I don't want to go beyond the sixth plane and keep my mind a long time in the seventh. My
desire is to sing the name and glories of God. It is very good to look on God as the Master and oneself as His servant. Further, you see, people speak of the waves as belonging to the
Ganges; but no one says that the Ganges belongs to the waves. The feeling, 'I am He', is not wholesome
. A man who entertains such an idea, while looking on his body as the Self,
causes himself great harm. He cannot go forward in spiritual life; he drags himself down. He deceives himself as well as others. He cannot understand his own state of mind.
Prema-bhakti
"But it isn't any and every kind of bhakti that enables one to realize God. One cannot realize God without prema-bhakti. Another name for prema-bhakti is raga-bhakti. God
cannot be realized without love and longing. Unless one has learnt to love God, one cannot realize Him.
"There is another kind of bhakti, known as vaidhi-bhakti, according to which one must repeat the name of God a fixed number of times, fast, make pilgrimages, worship God with
prescribed offerings, make so many sacrifices, and so forth and so on. By continuing such practices a long time one gradually acquires raga-bhakti. God cannot be realized until one
has raga-bhakti. One must love God. In order to realize God one must be completely free from worldliness and direct all of one's mind to Him".

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #515 on: December 17, 2012, 06:16:31 PM »
udai,

"Dwelling on the words of the Great ones is satsangha(Spiritual company)and Sadhana (spiritual Practice)as well"

This also means that Debating and arguing about it is not helpful,for the one who initiates it or the one one who allows himself to be dragged into it.Also,temporary withdrawal from this habit,does not cure it. :)

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #516 on: December 17, 2012, 07:31:50 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Very much Yes. The old saying is sravanam, mananam, nidhidhyasanam. No mention about tarkam!

Tarkam takes us no further. Saint Tayumnavar heard only Oru Sol - one word. Summa Iru. So also Tinnai Swami and others.

Arunachala Siva.

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #517 on: December 17, 2012, 09:53:29 PM »
Quote
The path of knowledge is very difficult. One cannot obtain Knowledge unless one gets rid of the feeling that one is the body(It is not enough to 'think' that one is not body-ravi).

That is the key . One can have a superficial/theoretical  idea that one is not the body / mind but to live that way is quite a challenge .If we admire Bhagwan Ramana it is because he lived that way .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #518 on: December 17, 2012, 09:57:23 PM »
Quote
Further, you see, people speak of the waves as belonging to the
Ganges; but no one says that the Ganges belongs to the waves. The feeling, 'I am He', is not wholesome

Ravi

In fact the doubt about the Wave/Ocean that I mentioned came when me and my friend were sitting on the Banks of the River Ganges in Rishikesh 2 years back .Seeing the full flow of Ganges we started to discuss no doubt every wave on this Ganges can identity itself with the  full Ganges and say it is also Ganges but what about the strength and energy of Ganges in its totality ,which wave can compare itself to that aspect of Ganges .

Om Peace
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #519 on: December 18, 2012, 09:14:41 AM »
Quote
Dear Atmavichar,
       :)
"It is not enough to 'think' that one is not body"
:) Use Reasoning also. Then it would be enough. See my above post.

Tushnim

I never made the above  highlighted statement .

I was only commenting on the following statement of Sri Ramakrishna
Quote
The path of knowledge is very difficult .One cannot obtain Knowledge unless one gets rid of the feeling that one is the body

I said that  it is quite a challenge to live like that in day to day life and we admire Bhagwan Ramana because he lived like that .
I would like to add further here that the above Highlighted statement of Sri Ramakrishna is similar to what Annamalai Swamy said i.e greatest sin is identifying with the body and that leads to all other sins .
So I feel we know this in theory but as we are highly conditioned by our attachment to our body and mind , it is quite a challenge to overcome this attachment . Might be we can do this when things are favorable to us but not when things go against us like when we have severe body pain , illness ,sickness etc .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #520 on: December 18, 2012, 09:28:33 AM »
udai/friends,
I recall a funny incident that happened a long while ago.One of my mother's cousin was invested with Sacred thread and he was initiated into sandhya by the sastrigal(vedic priest).After achamanam ,prayer to Lord Ganesa,the sastrigal told him to ' hold the nostril' (preparatory to learning pranayama).Prompltly the 'initiate' took hold of the sastrigal's nose,and the poor sastrigal had to gasp for his breath!This actually happened!
So,reasoning,etc are all to convince oneself only,if required;Not to convince others.Tarka ,employed to convince others is only 'debate'(like trying to catch the other person's nose!) and is not productive.To understand this is not difficult.
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #521 on: December 18, 2012, 09:30:02 AM »
Dear Atmavichar,
        :) Sorry for misinterpreting your statement, if i did so.

If one is attached to body, then here is a clear instruction by Ribhu Gita:

aham brahmasmi aham mantraha sarva-tantram vinashayet
aham brahmasmi aham mantrah deha dosham vinashayet |

I am Brahman, Brahman Am i .. this mahtra destroys all rituals.
I am Brahman, Brahman am I, this mantra destroys the mistaken identity on the body.

----------------------------------------------------------
Annamalai Swami did support this statement in his teachings.
Sri Ramakrishna also did , may be he was not as eloquent in this teaching.
I stand with the Ribhu Gita, Ashtavakra Gita style... Ribhu Gita also propounds that
the easiest way to revert to Self is to see that the world is a mirage and I am the Self.


There is really no other way dear atmavichar. Only

Tushnim
Forget attachment to body . Even if coffee spills over on our best shirt / t shirt we remain upset for many days until the stain is removed  :) First we need to get away with these outer attachments ( my shirt , my computer , my IPOD  , my house , my car etc   :) and then come to body , mind ,emotions  :)
At least I am still in that level  :)
I do not dispute the statements of Sri Ramakrishna , Ramana , Annamalai Swamy , Ribhu Gita etc only pointing out the day to day challenge of living that way .Not impossible but highly difficult and if at all we admire Ramana it was due to his living such a life all throughout inspite of going through lot of hardships .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #522 on: December 18, 2012, 09:35:33 AM »
udai,

"Sri Ramakrishna also did , may be he was not as eloquent in this teaching"

?
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #523 on: December 18, 2012, 09:40:24 AM »
udai,
You may ask the people whether they have found it helpful or not,rather than presume that it is not so.
My experience till date is that it has been helpful.I do not have anything to prove ,just offer what I have and leave it.It is not my job that I have to make the other person understand.If he is a genuine seeker,he will find the clue provided by the Guru.I have nothing to do with it.I am a postman. :)
Namaskar.


atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #524 on: December 18, 2012, 09:43:23 AM »
Dear Atmavichar,
         :) do you listen to ribhu gita ? Listen to it for a few days in the morning ... meditate on one chapter each day starting from chapter 6 or so ... and then tell me if it is difficult.
Right now doing Siva Sahasranama , Aksharamana Mala , Thiruppavai  Chanting . Last month a friend of mine sent me a surprise Gift of Ribhu Gita book ( he had already given me the Audio CD of the same from Ramana Ashram ) .I will  get the Tamil version soon and chant  both sanskrit and tamil and see if I still have attachment to my shirt first and then the body  :)

By the way the Shirt example was a real one when I visited Rishikesh last year with my brother , while changing flights at Delhi Airport ,we had a coffee and the coffee got spilled over a wonderful branded shirt of mine and I was deeply Upset over the stain  :) then my brother left over my laptop bag in the flight under the seat ( and we had already reached the other airport and about to borad the next flight to Dehradun ) and I was shocked but happy that the laptop was in his cabin luggage and only the bag got lost   :). I was very angry and upset but calmed myself thinking might be this is God way of testing how far I remain centered with these minor irritants . Luckily I did not allow the anger to get over me and passed that small test  :) But still have a long way to go  :)

Will try Ribhu Gita and let you know  :)
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha